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Thread: Born Gay? - A Homosexual Gene?

  1. #81
    Jester2
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    Re: Born Gay? - A Homosexual Gene?

    Quote Originally Posted by guppy View Post
    not being a smart ass or the like but jester you are a man of faith are you not..? you cannot produce anything of physcal proof of your beliefs either. not all truths can be proved or disproved by science..can they? is it bad science or an attempt to understand..
    who said that the gay groups would or do have a defective gene..some of the smartest most creative people in our history..were gay..

    i am left handed by genetic disposition..this doesnt make me inferior to right handed..anymore than being a woman makes me inferior to men..different does not mean by definition..inferior..

    is sexual orientation of such great importance..i dont think so..what i look for and see is the spirit of the person i am around..i have gay men friends..they treat their life partners with more respect and honor than some heterosexual people i know..one of the things i have dicovered about say johnathon..a really good friend of mine..he has been judged so harshly by his family..by society..that he doesnt judge others..he is one of the most open..giving kindest hearted men i know..his relationship with his mate..josh..is a wonderous thing..something i dont see in very many heterosexual couples..beyond the physical difference..what i see in them is they have learned unconditional love..in the spirit..isnt that the most important of all?
    Not if they operate outside of Gods design for a relationship. I'm sure there are many, many nice folks who think the are gay. I'm sure they are capable of love though misguided as I see your discription of them. But that does not make what they do right in Gods eyes. He has a mandate, its to be followed, or its sin. I realize this is a totally rejected concept by most of you, but God has not changed His design since he created us.

  2. #82
    Senior Member yaaarrrgg's Avatar
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    Re: Born Gay? - A Homosexual Gene?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post
    In the 40's and 50's teachers used to retrain left'ys to be righty's with great sucess.
    My son (about 18 mo old) is clearly left handed at this point. My brother is left handed. I was probably left handed, but my sister "corrected" me.

    Around high school, it began to irritate me that I was using a different hand than I initially felt natural, so forced myself to learn to write both ways. Something about it just drove me nuts, although probably because I'm left-eyed.

    I don't think training people to switch what they find natural is itself natural ... the results are not really successes, as teachers have since learned it's a mistake to do it in the first place.

  3. #83
    Senior Member Bryn Mawr's Avatar
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    Re: Born Gay? - A Homosexual Gene?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post
    I did?
    Indeed - and very funny it was too :-

    http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/sh...&postcount=107

  4. #84
    Senior Member Bryn Mawr's Avatar
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    Re: Born Gay? - A Homosexual Gene?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post
    I'd call it a coincidence, rather than a significant finding.

    I am right handed, and left handed. I have a right hand dominance in manual activies and a left side dominance in sight and shooting. I trained in hand to hand combat and in weapons to be both left and right handed/sided. Its a learned behavior/activity. Its tendency, not a genetic predisposition.

    There is a rehab program that takes stroke victims and retrains them to be otherside dominate from thier affected side, which worked marvelously, then some resaercher decided to limit the active side and force neuromuscular activity through the affected side only, and what do you know, previously plataeud stroke victims began to make gains again. One of my family member benefited greatly from this therapy.

    I think we need to make a clear distinction between behavior and true genetic determination.

    In the 40's and 50's teachers used to retrain left'ys to be righty's with great sucess.


    Might I ask what you think a genetic predisposition is?

    It is a tendency for a person with a given gene or combination of genes to have a given physical or behavioural characteristic.

    It has no suggestion or inference that the person with such a gene or combination of genes is guaranteed to have that characteristic - that would be a genetic trait such as the recessive trait for blue eyes.

  5. #85
    Senior Member guppy's Avatar
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    Re: Born Gay? - A Homosexual Gene?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post
    I'd call it a coincidence, rather than a significant finding.

    I am right handed, and left handed. I have a right hand dominance in manual activies and a left side dominance in sight and shooting. I trained in hand to hand combat and in weapons to be both left and right handed/sided. Its a learned behavior/activity. Its tendency, not a genetic predisposition.

    There is a rehab program that takes stroke victims and retrains them to be otherside dominate from thier affected side, which worked marvelously, then some resaercher decided to limit the active side and force neuromuscular activity through the affected side only, and what do you know, previously plataeud stroke victims began to make gains again. One of my family member benefited greatly from this therapy.

    I think we need to make a clear distinction between behavior and true genetic determination.

