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Thread: English independence

  1. #1
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    English independence

    So it looks like the english may soon be independent - or to be more accurate that part of thye country governed by westminster

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/17...s-westminster/

    Do you think they will cope without the scottish subsidy and where on earth will they put the trident submarines as well as the thirty mothballed nuclear submarines sitting around rosyth and devonport. Given that the tories couldn't negotiate their way to buy a kitkat in a teaschop the futiure for them outside europe in thrall to donald trump and his really great trade deal looks bleak to put it mildly. Where do we send the food parcels and how do we keep all the refugees from crossing in to scotland? No doubt farage will blame the eu.

    I think these guys have a relvance in todays england, imagine if the farages hadn't come here from france and boris's german ancestors had stayed at nome.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diggers

    "An undercurrent of political thought which has run through English society for many generations and resurfaced from time to time (for example, in the Peasants' Revolt in 1381) was present in some of the political factions of the 17th century, including those who formed the Diggers.[citation needed] It involved the common belief that England had become subjugated by the "Norman Yoke". This legend offered an explanation that at one time a golden Era had existed in England before the Norman Conquest in 1066. From the Conquest on, the Diggers argued, the "common people of England" had been robbed of their birthrights and exploited by a foreign ruling-class.[citation needed]"

    Was the queen conned by cameron and johnston? Our politicians are so disappointing

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    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: English independence

    Constitutionally the Queen could be replaced by a tub of lard. She is not allowed to be influenced. She must accept all "advice" for which the correct word is instructions. Except, of course, during a national emergency at which point she is the sole font of power, her word devolved through her commanders is absolute law and she had better do it right, that's all I can say. We haven't ever had a national emergency so far.

    The trouble with England is that electorally it's full of tossers I'd not let past my door if they called for tea. That's the electorate, not the MPs, just to be clear.

    If, on the other hand, it became a legal obligation for everyone over the age of twelve to vote in every election, we might get a representative government which would do a better job. I'd vote for that.
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    Senior Member magentaflame's Avatar
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    Re: English independence

    don't bank on it ...voting is compulsary here and look what we've ended up with . people resent being told by law to vote for people they wouldn't spit on.

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    Re: English independence

    We really need proportional representation for westminster elections but neither tory or labour support it as the first past the post system works in their favour, The next tgeneral election if the remain support is spread out the tory and brexit leavsre will win the majority of seats despite overwhelmimng numbers voting against them.

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/17...snp-newsnight/

    "Despite the discussion being billed as on “the changing landscape of UK politics”, the SNP were excluded, and an apology was later offered to the party. "

    They're the third largest party in westminster they have more actual party members than the tories but you would think the snp don't exist if you watch the bbc. There are mass demonstration up and down the country calling for another independence referendum. Jo swinson sits in a scottish seat There's a very good chance she may lose it, what then for the libdems? The 2015 election when the snp took all but one of the westminster seats was an aberration but I could see iy happening again.

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    Re: English independence

    Quote Originally Posted by gmc View Post
    We really need proportional representation for westminster elections
    No, we really don't. Proportional representation requires each party to put forward a national list of candidates in top-down order of who the party wants to be elected, and no amount of voting by the electorate can stop the candidates at the top of the list from being unelected. The entire point of a constituency election is to be able to unelect candidates the electorate doesn't want.

    I've no problem with transferable votes within a constituency, that's not an issue. What is horribly unacceptable is proportional representation and the consequent forced election of the party fat cats who are thereby guaranteed re-election regardless of the will of the people.

