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Thread: Pope steps in dodo

  1. #101
    Senior Member weber's Avatar
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    Re: Pope steps in dodo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted
    katy

    I cannot agree that the screptures are outdated. We ought to be paying attention to the wisdom of the past 3000 or so years. The relavence of the wisdom has not become outdated. What has become outdated is the literal interpretation of the scriptures.

    Shalom
    Ted
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  2. #102
    Senior Member Katy1's Avatar
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    Re: Pope steps in dodo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted
    katy

    I cannot agree that the screptures are outdated. We ought to be paying attention to the wisdom of the past 3000 or so years. The relavence of the wisdom has not become outdated. What has become outdated is the literal interpretation of the scriptures.

    Shalom
    Ted
    Ted,

    I agree that we should learn from history and that the Bible/Qu'ran etc. have great allegories (so does many of Shakespeare's and Aristophanes plays to name a couple) in them but IMO that's what they should stay. There is also a lot of irrelevance in these books in similar measure though, based on ideas that we as a more civilised world have to reasonably cast aside; but these are often the words and detail that are quoted as ammunition to intolerance and hatred.

    I'm having one of those 'bad wording' days so apologies if I haven't made myself clear!!

    Katy

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    Senior Member zinkyusa's Avatar
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    Re: Pope steps in dodo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted
    katy

    I cannot agree that the screptures are outdated. We ought to be paying attention to the wisdom of the past 3000 or so years. The relavence of the wisdom has not become outdated. What has become outdated is the literal interpretation of the scriptures.

    Shalom
    Ted
    The problem is sorting out the wisdom from the biogtry, sexism, fantasy, condemnation and myth..This requires interpratation to be loving and useful, they are unclear and often contradictory. I'll find something else..
    You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.

  4. #104
    Senior Member Katy1's Avatar
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    Re: Pope steps in dodo

    Quote Originally Posted by zinkyusa
    The problem is sorting out the wisdom from the biogtry, sexism, fantasy, condemnation and myth..This requires interpratation to be loving and useful, they are unclear and often contradictory. I'll find something else..
    Indeed Zinky, you said what I was trying to without being so long winded!



    Katy

  5. #105
    Senior Member zinkyusa's Avatar
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    Re: Pope steps in dodo

    Quote Originally Posted by Katy1
    Indeed Zinky, you said what I was trying to without being so long winded!



    Katy

    I'm just lazier than you Katy
    You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.

  6. #106
    Senior Member Lulu2's Avatar
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    Re: Pope steps in dodo

    ZINKY "The problem is sorting out the wisdom from the biogtry, sexism, fantasy, condemnation and myth..This requires interpratation to be loving and useful, they are unclear and often contradictory. I'll find something else.."

    +++++++++++ I'll create a code of decency for myself, thanks. Just because myths contain a few gems of wisdom doesn't mean we need to buy into all the other (see above.)
    My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay

  7. #107
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    Re: Pope steps in dodo

    What I see is folks who are condemning or at least ignoring the wisdom of the ages because they do not understand the sacred writings and how they were written. Basically there is little problem in sorting out most of the wheat from the chaff.

    It is interesting that scholarship does not take the same point of view.

    Of course there are a few issues that create debate but that is as it should be.

    The Bible is not a history book. It is primarily a religious book and was never meant to be taken literally. There are some kernels of history spread throughout the Bible.

    Any way I have no problem with those who think it useless or at best somewhat useful. We must each walk our own path.

    Shalom
    Ted

  8. #108
    Senior Member Felinessa's Avatar
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    Re: Pope steps in dodo

    There is nothing wrong with followers of a religion believing that their faith is the only true one. Otherwise, there seems to be no point in choosing a particular religion - anything else would do. From this regard, I can find no fault with Christians rejecting the teachings of Islam or viceversa. I can also find no reason why a Christian should refer to the Prophet in terms preferred by the Muslims or, conversely, why a Muslim should refer to Christ as "Our Lord and Our God" or "Our King and Our God" or "Our Saviour."

    However, from what I see in the media, it is always Muslim fundamentalists demanding the rest of the world to follow their rules regarding the way the Prophet should be referred to, represented, or discusssed. There is no rational reason for this, not even one covered by the modicum of respect we owe other religions. If someone is not a follower, s/he is not bound by those particular rules and to demand adherence from non-adherents is basically a breach of freedom of speech.

    On the other hand, we do owe each other the aforementioned modicum of respect. The Pope did not make injurious remarks about Islam or Mohammed, but included a citation which supported his point that violence and religion should not be combined. He did not use invectives to refer to Mohammed or to any Muslim cleric. However, in the wake of the mass hysteria created by the misrepresentation of his words, Muslim fundamentalists have called the Pope "the dog in Rome" and "stupid pig" . I am not Roman-Catholic, and therefore feel no obligation to refer to the Pope as "The Holy Father," nor do I think any non-Catholic should feel compelled to use the honorific. At the same time, I do think that the neutral "The Pope" or "Benedict XVI" are in order. It strikes me as a gigantic sign of hypocrisy that particularly those who demand others to use honorifics when referring to Muslim key-figures are also the first to use incredibly low epithets when referring to Christian key-figures.

