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Thread: Criminalization

  1. #11
    Senior Member Bruv's Avatar
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    Re: Criminalization

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    . You need society to accept criminalization as wrong and then the law will no longer exist.
    Why is it wrong ?
    Those who are currently criminalized might well choose to enter that sort of program in order to changer their behavior. The current practice of criminalizing them is barbaric.
    They choose to 'enter the program' by there behaviour ,but not the same as the inmates of Broadmore 'choose'

    It may be that I'm not taking many of you with me on this exploration but that doesn't make me wrong.
    I think you have that right at least
    I need society to accept that a criminalized person is indeed a human being as good as anyone else and not an inferior form.
    Where do you get the idea that anybody thinks that criminals are not human beings ?
    Are you equating criminals with slaves ?
    Criminality with the slave trade ?
    By your reasoning murderers would be 'on the program' and we would just have to be aware they are amongst us, as with the Bernie Madoffs of the world doing their non criminal thing....................just like the wild west ?
    I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth

  2. #12
    Senior Member K.Snyder's Avatar
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    Re: Criminalization

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    I'm not sure I got my point across very well by the look of it.

    Back in the old days people would have laughed at his victims for being rubes, hicks, gulls. It was a matter of personal evaluation whether you trusted an advisor with money. Then the law stepped in and criminalized financial con-tricks, so everyone dropped their guard and said hey, it'd be illegal to run a Ponzi scheme so this must be a legitimate way to double up every five years, wow. And he took fifty billion dollars, where before the criminalization he'd have been laughed out of town.

    The fault is the law that gave the investors their sense of invulnerability, not the con-man. If the laws were revoked the public would do its own job of assessing risk, the way it always used to.
    Perhaps it would be better suited to suggest the law should have been in place in the old days allowing for the same effect at no expense to morality. A particular morality that would promote a far greater sense of humility and honor than vica versa.

    If it's practicality that leaves me little suggestion questionable I'd say the effects can already be observed by the example of the case vs Bernie Madoff.

  3. #13
    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: Criminalization

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruv View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by spot
    You need society to accept criminalization as wrong and then the law will no longer exist.
    Why is it wrong ?
    The future's not arrived so I'm guessing, but my guess would be that they'd regard criminalization as scapegoating the individual for the failure of society. When society has been fixed, whatever antisocial behavior remains would be regarded as a disease to be cured.

    The atavistic error of our times is our continuing simplistic belief in sin. The criminalized are paying the price of our collective failure to discard this corrosive pre-enlightenment monotheist baggage.
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    High Priestess of Cardis theia's Avatar
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    Re: Criminalization

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    The future's not arrived so I'm guessing, but my guess would be that they'd regard criminalization as scapegoating the individual for the failure of society. When society has been fixed, whatever antisocial behavior remains would be regarded as a disease to be cured.

    The atavistic error of our times is our continuing simplistic belief in sin. The criminalized are paying the price of our collective failure to discard that corrosive pre-enlightenment monotheist baggage.
    In my opinion, society, being a collection of individuals, could only undergo such a change by sufficient individuals examining their own judgments and projections and subsequently bringing their findings to the whole, and for these findings to be accepted by the majority.

    I don't believe that transferring the notion of criminalisation, for antisocial behaviour, to a disease that can be cured, would be particularly helpful.
    Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke

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    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: Criminalization

    Quote Originally Posted by theia View Post
    In my opinion, society, being a collection of individuals, could only undergo such a change by sufficient individuals examining their own judgments and projections and subsequently bringing their findings to the whole, and for these findings to be accepted by the majority.

    I don't believe that transferring the notion of criminalisation, for antisocial behaviour, to a disease that can be cured, would be particularly helpful.
    If you have a think about it theia, both the first paragraph and the second paragraph would have looked quite reasonable statements (replacing crime-words with slave-words) if written in 1750 about slavery from the point of view of, for example, a sugar plantation owner in Jamaica or a part-owner of a ship engaged in the slave trade.

    How do you distinguish your position now from their position then? They were influenced by acceptability, the cultural norm and "it's the way it works". Aren't you?
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    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
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  6. #16
    High Priestess of Cardis theia's Avatar
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    Re: Criminalization

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    If you have a think about it theia, both the first paragraph and the second paragraph would have looked quite reasonable statements (replacing crime-words with slave-words) if written in 1750 about slavery from the point of view of, for example, a sugar plantation owner in Jamaica or a part-owner of a ship engaged in the slave trade.

    How do you distinguish your position now from their position then? They were influenced by acceptability, the cultural norm and "it's the way it works". Aren't you?
    Yes of course I am...but I like Jung's theory that we spend the first half of our lives struggling to build up our egos and the second half of our lives examining who we really are, a painful and much avoided path for all of us but one which rings true for me. For me, change must come from the inside.

