Make these ads go away.
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11

Thread: Things that confuse me

  1. #1
    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Brigstow
    Posts
    34,497
    Local Date
    12-16-2018
    Local Time
    09:51 PM

    Things that confuse me

    This Civil Partnership thing. For those not watching, the UK has legalized different-sex civil partnerships. One male and one female, both having reached the age of consent, may now enter into a civil partnership.

    What no news site has yet said is whether they can do this if either partner is already married. It's illegal to enter a second marriage while one is still current, it's called bigamy. I've no idea what will stop someone trying a civil partnership in that circumstance.

    And can I enter a civil partnership with my sister?
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    13,298
    Local Date
    12-16-2018
    Local Time
    09:51 PM

    Re: Things that confuse me

    If they are already married why would they be interested in a civil union? Marriage is a legal contract giving each party rights - to the other's estate on death for instance and recognition of the legitimacy of any children and rights and responsibilities entailed -
    and the ceremony is either religious or secular but carried out in authorised premises in front of witnesses. A civil partnership does away with the need for ceremony and witnesses.

    It matters a great deal if there are children involved, eg. on the death of one or other partners only "legitimate" children have any legal claim to the estate otherwise they are at the whim of the relatives of the deceased. Or if the house is in one partner's name the survivor has no claim to remain in the house, it's not theirs as they don't own it even if they have been paying the mortgage. Life insurance or any death benefits through work do not automatically go to the live-in partner no matter how long they have been together. Even with wills in place family members (parents for instance who objected to the relationship) can still contest the will.

    Incidentally, this is as a result of a ruling by the European court that not allowing different sex partners the same rights as same-sex couples was against their human rights.

    No, you can't enter a civil partnership with your sister. incest is still illegal in the uk (In think) unless you are a member of the royal family. Make will to leave her all your wealth just don;t mention the sex to anyone.

  3. #3
    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Brigstow
    Posts
    34,497
    Local Date
    12-16-2018
    Local Time
    09:51 PM

    Re: Things that confuse me

    When I asked about entering a civil partnership while still being legally married I meant to a person other than the existing spouse. I should have been more explicit. Can I legally be married to A and enter a civil partnership with B?

    As for sisters, I'm not convinced that either marriage or a civil partnership involves an obligation to have sex with anyone. Some people are unable, some are unwilling, but the contract can still be entered into. Incest is defined by engaging in intercourse, not by entering a contract. Will the new law allow me to enter a civil partnership with my sister?
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

  4. #4
    Senior Member magentaflame's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Vic Aus
    Posts
    1,971
    Local Date
    12-17-2018
    Local Time
    08:51 AM

    Re: Things that confuse me

    Are you going to tell them she's your sister? I'll enter a civil partnership with you spot? You live there I'll live here. Considering it's a partnership/contract we'll send a few lewd pics (which should go a long way to consumating the relationship) and we don't have to do anyones washing . Or is it only for British citizens?

  5. #5
    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Brigstow
    Posts
    34,497
    Local Date
    12-16-2018
    Local Time
    09:51 PM

    Re: Things that confuse me

    One of the requirements is that the two people are physically present in the UK at the registration event. I'm pretty sure there's no nationality test. Those rules also apply to a UK marriage - proxy marriages are no longer allowed as far as I know.
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

  6. #6
    Proudly humble LarsMac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    usually on the road to somewhere.
    Posts
    10,236
    Local Date
    12-16-2018
    Local Time
    04:51 PM

    Re: Things that confuse me

    The idea of a "Civil Partnership" was big for a while in the US. The Gay community explored the idea as a remedy to the problem of people living together and not enjoying the same tax favors that a married couple had over being single.

    The IRS and most state legislatures, as well as Congress would have none of it.

    The Gay community later said, OK Fine we will get married.

    My sister-in-law, a CPA and Tax accountant, was all for the Civil Union idea at the time. She thought that it would solve at least the tax problem. It was not even limited to gay couples. male and female, of any sort of relationship that was not a "marriage" - Simple roommates, for example, who pooled their resources could benefit from such an arrangement.

    A bit confusing, I reckon, and I am sure that any proper legislative body could work on it a bit and make it even more so, but it could actually work, if given the chance.
    "The trouble with people isn't that they don't know, but that they know so much that ain't so." - Will Rogers

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    13,298
    Local Date
    12-16-2018
    Local Time
    09:51 PM

    Re: Things that confuse me

    "When I asked about entering a civil partnership while still being legally married I meant to a person other than the existing spouse. I should have been more explicit. Can I legally be married to A and enter a civil partnership with B?

    As for sisters, I'm not convinced that either marriage or a civil partnership involves an obligation to have sex with anyone. Some people are unable, some are unwilling, but the contract can still be entered into. Incest is defined by engaging in intercourse, not by entering a contract. Will the new law allow me to enter a civil partnership with my sister?!"

    Quotes still not working. I would assume however that you could not enter into a civil partnership if married to someone else. But if already separated or going through a divorce that might make a difference. It's not so much any tax issues but what happens on death that are more important.

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...ntestacy-rules

    "There are also some important changes to what happens if a married/civil-partnered couple have children. Under the old rules, the married partner took everything up to £250,000, with a complicated system for sharing out anything above that. Firstly, the children would receive half of the balance above £250,000 immediately (or held in trust to the age of 18). Secondly, the other half would also go to the children, but the surviving spouse would also have a “life interest” in the money while she remained alive. The life interest meant he or she could take income from the money, but not the capital.But from 1 October, the life interest concept is abolished. The surviving married partner will take all of the first £250,000 and then be fully entitled to half of the remainder. All the children will get is half of anything above £250,000 – and have to wait until 18 years old to get their hands on it.

