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Thread: Judge Asks Doctors To Damage Criminal's Spine

  1. #11
    Premium Member Snowfire's Avatar
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    Re: Judge Asks Doctors To Damage Criminal's Spine

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    The Saudi judicial system can at least point to their far lower crime rate to support the removal of extremities as a deterrent to potential offenders. The question really boils down to whether surgically inducing paraplegia furthers the same end.
    I suppose to the extent that a pickpocket without his hands would find repeat offences difficult to master, thats entirely right. Its difficult for us in the West to grasp the extent Sharia law is prepared to punish offenders. It does seem, with its particular interpretation of Islamic Law, Saudi women get the rough end of a very ****ty stick
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  2. #12
    Supporting Member Rapunzel's Avatar
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    Re: Judge Asks Doctors To Damage Criminal's Spine

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    The judge made enquiries in order to inform himself so as to respond to the application, he most certainly didn't ask any doctor to damage anyone's spine. Would you accept that as accurate, at this stage, or are you saying maybe he did maybe he didn't?

    We could, if you like, discuss whether or not it's a reasonable sentence compared to the English alternative of imprisonment or a fine. I know of no evidence that imprisonment has any positive effect in terms of deterrence, of reform or of punishment. The Saudi judicial system can at least point to their far lower crime rate to support the removal of extremities as a deterrent to potential offenders. The question really boils down to whether surgically inducing paraplegia furthers the same end.
    From the original article I give you this quote:

    The judge has since asked several hospitals if medical paralysis was possible and would they perform the operation.

    Local newspapers reported a facility in the capital Riyadh had declined, saying it could not inflict such harm.


    I agree with you that the first sentence implies that the judge has made enquiries in order to inform himself if such a course of action were indeed possible.

    However, the second sentence implies that the judge actually asked the question as the hospital "declined, saying it could not inflict such harm". If this were merely an enquiry from the judge then surely the facility would negate the possibility rather than decline what has surely been a suggestion.

    To be honest I think that this is all merely semantics as without further information we are guessing blindly according to our own feelings on the matter.

    So to answer your question, no, I don't accept that as accurate, to me it implies that the judge either asked the question or made a suggestion as to the possibility of it happening but I would take it as a stronger comment than just to keep himself informed.

    For your second paragraph, I agree that imprisonment appears to have no positive effect in terms of deterrence, partly because, imo, it is so hard for ex-cons to find decent jobs that they have to fall back into their old ways in order to survive. I'm not using that as an excuse or saying it applies in every case, I'm just saying it doesn't help.

    "The Saudi judicial system can at least point to their far lower crime rate to support the removal of extremities as a deterrent to potential offenders."

    True, but again, how can removing hands help that person work to support himself and his family? Also, a prison sentence may be 25 years (for example) but such a physical punishment would be a lifetime's punishment. In such a case the punishment would surely be greater than the crime. Furthermore, if such punishments truly worked, would you still have people making the same mistakes? Surely they should learn from the example set?

    "The question really boils down to whether surgically inducing paraplegia furthers the same end."

    This is such a hard question. If this were my child I would want to inflict the greatest amount of harm and pain possible on the perpetrator. However, you also have to consider that he has spent time in prison (although not enough time!) which means you would be punishing him twice.

    You also have to consider that he may find it hard to earn a living, so having paralysed him your government may have to pay out for his benefits for the remainder of his life. (I don't know the Saudi outlook on benefits. Do they even exist there?) Yet if they didn't subsidise him in some way he could starve to death on the streets, thereby making their punishment one of death and so again the punishment would outweigh the crime.

    Finally you have to consider that in their haste they may have arrested the wrong man. It may not be the case here but it does happen. What then if you paralyse an innocent party? It's a God-awful decision and not one I would ever wish to make. (Unless, as I say, it was my child, in which case I would hunt the bas***d down and kill him and to h*ll with the consequences).

  3. #13
    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: Judge Asks Doctors To Damage Criminal's Spine

    Your position appears to be identical with that of the family which asked the judge to pass that particular sentence.

    The sole function of imprisonment in current Western practice, it strikes me, is that during the period of imprisonment the guilty party isn't in a position to re-offend. The Saudi judicial system makes that inability permanent. I'm not sure why you'd wish that inability to be anything less. I'd also want it to be permanent here, though I'd achieve this objective through effective rehabilitation rather than surgery. How to develop an effective form of rehabilitation is a matter beyond the scope of the thread but I'm quite sure it's possible and equally sure it's not currently attempted in any Western jurisdiction.

    The Saudi approach of judicial amputation isn't intended to improve the life quality of the convict, it's intended to stop the next ninety nine potential criminals from stepping over the line for fear of the same. The benefit to society outweighs the harm to the criminal and as such it's arguably a moral stance.
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    Re: Judge Asks Doctors To Damage Criminal's Spine

    posted by spot
    The Saudi approach of judicial amputation isn't intended to improve the life quality of the convict, it's intended to stop the next ninety nine potential criminals from stepping over the line for fear of the same. The benefit to society outweighs the harm to the criminal and as such it's arguably a moral stance.
    It may be a moral stance but it's not much of one is it?

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    Supporting Member Rapunzel's Avatar
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    Re: Judge Asks Doctors To Damage Criminal's Spine

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    Your position appears to be identical with that of the family which asked the judge to pass that particular sentence.
    You seem to like to put people in boxes and once again you've put me in the wrong box.

    What I actually said was that I don't agree with this punishment. The term he served, imo, was not enough but surgical paraplegia, imo, is too much. Yes it would be an eye for an eye, but what purpose would it serve really?

    There needs to be a middle path, a suitable punishment to fit the crime. Rehabilitation is a good idea but has it's effectiveness ever been truly ascertained?

    What I also said is that if it were my child I would do my utmost to kill the basta*d. That's not a well thought out rational position, thats an angry parent seeing red and acting on instinct and I would claim diminished responsibility in court. However, so long as I could kill the person who harmed my child, I wouldn't care if I hanged for it. Rationality be damned.

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    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: Judge Asks Doctors To Damage Criminal's Spine

    Surely your last paragraph is identical with what I wrote?
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    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
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    Supporting Member Rapunzel's Avatar
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    Re: Judge Asks Doctors To Damage Criminal's Spine

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    Surely your last paragraph is identical with what I wrote?
    No, there's a difference. Maybe the line is too fine for you to see or maybe I haven't explained my POV clearly enough.

    It's really not worth nit-picking over though.

  8. #18
    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: Judge Asks Doctors To Damage Criminal's Spine

    Whether I can see it or not, if there's a difference you can surely express it. They're related and consequently vengeful and trying to make the chap suffer to the greatest extent within their power. For them, it's personal. What differs in your final paragraph?
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

  9. #19
    Supporting Member Rapunzel's Avatar
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    Re: Judge Asks Doctors To Damage Criminal's Spine

    What differs is that I can't be arsed to nit-pick over semantics and I really don't care about what happens to any of them, sad and lame though that probably is.

  10. #20
    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: Judge Asks Doctors To Damage Criminal's Spine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapunzel View Post
    What differs is that I can't be arsed to nit-pick over semantics and I really don't care about what happens to any of them, sad and lame though that probably is.
    Then you ought not post things like "You seem to like to put people in boxes and once again you've put me in the wrong box", because I don't and I didn't.
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

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