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Thread: Ontario Referendum On Voting System

  1. #21
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    Re: Ontario Referendum On Voting System

    Quote Originally Posted by freetobeme View Post
    Well, I'm not British, but I kinda liked Maggie and Blair....

    However, IMO, this type of electoral system is ripe for opening the doors to extremists and religious zealots. Most people respect separation of church and state but there are many who do not, and would work towards changing this. This type of system lends itself to abuse, and could give unmerited political power to smaller, vocal organized minority self interest groups, those who are out to proselytize the world. I would rather have Australia's system and a mandated vote.
    I would rather have Australia's system and a mandated vote.
    So you do favour proportional representation. Australia uses it for the senate.

    http://www.aec.gov.au/Voting/How_to_...ing_Senate.htm

    Senators are elected by a preferential voting system, known as proportional representation.
    However, IMO, this type of electoral system is ripe for opening the doors to extremists and religious zealots
    .

    That's the favourite objection put forward that doesn't hold water to anyone that thinks about it for more than a minute or two. Winner takes all effectively disenfranchises the majority of voters merely letting the largest minority get power. So you might have enclaves where a religious party can get the seat because of the make up of the population makes them the largest minority but throughout the country it's rather unlikely. Indeed PR would actually help stop an extremist getting power. If anything it makes it worthwhile voting as at least the vote won't be wasted because you don't support the biggest majority.

    Don't know much about Canadian politics or American come to that but Maggie and Tony have been two of the most hated prime ministers in recent times (IMO) with a minority of support in the country and our electoral system is such we couldn't get rid of them without a massive swing in support against them. Both of them gerrymandered electoral boundaries to keep power. TB latterly had less than 30% of the vote. You really have to be diehard tony supporter to convince yourself that he actually has a mandate to run the country. Except diehard labour supporters are leaving in droves. Labour membership is half what it was in 1997. It has been suggested that Tony coming up to scotland to help campaign at the Scottish election was the last straw that swung the vote to the SNP.

    Winner takes all effectively disenfranchises the majority of voters merely letting the largest minority get power.

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    Re: Ontario Referendum On Voting System

    I am in favour of electoral reform, but not this particular one.
    Boundaries have been gerrymandered here by the Liberals, and probably by the conservatives too at one time; all parties tend to look out for their side, it's a political bent. Mind you, the changing of boundaries is done as required by law and changed as the population changes which is necessary.

    We have an unelected, patronage appointed Senate, (it has to go or be an elected Senate) the proposed new system is not the same as Australia. Australia has a mandated vote, and uses preferential ballots in two different ways: instant-runoff voting and the single transferable vote system. IMHO a preferable system.

    There's nothing wrong with first past the post either if there is a mandated vote, Australia has it right. That along with an equal elected Senate (or prop. rep.)would be great IMO.

    Proportional representation means disproportional power, as all it will do is shift it to smaller parties that will suddenly hold the balance of control in the legislature. This explains why MMP is enthusiastically supported by smaller and more radical parties.

    I've allready voted no, and according to a SES poll it won't pass. I know that too many Ontario voters didn't (advance polling) or don't know there is even a referendum, never mind being an informed voter.

    http://www.torontosun.com/News/Ontar...51774-sun.html

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    Re: Ontario Referendum On Voting System

    Quote Originally Posted by freetobeme View Post
    Of course all citizens have a right to vote, even hippies LOL but being against MMP doesn't mean one thinks they shouldn't have that right, so please don't project what you want to see.
    you said "...but this proposal will empower and enable radical self interest groups when we should be working to ensure that personal religious beliefs do not interfere with the rights of others."

    as logical as that may seem, you are supporting cutting voices in order to cut a specific few from being heard. It's not in my projection it's in your not wanting to see the bigger consequences of your reasoning.

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    Re: Ontario Referendum On Voting System

    posted by freetobeme
    Proportional representation means disproportional power, as all it will do is shift it to smaller parties that will suddenly hold the balance of control in the legislature. This explains why MMP is enthusiastically supported by smaller and more radical parties.
    IMO that is one of the most ridiculous arguments put forward against proportional representation. Let's say for arguements sake you have a religious party that gets popular support. As it stands in the UK (I don't know enough about Canada to use any figures from there, although a religious party in the UK is highly unlikely as it would very rapidly become sectarian and split the christian vote) they need less than a third of the vote to get elected to power. With PR it couldn't happen because the other 2'3rds would be enough to stop them having their way.

