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Thread: Russia invades Georgia

  1. #51
    Senior Member Galbally's Avatar
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    Re: Russia invades Georgia

    Quote Originally Posted by Accountable View Post
    Great. Now that that's done, joint the conversation like a normal person.


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    Gal & Jester,

    Other than semantics, what's the difference between EU "expansion", Russia's actions, China's reclaiming Tibet, and US "liberating" Iraq?
    Well, I will say in defence of my own continent, that accession to the EU is a voluntary process, countries are not asked to join, you apply to join, and if the other member states are agreed you go through a process of accession to the Union. To qualify as a member state, you firstly need to be a European country and recognized as such, you have to have a democratic government, a free press, an independent judiciary, you have to sign up to the declaration of fundamental human rights and the geneva convention, and you require a functioning and open economy, and you have to be prepared to sign up to the institutions of the EU as they stand at present (admittedly these institutions are the complicated bit). At the moment there is a waiting list of about 11 countries wishing to join, most are ex soviet republics, Turkey is another applicant.

    As far as I am aware, Russia is not claiming these 2 breakaway republics, though they have strong ethnic and cultural links with Russia, though they also have sizable Georgian populations. They will probably invite them into the CIS (which is essentially "Greater Russia") if they do seceed from Georgia, I am not sure what the qualifications for being in the CIS are, but they are certainly not the same as the ones for the EU, which is a completely different type of political block, in that the EU is a loose confederation of European soveiregn states, while the CIS is Russia and its clients.

    As for Tibet, well its part of China on and off for thousands of years, though its also been independent as well, of course its last spell of independence was ended in 1949 with a communist invasion from China, since then its been ruled directly from Bejing by Han Chinese like everywhere else in that vast country. I don't hear there being much talk of giving the Tibetans much of a say in their own countries independence, (whatever it is they want, and who knows because they are not even allowed to talk about it) which is a lot less than even the Russians have given to their dependent little client states.

    The US invasion of Iraq was a unilateral, invasion of a totaliarian, secular middle eastern nation (run by a murderous despot, like a lot of the others) about 8,000 miles from the US coast, in the aftermath of a terrible attack on the US (which once more for the audience had less to do with Iraq than Iceland). As far as I am aware, Iraq has never been considered a threat to the continental US in any serious way (other than the cost of holiday gas prices) previously, and its much hyped WMD program turned out to be an ice cream factory, while next door in Iran they were busy working on the real thing as we all now realize. Also, I don't recall Iraqi's expressing any desire that their country should become the 52nd state of the Union, or that any native American minorities were being persecuted by Iraqi government forces. So just what the parrallel is between these other territorial disputes, I am unsure.
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    Re: Russia invades Georgia

    Quote Originally Posted by Accountable View Post
    Great. Now that that's done, joint the conversation like a normal person.


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    Gal & Jester,

    Other than semantics, what's the difference between EU "expansion", Russia's actions, China's reclaiming Tibet, and US "liberating" Iraq?



    OverStand Something Your Not Ready For Me Because You Want To Dance Around The Truth / Facts . You Want To Go To Those Website That Point The Finger At Everyone But Themselves / Yourselves , Then Bring It Here For People To Agree With You , Those Who Don't You Insult Them . Case And Point You Speak Of Illegals Yes , Your Talking About People Who Were Kick Our By Force ---Out Of Their OWN Country , Then You Label Them Illegal immigrants Because They Want To Get Back In . Then You Have The Nerve To Talk About Puting People On A List Stateing Who Should / Shouldn't Be Here < Who Do You Think You Are >. Then You Address A Post About Rev Wright? / Barack Obama / John McCain, I Notice How You Eazy Your Little Raceism In It ,Your From The Old School And Set In Your Ways Meaning Your Lock In A Zone / It Would Be A Waste Of Time Discussing Anything With You . . I Could On And On . Let Me Stop Here Because I'm Geting Off The Above Subject .

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  3. #53
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    Re: Russia invades Georgia

    I don't see much difference. I see four players with exactly the same goal simply using different strategies to obtain the goal. That goal is no different from empires past.

    Specific to the EU, Gal, since you're there: what's the incentive? What do European states face by not joining the EU? Do the negatives of staying independent increase as more states join? If so, the pressures, though dressed better and presented more politely, aren't much different from Bush's 'Yer either with us or agin us' or Putin's You Belong to Me medley.

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    Re: Russia invades Georgia

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniyal View Post
    OverStand Something Your Not Ready For Me Because You Want To Dance Around The Truth / Facts . You Want To Go To Those Website That Point The Finger At Everyone But
    What's your opinion about the situation between Russia and Georgia?

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    Re: Russia invades Georgia

    Quote Originally Posted by Accountable View Post
    What's your opinion about the situation between Russia and Georgia?


