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Thread: Iran plots to kill Saudi Ambassador on U.S soil

  1. #21
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    Re: Iran plots to kill Saudi Ambassador on U.S soil

    Quote Originally Posted by oscar View Post
    I concede that the Involvement of the FBI can be seen as a Honey Trap but In the prevention of crime, I feel that the FBI have not committed any crime here or wrong doing.
    I would argue they have, and for why. I contend that a significant fraction of the population is fractious enough that, if their buttons are pressed in the right way, they'd up and go all patriotic and say be damned with the law, let's do it.

    The FBI can show up in some redneck drinking house and talk about the iniquities of government and say hell, those ATF teams have gone too far, let's burn their office; or hell, let's take out another Black church hall; or hell, those Mormons are all pedophiles, let's string up a couple - whatever the headlines of the day might be.

    But they don't, do they. The FBI is selective as regards who is targeted or the courts would be fuller than they already are. The State Department wants to bring Iran onto the front burner, it can simply trawl the FBI's database of potential victims, people who'd never do more than moan, and entrap them into a prosecution. And what does the State Department get out of it? All the headlines they wanted, all the two-minute-hate Orwell predicted. And nobody uses the word "propaganda" at all because it would be un-American.

    You say "but In the prevention of crime" - I take it you still maintain there could have been a crime without the FBI involvement, and consequently it needed preventing?

    Set that aside and consider my question, which you continually refuse to consider: assuming I've roughly described reality would you approve of what they're doing?
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    Re: Iran plots to kill Saudi Ambassador on U.S soil

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    I would argue they have, and for why. I contend that a significant fraction of the population is fractious enough that, if their buttons are pressed in the right way, they'd up and go all patriotic and say be damned with the law, let's do it.

    The FBI can show up in some redneck drinking house and talk about the iniquities of government and say hell, those ATF teams have gone too far, let's burn their office; or hell, let's take out another Black church hall; or hell, those Mormons are all pedophiles, let's string up a couple - whatever the headlines of the day might be.

    But they don't, do they. The FBI is selective as regards who is targeted or the courts would be fuller than they already are. The State Department wants to bring Iran onto the front burner, it can simply trawl the FBI's database of potential victims, people who'd never do more than moan, and entrap them into a prosecution. And what does the State Department get out of it? All the headlines they wanted, all the two-minute-hate Orwell predicted. And nobody uses the word "propaganda" at all because it would be un-American.

    You say "but In the prevention of crime" - I take it you still maintain there could have been a crime without the FBI involvement, and consequently it needed preventing?

    Set that aside and consider my question, which you continually refuse to consider: assuming I've roughly described reality would you approve of what they're doing?
    The definition defined as 'A sting operation' Is a deceptive operation designed to catch a person committing a crime A typical sting will have a law-enforcement officer or cooperative member of the public play a role as criminal partner or potential victim and go along with a suspect's actions to gather evidence of the suspect's wrongdoing.
    If there Is no criminal Intent there In the first place and no desire to blow people up, the dupes would not allow the sting to progress as far as It did.
    Law-enforcement may have to be careful not to provoke the commission of a crime by someone who would not normally be inclined to do so. Additionally, In the process of such operations, the police engage In the same crimes however, the onus Is on the dupes to prove entrapment In court and prove they had no Intent.
    Entrapment is typically only a defense If a suspect is pressured into committing a crime they would probably not have committed otherwise. EG If undercover officers coerced a potential suspect Into manufacturing illegal drugs to sell them, then the accused could use entrapment as a defense. However, If a suspect is already manufacturing drugs and police pose as buyers to catch him, then entrapment usually has not occurred.
    The prosecution has to prove there was no Intent and it was a case a entrapment.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...79C6Q920111013

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    Re: Iran plots to kill Saudi Ambassador on U.S soil

    why would Iran risk everything for such a poorly planned plot? That's the question that isn't being answered. They may be unlikeable to many but they aren't stupid.

