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Thread: Russia invades Georgia

  1. #41
    Jester2
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    Re: Russia invades Georgia

    by galbally: Russia of course has won big time in the Caucuses here, its obvious that once the heat has gone out of the situation, Russia and the West need to sit down and discuss strategic and geopolitical issues that everyone has been ignoring for some time. The EU and Russia in particular need to agree spheres of influence along their shared frontiers, particularly in the Balkan- and Black Sea regions, while the US and Russia need to work out how the US plans for an anti-missile shield can still be developed that does not antagonize the Russians any further. What has happened over the weekend should be a sharp lesson to everyone of how quickly events can spiral out of control when issues are ignored.
    So let me get this straight...

    Georgia has a sovoriegn right to its geohistorical boundries, but when Russia comes to take what they want by force, the EU, and the rest of Europe are content to just let the Russians take what they want, kill civilians at will, attack and destroy civillian infrastructure, then back out like they did nothing wrong when there is no clear indication of being provoked by georgian forces and they did it during the opening of the olympics while all eyes were focused on good will games, while Putin was sitting next to Bush, then so long as there is a ceasefire and folks arent getting killed, everybody wipes thier brow and says, 'wow, that was close?'

    I hear no public outcry that Russia invaded another nation and targeted civilians... and all I heard for the past 5 years is how the US and 'bush' did the same thing in Iraq with crying and moaning?

    But its ok I guess... the Russians have ended thier agression...

    Lesson to be learned... if your going to use military force, do it quickly, target everything that moves, do it in a few days at most and leave the devistation to the inhabitants to recover. The typical european accepts that.


    What Im hearing you folks say is pretty much that you expected georgia to be attacked and they ought to know not to mess with Russia?

    Georgia belongs to the Georgians, and they don't want to be Russians. South Ossentia wanted to be Russian, because they were primised a better livelyhood if Russia keeps control of the pipeline there...

    Well its your backyard, you may live with folks the way you want to.

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    Re: Russia invades Georgia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post
    Not at all, it's a straight question, which everybody has asked you at one time or another here in the garden and you can't seem to answer.



    First I Wasn't Talking To You Ok , Anyway It Waste Of Time Talking To You , Because Your Allow Say Things And Get Away With Them . And Thats Because A Few Moderators! Have You Back .
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  3. #43
    Jester2
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    Re: Russia invades Georgia

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniyal View Post
    First I Wasn't Talking To You Ok , Anyway It Waste Of Time Talking To You , Because Your Allow Say Things And Get Away With Them . And Thats Because A Few Moderators! Have You Back .
    I havn't paid off a moderator in years...

    Any moderator is free to sanction me at any point and with my sense of authority I'd accept any sanction with a Yes-sir' or Yes-maa'm'...

    So far, either no mod has seen our exchanges or in dealing with you I have been civil enough to continue without sanction.But that small triangle with the red edge below the local date and time to the left of this post is a report a post function, just clcik it and report me if you feel the need.

    Now back to the question at hand... if your going to say something say it, dont use inuendo, this is a discussion forum, if you want to bring up a point bring it up. That's all Galbally was asking... it would have been very simple to say that what you meant is that 'the United States wont attack Russia becaus Russia can fight back.'

    See how simple that is?

  4. #44
    Senior Member Galbally's Avatar
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    Re: Russia invades Georgia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post
    So let me get this straight...

    Georgia has a sovoriegn right to its geohistorical boundries, but when Russia comes to take what they want by force, the EU, and the rest of Europe are content to just let the Russians take what they want, kill civilians at will, attack and destroy civillian infrastructure, then back out like they did nothing wrong when there is no clear indication of being provoked by georgian forces and they did it during the opening of the olympics while all eyes were focused on good will games, while Putin was sitting next to Bush, then so long as there is a ceasefire and folks arent getting killed, everybody wipes thier brow and says, 'wow, that was close?'

    I hear no public outcry that Russia invaded another nation and targeted civilians... and all I heard for the past 5 years is how the US and 'bush' did the same thing in Iraq with crying and moaning?

    But its ok I guess... the Russians have ended thier agression...

    Lesson to be learned... if your going to use military force, do it quickly, target everything that moves, do it in a few days at most and leave the devistation to the inhabitants to recover. The typical european accepts that.


