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Thread: Science of intuition as matter of fact

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    Re: Science of intuition as matter of fact

    I can provide the whiskey and chips, the sour you'll find elsewhere on the boards.
    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”
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  2. #12
    Senior Member K.Snyder's Avatar
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    Re: Science of intuition as matter of fact

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite light View Post
    A couple of years ago, in a far away galaxy, I tried to argue that intuition was the only way one could possibly learn of God's existence. In response I was villified. It was--and is--my firm belief that the logical mind is incapable of deducing God. It is impossible to prove a sentient creator via science or logic alone. I tried to prove this by explaining that the best science could do would be to prove emphatically and without doubt that the physical universe could not be its own reason for existing. I say this because anything beyond that would require the participation of the God we seek. God would have to convey its existence in such a manner that it would leave no doubt in the minds of most that it truly existed. But that scenario wouldn't be so much a scientific discovery as it would be a revelation due to divine grace; and that's something quite different from a purely scientific discovery. For example, if mankind built a machine for the purpose of communicating with the spirit world, and messages were recieved that were so brilliant, so wise, so profound that folks might reasonably conclude that we finally found the old boy. But here again, that's less a scientific discovery and more a revelation. After all, if God had been feeling tired that day, our machine would have been scrap metal.

    To take this to the next level, let's say science has done such a thing; that is, proven without any doubt--100 percent for sure--the universe could not have created itself, or be eternal of its own accord. Have we proven God? I say positively not. It's nothing more than an argument from ignorance to declare God's existence at this point. We don't run out into the street exclaiming, "Yahoooooo, god exists!! ah haaa! we found you god!!" Because unless God participates in our discovery of "him" then he will never be found. There would always remain sensible doubts that perhaps our science was mistaken or that our knowledge is incomplete.

    So science and logic alone cannot prove God.

    The only way I can conceive of one attaining sure knowledge of God is via a revelation. In addtion, it would have to be by intuition that one is able to transcend the logical hurdles, and know without doubt that God was the source of that experience. The experience is not judged to be of God based on how beautiful or amazing it may have been; it is known to be of God because of the irrefutable knowledge of God's existence attained in the experience. God is not miraculously deduced from the experience; instead God's existence is known as a concrete intuition, inspired by divine revelation. In other words, one simply knows that they know, not by scientific means, but the intuitive mind responding to divine intervention.

    Oh, whatever.

    An absolute can only be given in an intuition, while all the rest has to do with analysis.~Henri Bergson
    Wouldn't this be a paradox when considering the possibility of one's disbelief in a creator being purely a "figment" of intuition?

    As per my analogy of complementarity one would either have to believe or not, or perhaps know or not know, of one or the other position. Since to know one means to not know the other how do we recognize what intuition actually is, thus eventually coming to terms of agreement as whether intuition is just as instinctual as we see it...

    Perhaps it all can be explained. Explained in the sense that these two positions are in fact the same just observed differently during different frames of mind...

    It's my intuition that agrees with reductionism...How could individual fundamental matter not explain the workings of a whole? It's inconceivable to suggest otherwise...

    In the same sense the more we study Newtonian physics the more we do not understand quantum mechanics and vica versa ultimately serving as a metaphor between the paradoxical analogies between physics and divine knowledge that's symbolic by the concept of "God"...

    Or, simply, the more we try and understand either side of the spectrum the more we are unable to associate with the other ending in a mislabled assumption of preference, which invariably defines our position. I only wonder "why?" and then have to begin all over again...

    Or as you put it,.."Oh, whatever."

  3. #13
    Junior Member Infinite light's Avatar
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    Re: Science of intuition as matter of fact

    K.Snyder:

    Your post may be too esoteric for me to wrap my brain around. But I'll say this: There could be no paradox in the mind of the one who has had the revelatory experience. That's what I meant when I said the intuitive mind would have to transcend all logical objections, and let's face it, there are plenty of logical objections. On purely logical grounds, one could list many reasons to reject the experience. The most obvious is that any claimed revelation seems to require circular reasoning. Inherent to the claim of revelation is a presumption of god's existence:

    "I had a revelation of God last night."

    "How do you know?"

    "Because he told me."

    It seems to be an unsolvable problem. But for the one who has had the experience logical exceptions are like a flea on an elephant's butt; its presence may be known, but it is helpless against the elephant's will. Likewise, the intuitive knowledge gained in the experience is the elephant, and the logical objections the flea. The intuitive cognition would have to be an irreducible truth that no logical objections could contradict.

    I'm simply saying that this is the way it must be, that's all. Restated, if one is ever going to attain the highest degree of certitude in the mind, then it will have had to occur as I have related. Because, again, there are so many...MANY logical reasons to doubt the experience that there must be some way for the mind to go above and beyond those objections and know god in the experience. And that "something" is intuition. Honestly, I see no way around this.

