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Thread: Ontario Referendum On Voting System

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  1. #1
    anomaly
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    Ontario Referendum On Voting System

    On Oct. 10th, 2007, Ontario residents in Canada will cast a vote on how they want to vote in the future. The two options are 1) to continue with the current system of voting for a local candidate and the winner gains a seat in the legislature or 2) voting for a local member and a party separately. if the party votes exceed elected members then "list members" will take the extra seats.

    I'm currently looking for the summary of what this all means. At the moment it appears that we would end up with more politicians on public payroll and some of the legislature members would be chosen by politicians not the public.

    The dedicated, impartial site is http://www.yourbigdecision.ca/

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    Senior Member Richard Bell's Avatar
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    Re: Ontario Referendum On Voting System

    I'm inclined at this point to reject it.

    I think Dalton McGinty is a lying sack of sh!t anyway, so I have an aversion to anything touted by his regime.

    Our system isn't perfect, but it works pretty well. Winston Churchill once said that democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.

    Anyway, I'm voting NDP, because they are the only party that voted against the huge pay increase the MPPs voted for themselves. Since I'm voting for an NDP MPP, and voting for the party on general principles, it doesn't interest me that I could vote for a party and an MPP.

    It looks to me that this idea could lead to an Italian style parliament, where chaos and ineffectuality reign supreme.

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    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: Ontario Referendum On Voting System

    It depends on whether you want the electorate to be able to dent the system when they're unhappy.

    First Past The Post amplifies voter opinion and generally avoids coalitions. This is a Good Thing, since one party running matters gives a coherent focused agenda which hasn't offended so many people as to be unacceptable.

    Party Lists utterly insulate the politicians from rejection and rejecting individual politicians is the best entertainment going. It satisfies the electorate and it purges powerful magnates from their posts. Long may it continue. You'll not have heard of Norman Lamont, Malcolm Rifkind, David Mellor, Michael Portillo, William Waldegrave or Chris Patten but their downfalls heartened a generation.
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    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: Ontario Referendum On Voting System

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    You'll not have heard of Norman Lamont, Malcolm Rifkind, David Mellor, Michael Portillo, William Waldegrave or Chris Patten but their downfalls heartened a generation.
    I note that Rifkind has crashed and burned a second time, on this occasion as a result of what can surely be described as sleaze. Offering political influence to what he believed was a Chinese company, on the spurious grounds that "nobody pays me a salary"? What on earth does he think his £67,000 a year MP's pay is. Expenses, presumably. Instead of feeling anger, I suggest he explores the more appropriate topic of shame.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-31603202
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    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
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    Senior Member FourPart's Avatar
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    Re: Ontario Referendum On Voting System

    I watched the documentary on 4oD earlier on & although Rifkind seemed to come across as the typical sleazy toe rag we have come to expect of the Tories, it has to be said that Straw did make the statements that he points out in his defence that any services he were to provide would not be made until after he stepped down as an M.P. & that any info would not be anything more than would already be available to anyone in the Public Domain. Furthermore, his additional claims that all his previous dealings have all been declared & within the rules determined by the Code of Conduct can all be verified, so although perhaps distateful, he has done nothing illegal. Rifkind, on the other hand is a totally different kettle of fish. "Self Employed"? "Doesn't Receive A Salary"? Yeah, right!!

    Some months ago I signed a petition for the Right of Recall (where the electorate has the right to sack their MPs before the completion of their term), but even if that were in effect, what would be the use? By the time all the paperwork went through it would be Election time. However, I do believe some sort of enquiry be made as to Criminal Proceedings being made, although I'm not sure there could be a conviction as no law was actually broken, as the company in question never really existed so no money or services were actually provided, legitimately or otherwise. Only the clear intent was proven. The most that could be proved would probably be Conspiracy to Defraud - or might it count as Espionage?

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    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: Ontario Referendum On Voting System

    If Jack Straw had put off discussing his future employment until after he had ended his mandate as an MP I'd have no problem with him.