    In the 40's and 50's teachers used to retrain left'ys to be righty's with great sucess.
    right handed people

    true left handers are right brain dominent..and born that way..to force them to use their right hand means they had to retrain their brains to send signals to the right hand from the left side..almost all left handers are left side dominent..their left eye..left foot and arm are also dominent..and controlled by the right side of their brain..and they are born that way...i disagree with you that leftys were retrained with great success..what happened was they were forced to use the lesser side of their brain in fine motor coordination..and as a result were exposed to greater risk of harm..in machinery..warfare..and most of the coordination needed in the working world..

    experiment with yourself..try writing with your less dominant hand..your dominant hand will probably try to mimic your actions..your brain is sending cross signals...

    so by your words are you implying in any kind of way that homosexuals can be retrained in your correct way of thinking? to be heterosexual..i disagree..

    although not firmly proven by science yet..homosexuality is a result of a combination of genetics..hormones and environment..i believe they are born that way..

  6. #86
    Jester2
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    Re: Born Gay? - A Homosexual Gene?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryn Mawr View Post
    Might I ask what you think a genetic predisposition is?

    It is a tendency for a person with a given gene or combination of genes to have a given physical or behavioural characteristic.

    It has no suggestion or inference that the person with such a gene or combination of genes is guaranteed to have that characteristic - that would be a genetic trait such as the recessive trait for blue eyes.
    ohhhhh crimony... next time this subject comes up you will find Jester suddenly mute, and unable to type...

    I used the term hardwired earlier, I'm not sure which its classified as, but let me give you my terms and you see where they fit.

    There is learned behavior, which the society and individual learns after birth, then there is the core design of an individual... looks, body structure, bone configuration, in short the physcial characteristics of an individual, then there are the variables, that come as a result of the joining of one from two parents, still they are mostly physical. I do see that there is some trend in there for natural mannerism, for example, mother and daughter stand very much the same, but they arent the two that look most alike in body structure amongs the daughters, I think these are a combination of both the variables and the core design, but they can also be learned behavior.

    In terms of sexual maturity it is more based on learned behavior than anything else. What kids see modeled before them is paramount in sexual maturity. As we move towards a more acceptance and normalzing of homosexual acitivites we will grow the population of persons who belive they are 'gay' because it is openly learned and acceptable, not because more of them are being born that way. Which is exactly what we are seeing happen.

    No one is born gay.

    Now, sorry folks but this thread is taking up too much of my time, Im not going to change my mind and no one will ever find a real 'gay' gene. Meanwhile the media and gay agenda will keep right on convincing the majority that being gay is something that your born with to make it acceptable, in 10 years time homosexuals will have create a new race, defemation of a homosexuality will be agaisnt the law (as it is in certain cases now) but it will be far more widespread, and even what Ive written here will be a violation of thier freedoms and folks will dare not say what Ive said. I will even be brought up an charges for this...

    So after I find Bryn's link, I'm out of this discussion. I can say no more than Ive already said.

  7. #87
    Senior Member guppy's Avatar
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    Re: Born Gay? - A Homosexual Gene?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post
    Not if they operate outside of Gods design for a relationship. I'm sure there are many, many nice folks who think the are gay. I'm sure they are capable of love though misguided as I see your discription of them. But that does not make what they do right in Gods eyes. He has a mandate, its to be followed, or its sin. I realize this is a totally rejected concept by most of you, but God has not changed His design since he created us.
    I respect your beliefs jester..they are yours...and rightfully so...

    just as i respect others that make adult consenting decisions.that hurt no one else..

  8. #88
    Jester2
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    Re: Born Gay? - A Homosexual Gene?

    Bryn, In response to your inquiry about a link to the psychology comment I made:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology...al_orientation

    “…According to the American Psychiatric Association,
    No one knows what causes heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality.... Currently there is a renewed interest in searching for biological etiologies for homosexuality. However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality…”

    Twin studies are inconclusive:
    “…Researchers have traditionally used twin studies to try to isolate genetic influences from environmental or other influences. Many early twin studies in this area selected from non-representative samples, and gave non-representative results.[4] Later twin studies have drawn from broader, more representative samples, and have thus given more representative results. A recent large-scale twin study, done by researchers at Yale University and Columbia University, concludes that "there is no evidence for strong genetic influence on same-sex preference in this sample."…”
    “…Overall, data appear to indicate that genetic factors may play some part in the development of sexual orientation, even if only a modest part. Further work is needed to more precisely quantify any genetic contribution to sexuality and to elucidate its mechanism…”

    Please note the bolded italics, appear, and may, those are not conclusive terms. Those are guesses.