    What Im hearing you folks say is pretty much that you expected georgia to be attacked and they ought to know not to mess with Russia?

    Georgia belongs to the Georgians, and they don't want to be Russians. South Ossentia wanted to be Russian, because they were primised a better livelyhood if Russia keeps control of the pipeline there...

    Well its your backyard, you may live with folks the way you want to.
    Jester, what exactly do you suggest that we do, threaten Russia with military retaliation? I don't think anyone is suggesting we congratulate the Russians for what has happened, or allow it to go unanswered, but it has happened and we have to deal with the consequences, and in a way that ensures we don't end up in a direct military confrontation with a nation that still has the capability to destroy all life on planet Earth, however old its tanks are.

    Also, this is not a straightforward political situation, and the Georgian President has badly miscalculated here, and the cost to Georgia may well be the loss of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, it may not be very pretty and what the Russians have done is highly questionable, but thats the reality of power. However, Georgia itself is a different matter, the Russians know this and if they attempt to invade the rest of Georgia or topple its government then there is going to be very serious trouble, not least because of the Baku oil pipeline.

    Make no mistake, the next moves everyone makes are going to be very, very important for the future. We shouldn't be overly afraid of the Russians, but by god we shouldn't underestimate them either Jester, we in Europe are all too aware of that (particularly if you happen to live east of the Oder). The Caucasian region of the world is very important to the Russians, (a bit like the Middle East is to you guys) and they are not just posturing about these issues, if they feel threatened enough, they will act.

    I want to see a pro-Western democratic Georgia, and also a pro-Western democratic Ukraine, in fact a pro-western democratic Russia would also be nice. But tensions between Europe and Russia have increased dramatically over the last 12 months over a range of issues, (you probably don't read a lot about this, but there have been a lot of tensions, particularly with Britain) and we seriously need to take some heat out of the situation. Part of the reality of the world, is knowing when its time to back off, as much as when its time to act. The Russians know they have won the military victory, they also know there will be a price to pay as well, right now the important thing is to bring some level of calm to the region, and help the people who have been effected by the fighting. Then we can deal with the consequences.
    "We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"

    Le Rochefoucauld.

    "A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."

    My dad 1986.

  5. #45
    Jester2
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    Re: Russia invades Georgia

    Quote Originally Posted by Galbally View Post
    Jester, what exactly do you suggest that we do, threaten Russia with military retaliation? I don't think anyone is suggesting we congratulate the Russians for what has happened, or allow it to go unanswered, but it has happened and we have to deal with the consequences, and in a way that ensures we don't end up in a direct military confrontation with a nation that still has the capability to destroy all life on planet Earth, however old its tanks are.

    Also, this is not a straightforward political situation, and the Georgian President has badly miscalculated here, and the cost to Georgia may well be the loss of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, it may not be very pretty and what the Russians have done is highly questionable, but thats the reality of power. However, Georgia itself is a different matter, the Russians know this and if they attempt to invade the rest of Georgia or topple its government then there is going to be very serious trouble, not least because of the Baku oil pipeline.

    Make no mistake, the next moves everyone makes are going to be very, very important for the future. We shouldn't be overly afraid of the Russians, but by god we shouldn't underestimate them either Jester, we in Europe are all too aware of that (particularly if you happen to live east of the Oder). The Caucasian region of the world is very important to the Russians, (a bit like the Middle East is to you guys) and they are not just posturing about these issues, if they feel threatened enough, they will act.

    I want to see a pro-Western democratic Georgia, and also a pro-Western democratic Ukraine, in fact a pro-western democratic Russia would also be nice. But tensions between Europe and Russia have increased dramatically over the last 12 months over a range of issues, (you probably don't read a lot about this, but there have been a lot of tensions, particularly with Britain) and we seriously need to take some heat out of the situation. Part of the reality of the world, is knowing when its time to back off, as much as when its time to act. The Russians know they have won the military victory, they also know there will be a price to pay as well, right now the important thing is to bring some level of calm to the region, and help the people who have been effected by the fighting. Then we can deal with the consequences.
    Well said, very evenly toned and exactly the diplomatic response that will leave Russia to do exactly what it did again when it decides to do it.

    Factors abound...

