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Thread: The Red Tent

  1. #21
    Senior Member Bryn Mawr's Avatar
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    Re: The Red Tent

    Quote Originally Posted by tude dog View Post
    I don't think I would play nice with a dirtbag who raped my sister.
    There's no suggestion of rape in the Bible, just that the couple consummated the engagement rather than the marriage :-

    And his soul clave unto Dinah and he loved the damsel and spake kindly unto her. And he spake unto his father saying "Get me this damsel to wife"

    Indeed, the Bible states that Shechem was honourable and that the sons of Jacob acted deceitfully.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Bryn Mawr's Avatar
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    Re: The Red Tent

    Quote Originally Posted by gmc View Post
    Morality is relative especially to a religious person. Read the bible it's OK to lie to someone of as different faith or take their land and women because they are not of your faith on the other hand it's immoral to cheat a fellow believer. The bits about who can be enslaved and under what ciurcumstances are particularly enlightening. The chosen people can take what they want and by the way the rights of women don't feature at all since they are cursed by god and should know their place.
    And for this reason I've always seen the Old Testament as a history of the people rather than scripture.

    Historically Christianity grew out of Judaism and therefore included the Torah into their scripture. Why the council of Nicosia felt the need to go further than that and include the histories I do not know.

    Of course, being Genesis, this story is part of the Pentateuch anyway.

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    Re: The Red Tent

    Just to add that in societies where oral history is the only means of transmission of ideas down generations, stories are very powerful things indeed. So while there would likely be some comic elements, mostly they deal with much more serious stuff and give examples of how to deal with issues and people and how they worked in the past. The Old Testament is an example, imo, as are the Icelandic Sagas or the Mabinogion or the Iliad and so on.

    ...I also wonder if the Old Testament God is in fact a petrochemical/geological phenomenon: They are wandering around in a region where natural crude is at or close below the surface of the earth, they follow a pillar of smoke and fire, talk to a burning bush and have walls fall down...
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    Re: The Red Tent

    Quote Originally Posted by Clodhopper View Post
    ...I also wonder if the Old Testament God is in fact a petrochemical/geological phenomenon: They are wandering around in a region where natural crude is at or close below the surface of the earth, they follow a pillar of smoke and fire, talk to a burning bush and have walls fall down...
    All of which is common on the East side of the Red Sea, in Asir and the Yemen, but not anywhere west of the Jordan or the Sinai. There's a famous 80s book, The Bible Came From Arabia, which goes into convincing detail.
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    Premium Member tude dog's Avatar
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    Re: The Red Tent

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryn Mawr View Post
    There's no suggestion of rape in the Bible, just that the couple consummated the engagement rather than the marriage :-

    And his soul clave unto Dinah and he loved the damsel and spake kindly unto her. And he spake unto his father saying "Get me this damsel to wife"

    Indeed, the Bible states that Shechem was honourable and that the sons of Jacob acted deceitfully.
    Here is one translation.

    he took her, lay with her, and violated her.

    Other translations are like humbled and dishonored. In context sounds like by force.

    Anyway, her brothers were not in the mood to have any of that.
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Bryn Mawr's Avatar
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    Re: The Red Tent

    Quote Originally Posted by tude dog View Post
    Here is one translation.

    he took her, lay with her, and violated her.

    Other translations are like humbled and dishonored. In context sounds like by force.

    Anyway, her brothers were not in the mood to have any of that.
    There are many translations and each has its own agenda, the one I gave was from the KJV and had no such connotation.

    Whatever, had the brothers acted with honour then they would have said that they could not accept redress. As it was they acted deceitfully and threw away their honour.

  7. #27
    Proudly humble LarsMac's Avatar
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    Re: The Red Tent

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryn Mawr View Post
    There's no suggestion of rape in the Bible, just that the couple consummated the engagement rather than the marriage :-

    And his soul clave unto Dinah and he loved the damsel and spake kindly unto her. And he spake unto his father saying "Get me this damsel to wife"

    Indeed, the Bible states that Shechem was honourable and that the sons of Jacob acted deceitfully.
    Well, From What I can see, there did seem to be an issue:

    KJV
    And Dinah the daughter of Leah, which she bare unto Jacob, went out to see the daughters of the land.

    2 And when Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, prince of the country, saw her, he took her, and lay with her, and defiled her.
    NIV
    Now Dinah, the daughter Leah had borne to Jacob, went out to visit the women of the land. 2 When Shechem son of Hamor the Hivite, the ruler of that area, saw her, he took her and raped her. 3 His heart was drawn to Dinah daughter of Jacob; he loved the young woman and spoke tenderly to her. 4 And Shechem said to his father Hamor, “Get me this girl as my wife.”
    If someone defiled my sister, or daughter, I think that I would be a bit peeved, to say the least. Of course the KJV used language that might be interpreted to mean he seduced her, and maybe had implied permission. In interesting twist of words in a world dominated by males. (That conversation goes on all too often in today's world. )
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Bryn Mawr's Avatar
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    Re: The Red Tent

    Quote Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
    Well, From What I can see, there did seem to be an issue:

    KJV

    NIV


    If someone defiled my sister, or daughter, I think that I would be a bit peeved, to say the least. Of course the KJV used language that might be interpreted to mean he seduced her, and maybe had implied permission. In interesting twist of words in a world dominated by males. (That conversation goes on all too often in today's world. )
    I certainly read the defilement as spoiling the property and lessening its value in the eyes of the brothers.

    It would be interesting to see the connotations in the original Aramaic as opposed to the prejudices of the translators

  9. #29
    Proudly humble LarsMac's Avatar
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    Re: The Red Tent

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryn Mawr View Post
    I certainly read the defilement as spoiling the property and lessening its value in the eyes of the brothers.

    It would be interesting to see the connotations in the original Aramaic as opposed to the prejudices of the translators
    Since this is from the Torah, I am not sure how Aramaic plays into it.
    If we are going to allow our own prejudices to influence our interpretations, then why should we not consider those of the translators?
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Bryn Mawr's Avatar
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    Re: The Red Tent

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    Quote Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
    Since this is from the Torah, I am not sure how Aramaic plays into it.
    If we are going to allow our own prejudices to influence our interpretations, then why should we not consider those of the translators?
    My understanding is that the majority of the Old Testament was written in Aramaic.

    If we are going to remove prejudice from our interpretations then we *have* to go back to the original source and work from that - we still won't succeed but unless we do that we have no hope.

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