    Pecking order

    Rules of inheritance:
    1. Children or their descendants
    2. Parents
    3. Brothers or sisters or their descendants
    4. Half siblings or their descendants
    5. Grandparents
    6. Uncles and/or aunts or their descendants
    7. Half uncles and/or aunts or their descendants
    8. Whole estate passes to the crown

    The new rules also eliminate a legal anomaly that affected adopted children. Under the old rules, if someone died leaving a child under the age of 18 who was subsequently adopted by someone else, there was a risk that the child would lose their inheritance from their natural parent. The new rules have closed that anomaly, so that there is no longer a risk of a child losing their inheritance if they are adopted after the death of their natural parent ."

    If you are co-habiting with someone (be they same sex or not and they die), even if there is a formal agreement in place that the survivor keeps everything it can be challenged by the parents or siblings of the deceased. There are many cases where a couple of different race or religion and one dies when the family has gone after the spouse/partner.

    If you are co-habiting and they end the relationship and throw you out there is very little you can do about it unless there has been a formal agreement and you can afford to go to court, a civil partnership would give the same protection as being married would.

  8. #8
    Proudly humble LarsMac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    usually on the road to somewhere.
    Posts
    10,236
    Local Date
    12-16-2018
    Local Time
    04:51 PM

    Re: Things that confuse me

    Quote Originally Posted by gmc View Post
    "When I asked about entering a civil partnership while still being legally married I meant to a person other than the existing spouse. I should have been more explicit. Can I legally be married to A and enter a civil partnership with B?

    As for sisters, I'm not convinced that either marriage or a civil partnership involves an obligation to have sex with anyone. Some people are unable, some are unwilling, but the contract can still be entered into. Incest is defined by engaging in intercourse, not by entering a contract. Will the new law allow me to enter a civil partnership with my sister?!"

    Quotes still not working. I would assume however that you could not enter into a civil partnership if married to someone else. But if already separated or going through a divorce that might make a difference. It's not so much any tax issues but what happens on death that are more important.

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...ntestacy-rules

    "There are also some important changes to what happens if a married/civil-partnered couple have children. Under the old rules, the married partner took everything up to £250,000, with a complicated system for sharing out anything above that. Firstly, the children would receive half of the balance above £250,000 immediately (or held in trust to the age of 18). Secondly, the other half would also go to the children, but the surviving spouse would also have a “life interest” in the money while she remained alive. The life interest meant he or she could take income from the money, but not the capital.But from 1 October, the life interest concept is abolished. The surviving married partner will take all of the first £250,000 and then be fully entitled to half of the remainder. All the children will get is half of anything above £250,000 – and have to wait until 18 years old to get their hands on it.

    Pecking order

    Rules of inheritance:
    1. Children or their descendants
    2. Parents
    3. Brothers or sisters or their descendants
    4. Half siblings or their descendants
    5. Grandparents
    6. Uncles and/or aunts or their descendants
    7. Half uncles and/or aunts or their descendants
    8. Whole estate passes to the crown

    The new rules also eliminate a legal anomaly that affected adopted children. Under the old rules, if someone died leaving a child under the age of 18 who was subsequently adopted by someone else, there was a risk that the child would lose their inheritance from their natural parent. The new rules have closed that anomaly, so that there is no longer a risk of a child losing their inheritance if they are adopted after the death of their natural parent ."

    If you are co-habiting with someone (be they same sex or not and they die), even if there is a formal agreement in place that the survivor keeps everything it can be challenged by the parents or siblings of the deceased. There are many cases where a couple of different race or religion and one dies when the family has gone after the spouse/partner.

    If you are co-habiting and they end the relationship and throw you out there is very little you can do about it unless there has been a formal agreement and you can afford to go to court, a civil partnership would give the same protection as being married would.
    It seems like a good idea, to me. I had some friends who were roomates since college. They bought a house together, and the legal arrangements to protect their individual interests were a nightmare. A Civil Partnership would have been the answer for them, but at the time, no such thing seemed to exists. They got a lot of flack in pursuit of the idea. A similar adventure went on with some friends in Tennessee who formed a Commune. Those folks ended up going to visit a Mennonite community to see how such things were worked out with them.
    I never did get back in touch with them, but I understand they are still there.
    "The trouble with people isn't that they don't know, but that they know so much that ain't so." - Will Rogers

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    13,298
    Local Date
    12-16-2018
    Local Time
    09:51 PM

    Re: Things that confuse me

    Quote Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
    It seems like a good idea, to me. I had some friends who were roomates since college. They bought a house together, and the legal arrangements to protect their individual interests were a nightmare. A Civil Partnership would have been the answer for them, but at the time, no such thing seemed to exists. They got a lot of flack in pursuit of the idea. A similar adventure went on with some friends in Tennessee who formed a Commune. Those folks ended up going to visit a Mennonite community to see how such things were worked out with them.
    I never did get back in touch with them, but I understand they are still there.
    In the UK we have co-ownership agreements, gets complicated if you are trying for a mortgage. Spot band I live with different legal systems - an English lawyer cannot act in Scotland and vice versa unless they take the necessary qualifications I would assume in the states it varies from state to state.

    It's an issue hanging over from the days when women could not own or in some places inherit property.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Kingston-upon-Thames
    Posts
    5,092
    Local Date
    12-16-2018
    Local Time
    10:51 PM

    Re: Things that confuse me

    Register to remove this ad.
    I'm pretty sure I saw something on the BBC site about sisters who were going to enter into a Civil partnership but didn't look into it and I'm steering clear of the news for now.

    My guess would be that a Civil Partnership would count as equivalent to a marriage for legal purposes but that might need to be tested in the Courts before we could know for sure...
    The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
    Lone voice: "I'm not."

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts