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Thread: Explain how male and female is not a creation.

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    Senior Member Mickiel's Avatar
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    Explain how male and female is not a creation.

    You ever wonder how non creationists explain male and female? Okay let's agree that it's an idea. Alright then who's idea? In raw evloution there cannot be an idea or a plan, because that would denote a personage , so that can only be used in creationism.

    Evolution has no ideas. So what then is male and female? Its brilliant for one thing but "Why" male and female? Is it a concept that was self inheirtant and self developed? Who developed it? Well in evolution there is no "Who" where the origin of things is concerned.

    Male and female is an excellent design , but we cannot use that if we embrace mindless existence, because design demands there be a designer. So where does male and female come from?

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    Senior Member Bryn Mawr's Avatar
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    Re: Explain how male and female is not a creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
    You ever wonder how non creationists explain male and female? Okay let's agree that it's an idea. Alright then who's idea? In raw evloution there cannot be an idea or a plan, because that would denote a personage , so that can only be used in creationism.

    Evolution has no ideas. So what then is male and female? Its brilliant for one thing but "Why" male and female? Is it a concept that was self inheirtant and self developed? Who developed it? Well in evolution there is no "Who" where the origin of things is concerned.

    Male and female is an excellent design , but we cannot use that if we embrace mindless existence, because design demands there be a designer. So where does male and female come from?
    Male and female is not a design, it's evolved that way because it is the most efficient way of introducing change into a species.

    In the beginning there was asexual reproduction where a single cellular organism split into two identical daughters, a process called mitosis. In evolutionary terms this is inefficient as the only change comes from mutation (which, given the higher radiation levels would have been more common but still not efficient).

    One of those mutations would have led to the daughter cells being haploid, only having half of the chromosomes of the parent. OK, this would have happened many millions of times before the next stage occurred and progress was made as two of these haploid daughter cell merged to form a diploid cell similar to the parent, the benefit being that the two haploid cells would have come from two different parents and thus the offspring would be a combination of their genotypes rather than a clone.

    The problem with your argument is its insistence on "who". With evolution there is no reliance of a director of operations, there are billions of trials, most of which are less efficient and therefore die out but some of which are more efficient and therefore succeed. It is not conscious design it is massively redundant trial and error finding the most efficient pattern (that will itself be superseded by a more efficient pattern at some point in the future).

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    Senior Member Mickiel's Avatar
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    Re: Explain how male and female is not a creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryn Mawr View Post
    Male and female is not a design, it's evolved that way because it is the most efficient way of introducing change into a species.

    In the beginning there was asexual reproduction where a single cellular organism split into two identical daughters, a process called mitosis. In evolutionary terms this is inefficient as the only change comes from mutation (which, given the higher radiation levels would have been more common but still not efficient).

    One of those mutations would have led to the daughter cells being haploid, only having half of the chromosomes of the parent. OK, this would have happened many millions of times before the next stage occurred and progress was made as two of these haploid daughter cell merged to form a diploid cell similar to the parent, the benefit being that the two haploid cells would have come from two different parents and thus the offspring would be a combination of their genotypes rather than a clone.

    The problem with your argument is its insistence on "who". With evolution there is no reliance of a director of operations, there are billions of trials, most of which are less efficient and therefore die out but some of which are more efficient and therefore succeed. It is not conscious design it is massively redundant trial and error finding the most efficient pattern (that will itself be superseded by a more efficient pattern at some point in the future).


    The problem with your argument is obvious , you are willing to sell the magnificence and beauty of the splendor of life, to the stupor of trial and error , as if life was the result of a casino that creates only when it lines up right and hits the scientific Jack pot.

    In that insensitive model , male and female are the result of endless spins of a wheel of long-term luck and mindless pot luck power.

    You cannot remove the plan that birthed humanity , without reducing us to clones of the uncredible minds of reckless men who are afraid of their origin. No evolution can create gender. The problem with most views of evolution is that they have no creative thought.

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    Senior Member Bryn Mawr's Avatar
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    Re: Explain how male and female is not a creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
    The problem with your argument is obvious , you are willing to sell the magnificence and beauty of the splendor of life, to the stupor of trial and error , as if life was the result of a casino that creates only when it lines up right and hits the scientific Jack pot.

    In that insensitive model , male and female are the result of endless spins of a wheel of long-term luck and mindless pot luck power.

    You cannot remove the plan that birthed humanity , without reducing us to clones of the uncredible minds of reckless men who are afraid of their origin. No evolution can create gender. The problem with most views of evolution is that they have no creative thought.
    Then we will obviously have to agree to disagree, there is no reply to this emotive missive.

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    Senior Member Mickiel's Avatar
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    Re: Explain how male and female is not a creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryn Mawr View Post
    Then we will obviously have to agree to disagree, there is no reply to this emotive missive.
    I agree to disagree .

    I fail to see a thing like gender , the anatomy of humans , the physical universe, the animal kingdom and so much more to be the result of redundant , non thinking, unplanned massive power that created itself from nothing. Something cannot bring itself into existence, since it must exist to bring itself into existence.

    Its asking a lot to give our existence over to random theory, that we split into gender like we were "Supposed to".

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    Proudly humble LarsMac's Avatar
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    Re: Explain how male and female is not a creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
    I agree to disagree .

    I fail to see a thing like gender , the anatomy of humans , the physical universe, the animal kingdom and so much more to be the result of redundant , non thinking, unplanned massive power that created itself from nothing. Something cannot bring itself into existence, since it must exist to bring itself into existence.

    Its asking a lot to give our existence over to random theory, that we split into gender like we were "Supposed to".
    Since the Universe has been around for millions of years, I suspect it has had time to come up with some pretty amazing stuff, all by its own self.
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    Senior Member Mickiel's Avatar
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    Re: Explain how male and female is not a creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
    Since the Universe has been around for millions of years, I suspect it has had time to come up with some pretty amazing stuff, all by its own self.
    The universe is a descriptive term that describes a location of a very large physical place , you are willing to treat the universe as if it thinks , plans , creates and solves problems. Its your God: your creator.
    You seem to believe that the universe is the parent of humanity.

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    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: Explain how male and female is not a creation.

    The divide is between those who regard the cause as aware, and those who regard the cause as the natural expression of physics. If it's aware then it can legitimately carry the label God, if it has no will then I don't see that the word God is appropriate.

    Neither Bryn not Lars nor myself see any evidence that the universe thinks, plans, creates or solves problems. Those are all attributes of awareness.
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    Proudly humble LarsMac's Avatar
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    Re: Explain how male and female is not a creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
    The universe is a descriptive term that describes a location of a very large physical place , you are willing to treat the universe as if it thinks , plans , creates and solves problems. Its your God: your creator.
    You seem to believe that the universe is the parent of humanity.
    I would not go that far, though after several billion years, it would not surprise me in the least were I to discover that the Universe had developed some sentience.

    How that has to do with the concept of male/female. But if you believe that is indicative of a Conscience in the universe, perhaps you can explain why Plants, Insects, and even most species of worms, Crustaceans, Molusks, and many microorganisms appear to have multiple genders.
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    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: Explain how male and female is not a creation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
    I would not go that far, though after several billion years, it would not surprise me in the least were I to discover that the Universe had developed some sentience.
    I have no problem with that. There's a difference between an emergent awareness such as you're suggesting and an intelligent primal cause bringing creation into existence through an exercise of will. As for its then biblically tyrannizing all creation, that's sheer obscene fantasy.
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