    Offering meaningful access to in-service diplomats has little to do with providing information available to anyone in the Public Domain. The first is profiting from his public position, the second is acting as an informed researcher. The second is fine by me, the first is definitive shameful sleaze which no Labour ex-Minister should be touching with a bargepole.
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    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
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    Senior Member FourPart's Avatar
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    Re: Ontario Referendum On Voting System

    Distasteful? Yes. Immoral? Perhaps - that would depend on personal opinion. Illegal? Therein lies the question. The intent to accept the offer is beyond doubt, but intent is not, in itself, a crime when even the end result never really existed. The point that is of most concern is that what they were planning to do is not actually illegal, so long as it remains declared & within the official guidelines, which act in their favour. The real question that must be asked is how such scandalous actions can remain legitimate, especially when this whole programme was merely based an a practically identical scenario set up 5 years ago, and still nothing has been done. Personally I imagine that once again it will be a major rallying cry for all parties to campaign to, and then it will be conveniently forgotten & brushed under the carpet once the next Government get in. No doubt by that time the electorate will be too inflamed by all the other broken election campaign pledges closer to home to remember such things.

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    Re: Ontario Referendum On Voting System

    Quote Originally Posted by koan View Post
    On Oct. 10th, 2007, Ontario residents in Canada will cast a vote on how they want to vote in the future. The two options are 1) to continue with the current system of voting for a local candidate and the winner gains a seat in the legislature or 2) voting for a local member and a party separately. if the party votes exceed elected members then "list members" will take the extra seats.

    I'm currently looking for the summary of what this all means. At the moment it appears that we would end up with more politicians on public payroll and some of the legislature members would be chosen by politicians not the public.

    The dedicated, impartial site is http://www.yourbigdecision.ca/
    Sounds similar to the system introduced in Scotland. Don't know about canada but here the first things parties do when they get elected is gerrymander the electoral boundaries to make sure they get elected again. First past the post means you often end up with parties in control that have a low percentage of the overall vote but have managed to win the most seats by rearranging the wards, effectively disenfranchising most of the voters.

    First past the post means you end up with situation like in the Uk where over 2/3rds of the voters didn't vote labour but we have a labour govt. Same with Maggie Thatcher, At no time did the majority of voters support her yet we got stuck with her. next to Tony Blair she must be one of the most hated prime ministers we have ever had.

    In scotland for fifty years labour have ruled the roost now they no longer do so and are losing their grip on local councils as well, thanks to the list system. poor dears don't know what has hit them. Without it we would still have labour despite the massive opposition to them.

    Main parties tend not to like PR because it means they can't rule the roost any more and actually have to listen to people.

    posted by spot
    It depends on whether you want the electorate to be able to dent the system when they're unhappy.
    Oh yeah like TB got dented at the last election.

    posted by spot
    First Past The Post amplifies voter opinion and generally avoids coalitions. This is a Good Thing, since one party running matters gives a coherent focused agenda which hasn't offended so many people as to be unacceptable.
    This is a bad thing, when you amplify something it can also be distorted as happens in our system. The number of votes cast for a party in general elections under FPTP is not accurately reflected in the number of seats won. Under PR the number of seats more accurately reflects the number of votes cast for each party.

    posted by spot
    Party Lists utterly insulate the politicians from rejection and rejecting individual politicians is the best entertainment going. It satisfies the electorate and it purges powerful magnates from their posts. Long may it continue. You'll not have heard of Norman Lamont, Malcolm Rifkind, David Mellor, Michael Portillo, William Waldegrave or Chris Patten but their downfalls heartened a generation.
    They also scare the **** out of them as has happened up here. For the first time in ages it's no longer a waste of time voting.

    posted by Richard Bell
    It looks to me that this idea could lead to an Italian style parliament, where chaos and ineffectuality reign supreme.
    That's not the system that's due to the italians. Germany uses the same system, like italy PR was imposed after ww2 because PR prevents one party gaining total power without having support from at least a majority of the populace. (as has happened here with New Labour ) The argument that it gives small parties undue influence is a spurious one. No offence but you have to gave a very strange way of looking at things if you believe an electoral system that gives the majority of seats and therefore political power to a party that 2/3rds of the voters reject is a fair one.

    Both labour and the Tories are on record as saying they oppose PR. Scots Tories on the other hand think it's wonderful as without it, despite getting 18% of the vote they would have no seats at all.

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    anomaly
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    Re: Ontario Referendum On Voting System

    It's very difficult to decide what it will all mean in real results.

    One of the most unnerving aspects is that no one is really talking about it. My family keeps fairly well informed and none of us can talk intelligently about this particular subject... and the vote is in a month!

    That's some good info here though. At least a starting point to research from.

  10. #10
    anomaly
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    Re: Ontario Referendum On Voting System

    My father's opinion includes that most of the politicians are against it so there has to be something good about the new system idea

    One question I'm still unsure of... with PR, would the local dude still be the local representative if his party didn't win enough seats for him/her to go to legislature?

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