    Read Post #52 Again Ok .
    I Don't Give Opinion
    1 a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b : APPROVAL , ESTEEM
    2 a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge b : a generally held view
    Last edited by Daniyal; 08-13-2008 at 01:55 PM. Reason: Added
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    Re: Russia invades Georgia

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniyal View Post
    Read Post #52 Again Ok .
    I Don't Give Opinion
    1 a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b : APPROVAL , ESTEEM
    2 a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge b : a generally held view
    Okay. Can we please continue with the topic of the thread, though? Russia and Georgia.

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    Re: Russia invades Georgia

    Quote Originally Posted by G-man View Post
    Okay. Can we please continue with the topic of the thread, though? Russia and Georgia.


    Sure why not !
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    Re: Russia invades Georgia

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniyal View Post
    Sure why not !
    Thank you.

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  9. #59
    Senior Member Galbally's Avatar
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    Re: Russia invades Georgia

    Quote Originally Posted by Accountable View Post
    I don't see much difference. I see four players with exactly the same goal simply using different strategies to obtain the goal. That goal is no different from empires past.

    Specific to the EU, Gal, since you're there: what's the incentive? What do European states face by not joining the EU? Do the negatives of staying independent increase as more states join? If so, the pressures, though dressed better and presented more politely, aren't much different from Bush's 'Yer either with us or agin us' or Putin's You Belong to Me medley.

    There are several reasons. Firstly, you have to realize that for all its differences Europe is actually a single political entity in many ways, and has been for centuries, in that no one European Nation State can do much on the continent without it impacting on everyone else. In the past of course this has led to many wars, culminating in the cataclysmic 20th century, in which European civilization was almost annihilated and the continent was divided between the US and Russia. The EU is the latest and so far most successful attempt to represent the civilizational unity of Europe in a stable, but diverse political framework. Whether it will succeed in the long run remains to be seen. However, to my mind, its the most effective way that the individual European nations can ensure their collective and individual security.

    Secondly, in the same way that America's economic power is based on its massive open and free continental economy with no internal borders, tariffs, and one currency and economic set of rules, likewise the developing EU model is based on a similar (if slightly different) concept.

    Thirdly, Europeans have a shared view of the world, which is somewhat different than those of say the Americans, or the Russians, or the Chinese. As separate nations, European countries are relatively small and weak compared to the giants like the US and China, but together as the EU, (which is a very large economic power though not a military one) they are able to ensure that their view of the world is at least respected and taken seriously by the other great powers.

    As far as pressure to join in the EU, certainly there are always pressures and issues for each individual country to make about there position, as the EU now includes most countries on the continent, so you can't ignore it, but equally there are several countries that have decided to remain outside of the EU, particularly Norway and Switzerland. While Britain famously is quite skeptical about the whole EU idea, (or at least some of the major parts of it) and may one day renegotiate its membership of the Union or leave the Union altogether, and of course if they choose to do so that they would be perfectly within their right to do so, no one would object outside of Britain in the British people determining their own future as this is their right as a sovereign people, and they would retain their long-term relations with the rest of the EU nations.
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    Re: Russia invades Georgia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galbally View Post
    There are several reasons. Firstly, you have to realize that for all its differences Europe is actually a single political entity in many ways, and has been for centuries, in that no one European Nation State can do much on the continent without it impacting on everyone else. In the past of course this has led to many wars, culminating in the cataclysmic 20th century, in which European civilization was almost annihilated and the continent was divided between the US and Russia. The EU is the latest and so far most successful attempt to represent the civilizational unity of Europe in a stable, but diverse political framework. Whether it will succeed in the long run remains to be seen. However, to my mind, its the most effective way that the individual European nations can ensure their collective and individual security.

    Secondly, in the same way that America's economic power is based on its massive open and free continental economy with no internal borders, tariffs, and one currency and economic set of rules, likewise the developing EU model is based on a similar (if slightly different) concept.

    Thirdly, Europeans have a shared view of the world, which is somewhat different than those of say the Americans, or the Russians, or the Chinese. As separate nations, European countries are relatively small and weak compared to the giants like the US and China, but together as the EU, (which is a very large economic power though not a military one) they are able to ensure that their view of the world is at least respected and taken seriously by the other great powers.

    As far as pressure to join in the EU, certainly there are always pressures and issues for each individual country to make about there position, as the EU now includes most countries on the continent, so you can't ignore it, but equally there are several countries that have decided to remain outside of the EU, particularly Norway and Switzerland. While Britain famously is quite skeptical about the whole EU idea, (or at least some of the major parts of it) and may one day renegotiate its membership of the Union or leave the Union altogether, and of course if they choose to do so that they would be perfectly within their right to do so, no one would object outside of Britain in the British people determining their own future as this is their right as a sovereign people, and they would retain their long-term relations with the rest of the EU nations.
    Right. As I said, same goal, different strategies. Each wants to ensure its survival; the best way to do that is to control resources. Those states outside the controlling entity are pressured militarily, politically, or economically, to join or die (or at least suffer).

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