    And a quote form one researcher himself: Mr. Levay "…It's important to stress what I didn't find. I did not prove that homosexuality is genetic, or find a genetic cause for being gay. I didn't show that gay men are born that way, the most common mistake people make in interpreting my work. Nor did I locate a gay center in the brain. ... Since I look at adult brains, we don't know if the differences I found were there at birth or if they appeared later…”

    Chromosome links? Non conclusive:

    “…The evidence for the Xq28 marker is therefore preliminary and has yet to be fully proved or disproved. Even at face value, the discovery of the Xq28 region would only show one genetic correlate of male homosexuality. Hamer's study was important though, as it was the first experiment to claim such a correlation. These findings do not suggest that the Xq28 region is necessary for homosexuality or singularly causes homosexuality, but rather that it might be one of many factors which influence sexual orientation in some males…”

    The politics involved:

    The issue of genetic or other physiological determinants as the basis of sexual orientation is a highly politicised issue. The Advocate, a U.S. gay and lesbian newsmagazine, reported in 1996 that 61% of its readers believed that "it would mostly help gay and lesbian rights if homosexuality were found to be biologically determined".[34] A cross-national study in the United States, the Philippines, and Sweden found that those who believed that "homosexuals are born that way" held significantly more positive attitudes toward homosexuality than those who believed that "homosexuals choose to be that way" and/or "learn to be that way".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosexism

    According to wikipedia there is a new name for folks that keep the traditional view of human sexuality, as being that only heterosexualism is the correct way to view human sexuality, RJ called me a homophobe, or homophobic. They true term now, coined by the magazine ‘the advocate’ is “heterosexualism”.
    Apparently I was correct, the gay agenda is to completely stamp out my right to discern what is sin and is not sin, or what God allows and what he does not allow…
    Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) Pronunciation[het-er-uh-sek-siz-uh m] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
    –noun
    a prejudiced attitude or discriminatory practices against homosexuals by heterosexuals.
    ________________________________________
    [Origin: HETERO(SEXUAL) + SEXISM ]

    —Related forms
    het•er•o•sex•ist, noun, adjective
    Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
    Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

    Please note the date this term was entered into the unabridged dictionary (2006).

    Soon it will be entered into the legal database, as it’s coined in legitimacy in a court room somewhere with the intent to discredit someones true belief in what has NOT BEEN PROOVEN yet at all.


    June 08, 2004
    Homosexuality is not biologically determined - latest research.
    By David van Gend
    The Titanic of Gay Rights, leaving all in its wake, is about to founder on a large and immovable fact....
    The iceberg of clinical fact looming up in the dark is this: that homosexuals who want to become heterosexual can and do change, as authoritative medical research has now demonstrated. Given the will, and skilled therapy, there can be an end to the nightmare of same-sex attraction. That is the best news for our heartsick friends down below deck, but it is bad news for the complacent triumphalists of the Gay Titanic....
    As to the exact causes of homosexuality, the medical jury is still out. But the baseless claim, promoted by [Australian] Justice Michael Kirby and others, that gays are just born that way, is given no support by the American Psychiatric Association. Their Fact Sheet on Sexual Orientation (2000) sums it up: "There are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality"....

    Links for this article: http://www.familyresearchinst.org/FRI_EduPamphlet5.html

    From the archives of general psychology:

    Human sexual orientation. The biologic theories reappraised
    W. Byne and B. Parsons
    Department of Psychiatry, Columbia University, College of Physicians and Surgeons, New York, NY.
    Recent studies postulate biologic factors as the primary basis for sexual orientation. However, there is no evidence at present to substantiate a biologic theory, just as there is no compelling evidence to support any singular psychosocial explanation. While all behavior must have an ultimate biologic substrate, the appeal of current biologic explanations for sexual orientation may derive more from dissatisfaction with the present status of psychosocial explanations than from a substantiating body of experimental data. Critical review shows the evidence favoring a biologic theory to be lacking. In an alternative model, temperamental and personality traits interact with the familial and social milieu as the individual's sexuality emerges. Because such traits may be heritable or developmentally influenced by hormones, the model predicts an apparent nonzero heritability for homosexuality without requiring that either genes or hormones directly influence sexual orientation per se.
    (I cant get the whole article because I’m not a member.)