    Kosovo as you pointed out was a huge mistake, it now gives the russians the right to 'divide' and establish nations into pro supportive regions at thier whim. I was against recognizing Kosovo as a state. In fact my personal opinion is that the US never should have been in the region in the first place.

    I agree with you I'd love to see pro western nations spring up around russia, however thats exactly what has the russians so ticked off, they see, and rightly so, a region of pro western nations that have fallen under NATO or the western political influence. It scares the hell out of them becaseu nothings more contgeous than open freedom and Putin has set an air of 'extreme control' reminiscent of former soviet pressure rather than true diplomatic negotiation.

    We should have left the historical geographical borders alone and let each region decide how theyd like to govern themselves after the fall of the former soviet union.

    But here's the thing... Russia now holds all the cards and they know it, you or I or any diplomate in the world can tell russia what to do, or suggest it with any serious note by Putin. He can sit right next to bush and ignore him while he watches the next bout of olympic swimming. The only thing he can say is, excellent swimmers you have... mean while back home russia falsly accuses the Ukraine of being responsible for Georgia's airforce shooting down Su25's, implicating the Ukraine in the pro western expansion of Georgia. And when the US heads to talks about sanctioning Iran do you think Russia's gonna negotiate with the thought of giving up South Ossentia? I don't think so, they are gonna park thier tanks 40 miles from the Georgian capital and say 'I dare you'.

    Russia won. There is no negotiation, EU nor the US, nor any regional entity can say crap.

    Russia used force and said put up or shut up and the EU and the US has shut up.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Galbally's Avatar
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    Re: Russia invades Georgia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post
    Well said, very evenly toned and exactly the diplomatic response that will leave Russia to do exactly what it did again when it decides to do it.

    Factors abound...

    Kosovo as you pointed out was a huge mistake, it now gives the russians the right to 'divide' and establish nations into pro supportive regions at thier whim. I was against recognizing Kosovo as a state. In fact my personal opinion is that the US never should have been in the region in the first place.

    I agree with you I'd love to see pro western nations spring up around russia, however thats exactly what has the russians so ticked off, they see, and rightly so, a region of pro western nations that have fallen under NATO or the western political influence. It scares the hell out of them becaseu nothings more contgeous than open freedom and Putin has set an air of 'extreme control' reminiscent of former soviet pressure rather than true diplomatic negotiation.

    We should have left the historical geographical borders alone and let each region decide how theyd like to govern themselves after the fall of the former soviet union.

    But here's the thing... Russia now holds all the cards and they know it, you or I or any diplomate in the world can tell russia what to do, or suggest it with any serious note by Putin. He can sit right next to bush and ignore him while he watches the next bout of olympic swimming. The only thing he can say is, excellent swimmers you have... mean while back home russia falsly accuses the Ukraine of being responsible for Georgia's airforce shooting down Su25's, implicating the Ukraine in the pro western expansion of Georgia. And when the US heads to talks about sanctioning Iran do you think Russia's gonna negotiate with the thought of giving up South Ossentia? I don't think so, they are gonna park thier tanks 40 miles from the Georgian capital and say 'I dare you'.

    Russia won. There is no negotiation, EU nor the US, nor any regional entity can say crap.

    Russia used force and said put up or shut up and the EU and the US has shut up.
    I agree with you that some bad mistakes have been made, particularly Kosovo, I wouldn't start from here, but we are here now, and yes you are right, the Russians have put it up to the EU and the US, and there isn't a lot either can do about it right now. Its also likely that this isn't the end of the business in the Caucuses.

    Which is why behind the scenes you can be assured that Russia on one side and the US and the EU on the other are gong to be setting out where they see their spheres of influence, and where the new lines are going to be drawn beyond which the other will not be allowed to cross, because its getting too dangerous to leave this to chance, or the locals. That's unfair on the locals, but ever was it thus.

    It was always likely that the Eastward expansion of the EU, and particularly NATO was going to be a very delicate business, and so it is proving. I think there is going to be a period of taking stock, and then we shall see the ex-soviet republics falling into one camp or the other, with some possibly being partitioned, and the one I am thinking of here is Ukraine.