    The hypocrisy does not stop here. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has sponsored the Tehran exhibit ridiculing the Holocaust and has called for Israel to be "wiped off the map . Christians are openly persecuted in Iran (although perhaps not as much yet as the Ba'hai) and in Afghanistan - the case of Abdul Rahman, who received a death sentence for converting to Christianity - has been in the news for a while. After the Pope's speech, churches were burned and a nun shot in Somalia. How does this show, again, that modicum of respect? As far as I know, there have been no uprisings, no mosques burned, no Muslims executed, and no demands for apologies, "or else ..." coming from Jewish or Christian authorities. This may be, perhaps, that the West, with all its sins, understands the concept of free speech. Germany, in particular, has made statements condemning the Holocaust exhibit, but addressed the issue in a civilized manner: not by burning mosques, but by publishing counter-statements.

    The last bit of hypocrisy, as pointed out by others, lies in the tremendous irony of answering accusations of violence with, of course, violence. Do extremist Muslims fail to see that their acts and words are violent? Do they not make the connection? I would have had more respect for them if they acknowledged that violence is part of their understanding of Islam. At least no one can contest a conviction, no matter how much we may disagree with it.

    Lastly, I have two more things to say.

    One is that moderate Muslims have been slow in condemning those who affect the image of their religion and have not gone to any lengths to distance themselves from these acts of inhumanity. I know parallels have been drawn between extremist Muslims and extremist Christians, but it is difficult to see the similarities, other than the fundamentalist interpretation of the texts: as annoying as the Jehovah's Witnesses may be, they do not shoot or decapitate anyone. Nor do they burn others' places of worship or hold violent rallies. The only similarities I can think of are the attacks against Planned Parenthood clinics and the executions of doctors who perform abortions. However, our media has been quick in denouncing these acts as unacceptable and the vast majority of Christians distance themselves from such atrocities. I have not seen moderate Muslims being quite as vocal.

    The second is that the West, in its soft, freedom-of-speech upholding way, has not provided an appropriate response to the mass hysteria following the Pope's speech. I am not arguing that we should start burning mosques in response, but I believe that a statement should be made pointing out that we take an equal offense to the violent reaction and that we expect an apology for the desecrations and the murders. Statements should be answered with statements, and no one would have objected to a peaceful protest. However, by not condemning the violence, we send the message that it is acceptable for extremist Muslim groups to place limitations on freedom of speech and to perpetrate acts of violence against innocents.

    That said, I do think the Pope made a tactical error by not remembering that he is not only a scholar, but also a key political figure. However, by insisting that he should censor himself lest Muslim fundamentalists unleash violence in response, we allow the extremists to impose their limitations on our culture, which is defined by civil liberties. And that is NOT acceptable. Before Muslims protest a statement taken out of context, they should perhaps take a hard look at the way religious minorities in their own countries are oppressed and persecuted.
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    Re: Pope steps in dodo

    I have a few problems with the first paragraph but that is an whole other issue. The rest of the post is excellent. Some very good questions and thoughts.

    It is interesting when people claim not to be violent but respond, to some presumed slight, with violence. I too fail to understand.

    At least our govt. does prevent extremists from comming into our country to spread their hatred in speeches as was done awhile ago to some bloke who wanted to speak in Montreal, I believe.

    At the same time I do wish immigrants to our oountry would leave their political baggage at home: killing East Indians because of their political stand or blowing up aircraft or raising funds for the Tamils.

    Shalom
    Ted

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    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: Pope steps in dodo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Felinessa
    If someone is not a follower, s/he is not bound by those particular rules and to demand adherence from non-adherents is basically a breach of freedom of speech.
    On the contrary, s/he is. Perhaps you've never heard of blasphemy as a criminal charge? It's been against the law in England for at leat the last four hundred years:
    All blasphemies against God, including denying His being or providence, all contumelious reproaches of Jesus Christ, all profane scoffing at the Holy Scriptures, and exposing any part thereof to contempt or ridicule, were punishable by the temporal courts with fine, imprisonment, and corporal punishment. In 1656, the Quaker James Naylor suffered flogging, branding and the piercing of his tongue by a red-hot poker.
    A blasphemy prosecution case is currently being threatened against the BBC for broadcasting "Jerry Springer: The Opera".

    Now, if we do that in England, why is a nation whose constitution establishes the state religion to be Islam obliged to permit outrages against the name of their Prophet?
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