    My final words on this subject on this forum (yes you have my word on it, but I reserve the right to dispute it in a religious biblical discussion):
    Scientifically speaking there is no conclusive evidence for a genetic link, or a gay gene, or in otherwise hardwiring that determines homosexuality. There is plenty of supposition, but supposition is not scientific evidence, its theory, it’s a guess. If there was a gene that determined homosexuality then one would be born that way, and it would be a determined factor and the fact is there have been numerous testimonials of people that have stopped being attracted to same genders. This goes along with leftys/rightys being trained in the opposing dominate side, my own personal experience is that I can indeed fight both left handed and right handed extremely well, so much so that I can counter opposing moves to either side and throw people off balance by determining their dominate side and using it against them, it’s a very fine motor control learned and trainable counteraction. I also bat left and right with equal accuracy, I draw with both my left and right hands, I shoot lefty/righty as well, it is learned, it is not something that one is born with in terms of gene, it may very well be a tendency, or a preference but largely its learned activity.
    Now politically I have to recognize that there is a large group of folks who have fought a large long battle to counter the common observation and innate knowledge that same sex sexual activity is wrong, deep down inside we know it goes counter to what is basically right. They are the ‘gay activists’ they are bound and determined to make it so I can’t say what I’ve been saying all along. And they now win, because they have convinced you folks on this forum on such a large scale that I am the only one willing to stand up and say anything remotely associated as against the gays.
    Not one of you will publicly say what you think, if you do agree with me. You’ve been cowed to not speak your beliefs. You’ve been convinced that there is a gay gene and homo’s are born that way, or you have caved to the pressure like me.
    Wow, I’m gonna let them win.
    But not before I have my say:
    1. Homosexuality is a sin.
    2. Homosexuality is a choice.
    3. Homosexuality is a detriment to normal health in the human body.
    4. Sociologically as homosexuality becomes more common place the HIV crisis will continues to grow, become pneumonic and have an airborne pathogenic component to its vector. When that happens all of us non homosexuals will have to be exposed to it. In the meantime HIV will grow in numbers in heterosexuals that engage in sexual intercourse/share vectors in any way with the homosexual lifestyle.
    So I’m about done now…
    Push the report post button if I pissed you off, as I will not reply to anyone who posts in reference to this post. Free chance to speak your mind to me since I will not respond.

  9. #89
    Senior Member Bryn Mawr's Avatar
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    Re: Born Gay? - A Homosexual Gene?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post
    Bryn, In response to your inquiry about a link to the psychology comment I made:

    <Snip>

    The first is an interesting article, the second a total irrelevance and the third is exactly why I asked for peer reviewed articles.

    Your attitude appears to be that unless proof is total and absolute then there is no possibility of it being true - hardly balanced and certainly no basis for the "facts" you have claimed during these discussions.

  10. #90
    Senior Member yaaarrrgg's Avatar
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    Re: Born Gay? - A Homosexual Gene?

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    Jester, you are free to state your opinion... I defend your freedom of speech.

    I just don't find your arguments very convincing. For example in this thread, you've made many claims, the truth of which is mutually exclusive:

    (1) sexuality is hard-wired (people are born "heterosexual")
    (2) sexuality is largely a learned behavior (not hard wired)

    (3) if there's no conclusive proof of something's existence, it doesn't exist
    (4) God exists, and he says that homosexuality is wrong (despite there being no conclusive proof of any of this)

    (5) there is no proof or disproof of there being a biological cause for homosexuality
    (6) there is no biological cause for homosexuality (without proof?)

    (7) if something is sinful, it can not have a biological basis.
    (8) people are born with a sinful selfish nature, because of the fall of man in Eden ... making it all genetic after all. (You stated this in another thread)

    (9) it's wrong for groups to have a social agenda on homosexuality
    (10) you are part of an group with a anti-gay social agenda, lacking proof for your claims.

    You can pick the odd numbers or even ... hard to combine both sets consistently though.

    I'm not sure you have any real reason for believing homosexuality can't have a biological basis, other than the fact that homosexuality makes you uncomfortable. That alone doesn't rule out there being a biological basis that underlies the thing that makes you uncomfortable.

    If you think I've mischaracterized your views, I apologize, but I'm just trying to explain why I am not convinced by your arguments presented.

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