    I think the leaders of the EU need to think hard about what happens next, as many Americans have said, this is essentially a problem effecting the European continent, and its relations with Russia, and its up to us to sort it out. Europeans have had it easy for a long time, being able to sit on the sidelines in real world power politics, and criticize the Americans when they make mistakes, however, this time the Europeans will have to be a lot more involved in what are very difficult and dangerous problems.
    "We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"

    Le Rochefoucauld.

    "A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."

    My dad 1986.

  7. #47
    Jester2
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    Re: Russia invades Georgia

    Quote Originally Posted by Galbally View Post
    I agree with you that some bad mistakes have been made, particularly Kosovo, I wouldn't start from here, but we are here now, and yes you are right, the Russians have put it up to the EU and the US, and there isn't a lot either can do about it right now. Its also likely that this isn't the end of the business in the Caucuses.

    Which is why behind the scenes you can be assured that Russia on one side and the US and the EU on the other are gong to be setting out where they see their spheres of influence, and where the new lines are going to be drawn beyond which the other will not be allowed to cross, because its getting too dangerous to leave this to chance, or the locals. That's unfair on the locals, but ever was it thus.

    It was always likely that the Eastward expansion of the EU, and particularly NATO was going to be a very delicate business, and so it is proving. I think there is going to be a period of taking stock, and then we shall see the ex-soviet republics falling into one camp or the other, with some possibly being partitioned, and the one I am thinking of here is Ukraine.

    I think the leaders of the EU need to think hard about what happens next, as many Americans have said, this is essentially a problem effecting the European continent, and its relations with Russia, and its up to us to sort it out. Europeans have had it easy for a long time, being able to sit on the sidelines in real world power politics, and criticize the Americans when they make mistakes, however, this time the Europeans will have to be a lot more involved in what are very difficult and dangerous problems.
    I can agree to most of that.

    What I cant figure our yet is why exactly the Georgians played into the hands of the Russians so easily.

    An invasion the likes of whats was seen over the past few days takes some build up, its eaisly recognized by low level technology by multiple agencies feeding information to Georgia. Inlcuding the US, with local boots on the grond advisors you can bet basic intel gathering is being deployed and used. It will be interesting to see the number of deaths/wounded involved amongst Georgian soldiers, I have a feeling the incursions and counter attacks by Georgian troops was limited in scope. if we see a relative low number of casualties it will make me belive this was an allowable incursion on the part of the Georgians, in essence giving up Ossentia for a negotiated border settlement that Russia recognizes. I find it hard to believe this was a total 'surprise' attack/response by Russia. It had to have been recognized by Georgian troops prior to the action. You'd be blind not to see it in the region building up proir to.

  8. #48
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    Re: Russia invades Georgia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post
    I havn't paid off a moderator in years...

    Any moderator is free to sanction me at any point and with my sense of authority I'd accept any sanction with a Yes-sir' or Yes-maa'm'...

    So far, either no mod has seen our exchanges or in dealing with you I have been civil enough to continue without sanction.But that small triangle with the red edge below the local date and time to the left of this post is a report a post function, just clcik it and report me if you feel the need.

    Now back to the question at hand... if your going to say something say it, dont use inuendo, this is a discussion forum, if you want to bring up a point bring it up. That's all Galbally was asking... it would have been very simple to say that what you meant is that 'the United States wont attack Russia becaus Russia can fight back.'

    See how simple that is?



    Overstand one of the moderator did step to me because of what I Told you about writeing a post about the farm . But they never say anything about how you right my name , Personal I'm not worry about that but being you like to play games I was going to write a post , And Believe me you would have never forgotten what I Had written , Remember pen mighty then sword . I didn't say anything to any moderator until they step to me about what I Was saying because I'm not a Rat Nor do I have thin Skin . The Problem with people like yourself you Think you can tell people what to say how to say it . and insult them . So like I said moderator does have your back , If they didn't they would have told you about you mouth long ago . But hey . you got over this time .
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    Re: Russia invades Georgia

    Quote Originally Posted by Galbally View Post
    OK, I got you now.


    okkkkkkk
    Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.

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    To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .

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  10. #50
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    Re: Russia invades Georgia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniyal View Post
    Overstand *SNIP*. you got over this time .
    Great. Now that that's done, join the conversation like a normal person.


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    Gal & Jester,

    Other than semantics, what's the difference between EU "expansion", Russia's actions, China's reclaiming Tibet, and US "liberating" Iraq?

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