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    Re: Iran plots to kill Saudi Ambassador on U.S soil

    Quote Originally Posted by oscar View Post
    Entrapment is typically only a defense If a suspect is pressured into committing a crime they would probably not have committed otherwise. EG If undercover officers coerced a potential suspect Into manufacturing illegal drugs to sell them, then the accused could use entrapment as a defense. However, If a suspect is already manufacturing drugs and police pose as buyers to catch him, then entrapment usually has not occurred.
    The prosecution has to prove there was no Intent and it was a case a entrapment.
    You're using all the right words but only about UK law, none of this applies in the US. That's been my point throughout. The lack of these restraints is why the FBI behaves in an unrestrained manner. All of those comments you've made in the quote box above are irrelevant in the US.

    As your reference says (and I note your reference has nothing to do with what's in the quote box), "Entrapment requires the defendant to show that he was not predisposed to commit the crime, so that the crime was instigated by the government rather than by himself". That's the US position. Not predisposed? I take that to mean, taking out the double negative, that he was disposed to do it even if incapable. We're discussing state of mind as opposed to actual risk. The man's being prosecuted for what he thought, up until his FBI Fairy Godmother said your wishes can become true and it'll cost you nothing at all. Without the appearance of the FBI Fairy Godmother nothing at all would ever have happened, because the chap was utterly incapable of enacting his fantasies even had he decided to try (which is demonstrably a thing he'd never done in the past).

    Assuming I've roughly described reality would you approve of what they're doing?
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    Re: Iran plots to kill Saudi Ambassador on U.S soil

    Quote Originally Posted by koan View Post
    why would Iran risk everything for such a poorly planned plot? That's the question that isn't being answered. They may be unlikeable to many but they aren't stupid.
    That question's discussed in some detail at BBC News - Iran 'plot' raises unanswered questions
    Firstly, why would the Quds Force use Mr Arbabsiar as its principal agent for what would have been one of the boldest operations in its history? Reports say that he has a criminal record in Texas for evading arrest and theft. "I would be surprised if the Quds Force used such an unreliable asset in its operations given his track record," Prof Lucas.

    Secondly, why would the Quds Force believe that a Mexican drug cartel would be prepared to carry out a bomb attack in Washington? Mexican drug cartels are multi-billion dollar businesses interested in self-preservation. Carrying out a major attack in Washington DC for the relatively small sum of $1.5m would risk bringing the US military on to the cartels' own ground in Mexico.

    It may be that the Quds Force is more amateur or reckless in the planning of its operations than previously thought. But many will want an answer to a simple question: why would this special branch of the Revolutionary Guards seek such a dramatic change in the way that it operates?
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    England's troubles will increase until the bishops open Joanna Southcott's box.
    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

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    Re: Iran plots to kill Saudi Ambassador on U.S soil

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    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    You're using all the right words but only about UK law, none of this applies in the US. That's been my point throughout. The lack of these restraints is why the FBI behaves in an unrestrained manner. All of those comments you've made in the quote box above are irrelevant in the US.

    As your reference says (and I note your reference has nothing to do with what's in the quote box), "Entrapment requires the defendant to show that he was not predisposed to commit the crime, so that the crime was instigated by the government rather than by himself". That's the US position. Not predisposed? I take that to mean, taking out the double negative, that he was disposed to do it even if incapable. We're discussing state of mind as opposed to actual risk. The man's being prosecuted for what he thought, up until his FBI Fairy Godmother said your wishes can become true and it'll cost you nothing at all. Without the appearance of the FBI Fairy Godmother nothing at all would ever have happened, because the chap was utterly incapable of enacting his fantasies even had he decided to try (which is demonstrably a thing he'd never done in the past).

    Assuming I've roughly described reality would you approve of what they're doing?

    This case set a precedent It seems and now seems perfectly legal In the US.

    As to your question, If the dupe was deemed to be a serious risk to National Security, then Yes, a sting would be acceptable.
    The point I keep trying to make Is that the FBI can not surely just determine to set up John Doe. It has to be someone who has come to their attention In the past and maybe when this dupe gets to court, we may hear of his past dealings.

    The whole case If pleading entrapment, will centre on the dupes state of mind as you said.
    Now by sheer co-Incidence, I would not have believed that prosecution could present a case of state of mind to a Jury and have them convict on It until I saw one of the most awful cases In US law very recently that conviction all depended on state of mind.

    This Is the case and worth a look because this conviction was for second degree murder based on state of mind.

    Lawyer found guilty of murder after dog mauling | Mail Online

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