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    Senior Member K.Snyder's Avatar
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    Re: Science of intuition as matter of fact

    What I find ironic is that we have phenomena such as savant syndrome yet people tend to associate things like this as being a "disability" when in fact these people should be seen as geniuses...Perhaps some of these individuals consider this a "curse", which I would suggest is their prerogative, I think the word "disability" shouldn't even be a consideration when attempting to describe these individuals.

    Is savant syndrome purely instinctual or is it an acquired skill? What roll does intuition play in such apparently extraordinary skills?

    Amazing these phenomena and yet society looks at it as a "disability"...How sad. What an absolute shame.

    It's incredibly ironic in my mind for a society to be so enveloped into a scientific mode of thought and yet when one lacks social skills while displaying levels of genius in the sciences we get terms like "disabled" and "brain dysfunction"...

    Savant syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Historical figures sometimes considered autistic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Then we have that principle of complementarity thing that yet again is analogous of intuitions role in science...

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    Re: Science of intuition as matter of fact

    I'm a member of society and I don't consider differences in people as "disabilities", or "syndromes", though, if one sees these differences as hindering survival ability, I understand that. So, from that perspective I can see the 'disabled" label. Unfortunately, we have come to a place where we don't permit natural selection to work, we've instead decided to engage in preferred selection and have been debating the preferences ad nauseum, going nowhere fast, overpopulating the planet.
    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”
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    Senior Member K.Snyder's Avatar
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    Re: Science of intuition as matter of fact

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahso! View Post
    I'm a member of society and I don't consider differences in people as "disabilities", or "syndromes", though, if one sees these differences as hindering survival ability, I understand that. So, from that perspective I can see the 'disabled" label. Unfortunately, we have come to a place where we don't permit natural selection to work, we've instead decided to engage in preferred selection and have been debating the preferences ad nauseum, going nowhere fast, overpopulating the planet.
    Which you would suggest is due to societies social structure?

    This isn't true in the world of economics. If a person produces then that person is preserved thus leading to an acceptable social status equal to said persons contributions.

    If we take a look at Einstein and Newton we see just how influential these people were on their respective societies yet
    Ioan James, Michael Fitzgerald, and Simon Baron-Cohen believe their personalities are consistent with those of people with Asperger syndrome; Tony Attwood has also named Einstein as a likely case of mild autism
    along with Charles Darwin, Emily Dickenson, George Orwell, Paul Dirac, Thomas Jefferson, and Mozart.

    And a point I might add that survival ability has become less and less important considering the advancements in technology we've observed...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histori..._autistic#List

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    Re: Science of intuition as matter of fact

    What I've learned about myself regarding this subject is that when it comes to considering it, values must be stripped away in order to examine its core. That's what I meant when I mentioned 'preferred selection'. Has Natural Selection mutated into Preferred selection? Perhaps.

    Categorizing our species' members into groups seems to be the natural progression of the evolution of the brain and thus 'group selection' on a conscience level.

    The facts are that those categorized with Asperger's Syndrome are those who have, over time, become quite well equipped with very finely tuned survival skills as to have become such, as we're learning, an enormous segment of the world's population. There have been so many people being diagnosed with Asperger's lately that the psychological community has decided it needed to become more restrictive about the diagnosis. Savants and highly Autistic people would not survive nearly as well or as long as those labeled as Aspies.

    One thing's for certain and that is: there is no figuring out (in order to predict) Natural Selection. That's what scares us so much about Natural Selection, no one is controlling the process, but we're certainly trying.
    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”
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    I have only one thing to do and that's
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    Senior Member K.Snyder's Avatar
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    Re: Science of intuition as matter of fact

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahso! View Post
    Savants and highly Autistic people would not survive nearly as well or as long as those labeled as Aspies.
    It's just that I can't think of one moment in history, from the dawn of mankind, whatever that may be, when humans were ever expected to survive on their own.

    Autism may just be the very need for natural selection to shine Ahso! I've never met more highly intelligent people that equals said intelligence with sheer kindness...

    Everything we fail to understand about autism at the same time just how irrefutably priceless some of those diagnosed with autism are to society and a seemingly appropriate connection between savant syndrome and intuition that seems far too coincidental to be considered different.

    When we consider the possible understanding of autism we then might completely understand intuition which might shed some light on what I feel is a direct connection between philosophy and physics.

    Then I'm hit with such a disgust for reductionism by those more appreciative of liberal arts and can't help but ask why they both have to be mutually exclusive.

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    Re: Science of intuition as matter of fact

    I just typed a careful reply to this only to lose it to a server error. I'm not sure when I'll be up to redoing the post. Sorry.
    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”
    Voltaire

    I have only one thing to do and that's
    Be the wave that I am and then
    Sink back into the ocean

    Fiona Apple

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    Senior Member K.Snyder's Avatar
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    Re: Science of intuition as matter of fact

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahso! View Post
    I just typed a careful reply to this only to lose it to a server error. I'm not sure when I'll be up to redoing the post. Sorry.
    Sorry buddy, perhaps your visual memory will help

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