    The European Election this year was proportional representation at the regional level, that's why bloody Ann Widdecombe get elected as my representative because she was top of the West of England Brexit list. None of us would have voted for her as a person.
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    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
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    Re: English independence

    That's a fault of the version used not the idea itself. Scotland uses the Additional Member System, you vote for a constituemcy MP and a list mp.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addi..._member_system

    n an election using the additional member system, each voter casts two votes: a vote for a candidate standing in their constituency (with or without an affiliated party), and a vote for a party list standing in a wider region made up of multiple constituencies. The constituency vote is used to elect a single representative in the voter's constituency using the traditional first past the post system: the candidate with the most votes (not necessarily a majority of the electorate) wins. The regional vote is used to elect representatives from party lists to stand in regional seats, taking into account how many seats were gained by that party in the constituency vote, using a system of proportional representation: the number of seats a party receives will roughly reflect its percentage of the vote.

    It was intended to prevent any one party getting an overall majority and coalition governments be the norm, Lib dems and labour formed the first government now it is primarily the snp and the greens with libdems and labour reduced to a ruck. That the snp do so well speals volumes. It would be fair to say scots are a lot more interested in what goes on as a result of their vote actually making a difference.

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    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: English independence

    Quote Originally Posted by gmc View Post
    That's a fault of the version used not the idea itself. Scotland uses the Additional Member System, you vote for a constituemcy MP and a list mp.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addi..._member_system

    n an election using the additional member system, each voter casts two votes: a vote for a candidate standing in their constituency (with or without an affiliated party), and a vote for a party list standing in a wider region made up of multiple constituencies. The constituency vote is used to elect a single representative in the voter's constituency using the traditional first past the post system: the candidate with the most votes (not necessarily a majority of the electorate) wins. The regional vote is used to elect representatives from party lists to stand in regional seats, taking into account how many seats were gained by that party in the constituency vote, using a system of proportional representation: the number of seats a party receives will roughly reflect its percentage of the vote.

    It was intended to prevent any one party getting an overall majority and coalition governments be the norm, Lib dems and labour formed the first government now it is primarily the snp and the greens with libdems and labour reduced to a ruck. That the snp do so well speals volumes. It would be fair to say scots are a lot more interested in what goes on as a result of their vote actually making a difference.

    You seem not to see that the system you have described does not allow the electorate to dismiss the party fat cats who put themselves at the top of the party list. That is my sole and complete objection to the process and wherever there is a regional or national party list, that is a guaranteed consequence. It's built into the concept of proportional representation and it is corrupt.
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    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
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    Re: English independence

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    You seem not to see that the system you have described does not allow the electorate to dismiss the party fat cats who put themselves at the top of the party list. That is my sole and complete objection to the process and wherever there is a regional or national party list, that is a guaranteed consequence. It's built into the concept of proportional representation and it is corrupt.
    Didn't say it was perfect but you do have to represent as wide a spread as possible.What is your solution? I await with interest you suggestion as to how you stop any political party having leaders at the top who take any regional seats if they cannot win a constituency seat. Ruth davidson incidentally won her constiuency seat outright much to her surprise. Not all party leaders are necessarily fat cats and one of the biggest problem the snp have for the futuire is labour apparatchiks moving across to try and stay in power. If you look at the labour party their left wing are equally as self seeking and undemocratic as the tories.

  9. #9
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    Re: English independence

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmc View Post
    I await with interest you suggestion as to how you stop any political party having leaders at the top who take any regional seats if they cannot win a constituency seat.
    As I said, it cannot be done, it is an impossible thing to do, once you have party lists in any form of election you will have some preferred party candidates guaranteed to win regardless of the electorate not wanting them. Whether it is regional or national makes no difference.

    Obviously an extreme case of a party getting no votes is also going to get nobody elected from the top of a party list either, but you can all too easily have a party getting, say, 4% of the national vote, winning no constituency seats but having a half dozen MPs from their party list elected. It's a process which will let in the extremists which we have so far kept out of parliament. Keeping them out is good thing.

    That's why I refuse to approve any voting system which includes party lists.

    Single transferable votes within a constituency is fine, it reverses the winner from most-favoured to least-disliked. I prefer that.

    Shifting surplus votes after finding the most-favoured candidate in a constituency, and using those surplus votes a second time to pick extra candidates off a party list, is a nasty abomination which any party leader would just love to have control of.
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

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