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Thread: The Welfare State

  1. #21
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    Re: The Welfare State

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinky
    I don't think George (may he rest in peace) would be on the cranberry juice somehow mate!
    I thought it was a half pint of wine (or should that be a half litre) but didn't like to ask.

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    Senior Member Galbally's Avatar
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    Re: The Welfare State

    No, I've decided that I would like to live to see the future, you know, like 2009. So I have cut back on the barrels of vodka.

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    Meow! Saffron's Avatar
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    Question Re: The Welfare State

    Quote Originally Posted by Galbally
    The best way to judge a society is in how it treats its weakest and poorest members, end of story.

    Next question.
    I like that, what you said. Very intelligent and right to the point.

    Is England a welfare state?

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    Re: The Welfare State

    Quote Originally Posted by Saffron
    I like that, what you said. Very intelligent and right to the point.

    Is England a welfare state?
    Depends what you mean by a welfare state. The two words carry different connotations depending on which side of the atlantic you are on.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Accountable's Avatar
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    Re: The Welfare State

    Quote Originally Posted by Galbally
    The best way to judge a society is in how it treats its weakest and poorest members, end of story.

    Next question.
    Right. So do we keep them poor and weak if they are capable of developing the skills to be self-reliant, or do we allow them to experience the consequences of their decisions, just as the rest of us experience ours?

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    Re: The Welfare State

    Quote Originally Posted by Accountable
    Right. So do we keep them poor and weak if they are capable of developing the skills to be self-reliant, or do we allow them to experience the consequences of their decisions, just as the rest of us experience ours?

    Very good question.

    I think one big differences beteen the UK & US is that we see one of govt's roles being to help people out of poverty. Provide access to a good education as a right for all rather than a privilege for a few. It's hardly an egalitarian society if some children are deprived of education because they are poor-if you educate them they are morelikely to be abl;e to lift themselves out of poverty. Access to medical services as well, as a right rather than a privilege for a few.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Galbally's Avatar
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    Re: The Welfare State

    Quote Originally Posted by Saffron
    I like that, what you said. Very intelligent and right to the point.

    Is England a welfare state?
    Yes, unfortunatly I didn't say it, a fellow who witnessed the French revolution did. But its pretty good as a generalization I think. Also, I don't live in England, but in the Republic of Ireland, but in general I would say England is not a welfare state, its a capitalist country with a free-market economy, but it does have a welfare state within a state, in principal thats a good thing, though there are lots of specific problems with it.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Galbally's Avatar
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    Re: The Welfare State

    Quote Originally Posted by Accountable
    Right. So do we keep them poor and weak if they are capable of developing the skills to be self-reliant, or do we allow them to experience the consequences of their decisions, just as the rest of us experience ours?
    Accountable, we are all utimatley responsible for our actions, whether the law or government says so or not. I come from a quite poor background, but I have managed to educate myself and have been both capable and lucky enough to have had a pretty good life so far, anything that wen't wrong was ultimatley my responsibility to deal with, whether it was bad luck or bad circumstances, or bad decisions on my behalf. I understand your view entirely, and I don't intend to either castigate or romanticize the poor and the weak. But just as much as people cannot succeed without taking responsibility for themselves, we also cannot live as individuals divorced from any reponsibility toward the societies that we are part of and sustain us whether rich or poor, to do so is selfish, arrogant, and ultimately self-defeating.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Accountable's Avatar
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    Re: The Welfare State

    Quote Originally Posted by Galbally
    Accountable, we are all utimatley responsible for our actions, whether the law or government says so or not. I come from a quite poor background, but I have managed to educate myself and have been both capable and lucky enough to have had a pretty good life so far, anything that wen't wrong was ultimatley my responsibility to deal with, whether it was bad luck or bad circumstances, or bad decisions on my behalf. I understand your view entirely, and I don't intend to either castigate or romanticize the poor and the weak. But just as much as people cannot succeed without taking responsibility for themselves, we also cannot live as individuals divorced from any reponsibility toward the societies that we are part of and sustain us whether rich or poor, to do so is selfish, arrogant, and ultimately self-defeating.
    We've apparently followed similar paths. I truly believe in helping people. How I define help, however, seems to be radically different from the commonly accepted form. I don't believe never-ending unconditional handouts are helpful to anyone. The vast majority in the US that meet the criteria to qualify as 'poor' are miles from poverty. Yet there they sit in unemployed splendor, sucking off the gov't teat.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Galbally's Avatar
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    Re: The Welfare State

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    Quote Originally Posted by Accountable
    We've apparently followed similar paths. I truly believe in helping people. How I define help, however, seems to be radically different from the commonly accepted form. I don't believe never-ending unconditional handouts are helpful to anyone. The vast majority in the US that meet the criteria to qualify as 'poor' are miles from poverty. Yet there they sit in unemployed splendor, sucking off the gov't teat.
    I suppose what exactly is the most effective and equitable way of dealing with poverty and giving people the means and attitude to overcome it is the real deabte, and thats what all the arguing is about. I guess its a whole range of things, but certainly I generally agree with you that a welfare state that simply creates perpetual depenency on government handouts is not good either for the well off or the poor. Its a discussion thats going to run and run for a long time I suspect. As the old saying goes, "the poor, always with us".

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