    I wasn't quite sure what you meant in the first part of your post above, so I haven't responded to it.
    Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke

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    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: Criminalization

    Quote Originally Posted by theia View Post
    I wasn't quite sure what you meant in the first part of your post above, so I haven't responded to it.
    If I reword your post to refer to slavery during its heyday perhaps I'll be clearer. I wondered whether what you wrote differs in reasonableness from what I change it to:

    What you wrote discussing criminalization now:
    In my opinion, society, being a collection of individuals, could only undergo such a change by sufficient individuals examining their own judgments and projections and subsequently bringing their findings to the whole, and for these findings to be accepted by the majority.

    I don't believe that transferring the notion of criminalisation, for antisocial behaviour, to a disease that can be cured, would be particularly helpful.
    Changed to this, discussing slavery in 1750:
    In my opinion, society, being a collection of individuals, could only undergo such a change by sufficient individuals examining their own judgments and projections and subsequently bringing their findings to the whole, and for these findings to be accepted by the majority.

    I don't believe that abandoning the commercial advantage for British traders and colonists to own and sell black Africans and their descendants as slaves would be particularly helpful. Minimum standards of care have been provided for all slaves through legislation. The property rights of the owners outweigh any remaining disadvantage to the slaves.
    I've left your first paragraph untouched - William Wilberforce himself might have written it.
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

  8. #18
    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: Criminalization

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruv View Post
    1. Why is it wrong ?
    2. They choose to 'enter the program' by there behaviour ,but not the same as the inmates of Broadmore 'choose'
    3. Where do you get the idea that anybody thinks that criminals are not human beings ?
    4. Are you equating criminals with slaves ? Criminality with the slave trade ?
    5. By your reasoning murderers would be 'on the program' and we would just have to be aware they are amongst us, as with the Bernie Madoffs of the world doing their non criminal thing....................just like the wild west ?
    1. That's the subject of the entire thread. My argument is that you might just as well have asked "why is slavery wrong" or "why is discrimination against women wrong".
    2. I've not excluded the idea of sectioning people, it depends on what their behavior has been. The inmates of Broadmoor aren't criminals, they're people diagnosed as curably ill by psychiatrists. Broadmoor explicitly refuses to take the incurable. It's a secure hospital.
    3. Previous threads expressing vile prejudice against the criminalized. Throw away the key, Bubba can deal with him, the inmates will know what to do, it goes on and on.
    4. Yes and yes, I'm comparing our detestation of slavery now with how I think our descendants will detest our current criminalization policy when seen from their future perspective.
    5. Why focus on murderers? Why jump to the extreme edge instead of finding the core? Many people are criminalized, few of them are murderers. On the extreme edge I'd expect compulsory indefinite sectioning for voluntary treatment. For the vast majority I'd expect support groups. Looking at Bernie Madoff's case for example, I'm quite keen to get those who would blithely and greedily hand him money to rely instead on their wit and discrimination in future. What he did is only labelled a crime because we've allowed the state to criminalize more and more of us. Bernie Madoff shouldn't be regarded as any more criminal than a fairground shyster. It's shameful that he's in jail.
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

  9. #19
    High Priestess of Cardis theia's Avatar
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    Re: Criminalization

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    If I reword your post to refer to slavery during its heyday perhaps I'll be clearer. I wondered whether what you wrote differs in reasonableness from what I change it to:

    What you wrote discussing criminalization now:
    In my opinion, society, being a collection of individuals, could only undergo such a change by sufficient individuals examining their own judgments and projections and subsequently bringing their findings to the whole, and for these findings to be accepted by the majority.

    I don't believe that transferring the notion of criminalisation, for antisocial behaviour, to a disease that can be cured, would be particularly helpful.
    Changed to this, discussing slavery in 1750:
    In my opinion, society, being a collection of individuals, could only undergo such a change by sufficient individuals examining their own judgments and projections and subsequently bringing their findings to the whole, and for these findings to be accepted by the majority.

    I don't believe that abandoning the commercial advantage for British traders and colonists to own and sell black Africans and their descendants as slaves would be particularly helpful. Minimum standards of care have been provided for all slaves through legislation. The property rights of the owners outweigh any remaining disadvantage to the slaves.
    I've left your first paragraph untouched - William Wilberforce himself might have written it.
    What I was attempting to say was that "criminal" would merely be replaced with "diseased." In my opinion, precious little would change.

    Although, on reflection, surely there are very few of us who could claim to be "disease" free, be it physically or mentally, so maybe it could have a levelling effect?
    Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke

  10. #20
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    Re: Criminalization

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    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    The future's not arrived so I'm guessing, but my guess would be that they'd regard criminalization as scapegoating the individual for the failure of society. When society has been fixed, whatever antisocial behavior remains would be regarded as a disease to be cured.

    The atavistic error of our times is our continuing simplistic belief in sin. The criminalized are paying the price of our collective failure to discard this corrosive pre-enlightenment monotheist baggage.
    So what you are really saying Is that all the victems of Bernie Maddoff deserve all they get for falling for his fraud and you being such a smartarsse, would never be conned In such a manner?

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