    Extremists of any kind only get support when other paths of political protest are blocked. that's why it's Saudi Arabia that is the home of al queda, why the ayatollah ended up getting power in Iran because extremes seemed useful because people were left with no alternatives.

    Just remember it used to b extreme to be radical to advocate one man one vote even for those who did not own property. Giving the vote to women was even more so-used to be the suffragettes were viewed as dangerous terrorists -a threat to the very fabric of society. The green movement are also viewed as radical yet in countries with PR they are a seen as a viable political alternative that get considerable supporty in the likes of Germany.

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    Re: Ontario Referendum On Voting System

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    You'll not have heard of Norman Lamont, Malcolm Rifkind, David Mellor, Michael Portillo, William Waldegrave or Chris Patten but their downfalls heartened a generation.
    I note that Rifkind has crashed and burned a second time, on this occasion as a result of what can surely be described as sleaze. Offering political influence to what he believed was a Chinese company, on the spurious grounds that "nobody pays me a salary"? What on earth does he think his £67,000 a year MP's pay is. Expenses, presumably. Instead of feeling anger, I suggest he explores the more appropriate topic of shame.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-31603202
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    Re: Ontario Referendum On Voting System

    I watched the documentary on 4oD earlier on & although Rifkind seemed to come across as the typical sleazy toe rag we have come to expect of the Tories, it has to be said that Straw did make the statements that he points out in his defence that any services he were to provide would not be made until after he stepped down as an M.P. & that any info would not be anything more than would already be available to anyone in the Public Domain. Furthermore, his additional claims that all his previous dealings have all been declared & within the rules determined by the Code of Conduct can all be verified, so although perhaps distateful, he has done nothing illegal. Rifkind, on the other hand is a totally different kettle of fish. "Self Employed"? "Doesn't Receive A Salary"? Yeah, right!!

    Some months ago I signed a petition for the Right of Recall (where the electorate has the right to sack their MPs before the completion of their term), but even if that were in effect, what would be the use? By the time all the paperwork went through it would be Election time. However, I do believe some sort of enquiry be made as to Criminal Proceedings being made, although I'm not sure there could be a conviction as no law was actually broken, as the company in question never really existed so no money or services were actually provided, legitimately or otherwise. Only the clear intent was proven. The most that could be proved would probably be Conspiracy to Defraud - or might it count as Espionage?

  7. #27
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    Re: Ontario Referendum On Voting System

    If Jack Straw had put off discussing his future employment until after he had ended his mandate as an MP I'd have no problem with him.

    Offering meaningful access to in-service diplomats has little to do with providing information available to anyone in the Public Domain. The first is profiting from his public position, the second is acting as an informed researcher. The second is fine by me, the first is definitive shameful sleaze which no Labour ex-Minister should be touching with a bargepole.
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    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

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    Senior Member FourPart's Avatar
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    Re: Ontario Referendum On Voting System

    Distasteful? Yes. Immoral? Perhaps - that would depend on personal opinion. Illegal? Therein lies the question. The intent to accept the offer is beyond doubt, but intent is not, in itself, a crime when even the end result never really existed. The point that is of most concern is that what they were planning to do is not actually illegal, so long as it remains declared & within the official guidelines, which act in their favour. The real question that must be asked is how such scandalous actions can remain legitimate, especially when this whole programme was merely based an a practically identical scenario set up 5 years ago, and still nothing has been done. Personally I imagine that once again it will be a major rallying cry for all parties to campaign to, and then it will be conveniently forgotten & brushed under the carpet once the next Government get in. No doubt by that time the electorate will be too inflamed by all the other broken election campaign pledges closer to home to remember such things.

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    Re: Ontario Referendum On Voting System

    Quote Originally Posted by FourPart View Post
    Illegal? Therein lies the question.
    It may be a question you're raising, but I dislike it being tagged on to a response to my post. Nothing I have ever said implied illegality on the part of either Jack Straw or Sir Malcolm.
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    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

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    Re: Ontario Referendum On Voting System

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    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    It may be a question you're raising, but I dislike it being tagged on to a response to my post. Nothing I have ever said implied illegality on the part of either Jack Straw or Sir Malcolm.
    I didn't say you did. Nor did I say that you claimed it as being distatsteful or immoral. Or am I to understand you don't find it distasteful or immoral either?

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