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Thread: Criminalization

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    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Criminalization

    There's a recent thread about race hate that's got me thinking about the history of acceptability. There was a time when genocide was considered a valuable and lawful option for migrants, a time when women had no equal opportunity protection, a time when slavery was just a profitable business choice.

    So I wondered what we could predict about today's world that will be looked back on by our descendants with abhorrence. My candidate is criminalization.

    A person used to be declared a slave by applying legislation. A person nowadays is declared to be a criminal by applying legislation. In both cases a law is passed which allows the status of slave or criminal to be attributed to a person. Without those laws a person could be neither a slave nor a criminal.

    The very concept of such a status - "slave" - appals most people now. I suggest the very concept of the status "criminal" will have get similar reaction in the future.

    I also wondered how to get the notion discussed and Bernie Madoff sprang to mind. He's a chap who, had he done two hundred years ago what he did over the last twenty, would have broken no laws whatever and consequently not been a criminal. Now he's been criminalized by the application of laws. He's in jail serving a 150 year sentence.

    Bernie Madoff is a criminal because a law exists which says he's a criminal, just as Dred Scott was a slave because a law existed which said he was a slave.

    What's appalling isn't Bernie Madoff, it's the law.

    In order to classify criminalization as unacceptable behavior at all levels of society I propose we start by petitioning for the immediate release of Bernie Madoff. Nothing he did is even immoral as seen through the eyes of the eighteenth century, there's no reason for the law to have criminalized what he did.

    Free Bernie Madoff.
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    Re: Criminalization

    Hmmmmmmmmmm American law It seems Spot.

    Bernie Madoff pleaded guilty to 11 federal felonies and admitted he set up the Ponzi scheme to defraud Investors.

    What part of his admission of fraud do you think needs reviewing ?

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    Re: Criminalization

    In the vernacular, you do my head in Spot.

    Bernie Madoff is a criminal because he mugged the punters out of loads of dosh.
    He may have been cuter than the mugger that snatches handbags off old ladies, but whatever label you want to attach what he did was not good.
    I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth

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    Re: Criminalization

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruv View Post
    In the vernacular, you do my head in Spot.

    Bernie Madoff is a criminal because he mugged the punters out of loads of dosh.
    He may have been cuter than the mugger that snatches handbags off old ladies, but whatever label you want to attach what he did was not good.
    Give him a few days and he'll be banging on about Charles Manson being set up Illegally by the FBI...



    Bernie Madoff: I Can Live With The Anger of Victims | Benzinga

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    High Priestess of Cardis theia's Avatar
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    Re: Criminalization

    Quote Originally Posted by oscar View Post
    Give him a few days and he'll be banging on about Charles Manson being set up Illegally by the FBI...

    Or even starting a petition for the rights of golli***s
    Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke

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    Re: Criminalization

    Quote Originally Posted by theia View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by oscar View Post
    Give him a few days and he'll be banging on about Charles Manson being set up Illegally by the FBI...

    Or even starting a petition for the rights of golli***s
    Stop It... You'll give me Idea's

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    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: Criminalization

    I'm not sure I got my point across very well by the look of it.

    Back in the old days people would have laughed at his victims for being rubes, hicks, gulls. It was a matter of personal evaluation whether you trusted an advisor with money. Then the law stepped in and criminalized financial con-tricks, so everyone dropped their guard and said hey, it'd be illegal to run a Ponzi scheme so this must be a legitimate way to double up every five years, wow. And he took fifty billion dollars, where before the criminalization he'd have been laughed out of town.

    The fault is the law that gave the investors their sense of invulnerability, not the con-man. If the laws were revoked the public would do its own job of assessing risk, the way it always used to.
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    Re: Criminalization

    posted by spot
    A person used to be declared a slave by applying legislation. A person nowadays is declared to be a criminal by applying legislation. In both cases a law is passed which allows the status of slave or criminal to be attributed to a person. Without those laws a person could be neither a slave nor a criminal.
    The law is how we regulate our society. We develop laws as a means to control our interaction with each other. Most laws are designed to protect the weak from the strong. We now find slavery abhorrent but people became slaves because they were not strong enough to fend off those stronger than themselves and enslaved weaker tribes when they could. You also have the notion of a free man and laws promulgated to protect his status so they could not be enslaved at the whim of someone more powerful and with courts of appeal where disputes could be settled and the weak get support against those who would abuse their position - the notion that all must obey the law is an old one that got lost a bit in the mists of time in favour of divine right of kings and hereditary rule. You could move from slave to freeman even if born a slave and freeman to slave if you committed a crime, at least in theory.

    Slavery is interesting as it took religion to develop the notion that some races were born to be inferior and turned that in to an article of faith to make it easier to keep them subjugated at a time when society was developing the notion that all are equal and challenging the right of someone to rule because of their birth and that no one should be above the law. We still have slavery you know, it's just hidden because of a puritanical reluctance to talk about it, we like to pretend we are better than our predecessors, and we are I think but even so.

    Bernie Madoff is a criminal because a law exists which says he's a criminal, just as Dred Scott was a slave because a law existed which said he was a slave.
    He's a criminal because he's a liar and a cheat and would be in any time, the criminal law is how we deal with people like him. He's lucky he lives in a civilised time and wasnl;t lynched. . Dred scott was a slave because of a law and also because those who thought it wrong were too weak to prevent it happening. You need society to accept slavery as wrong and then the law will follow. Moreover you need society to accept that a ***** was indeed a human being as good as anyone else and not an inferior form. They dodged the issue by declaring he was not a citizen of the united states and *****es could not be. otherwise it would have meant slavery was unconstitutional. . Law does not exist of itself and has no authority except that which society chooses to give it.

    By way of contrast 1772 slavery in england effectively ended as it was judged that slavery as such did not exist in English common law therefore no one could be held a slave. The last serf's in the UK were colliers Until the end of the 18th century the collier was a serf, bound in servitude to his master, the coal owner, almost as tightly as any slave on the cotton plantations of the Americas. Although he could not actually be sold as an individual, - hence not a slave - he and his family were ranked with any other article attached to the colliery to be bought and sold along with lengths of rail or stacks of timber. Once bound to a pit they had no right to move to another place of work and could be brought back to face severe punishment if they tried. Many did just that and were returned in manacles to face the wrath of the owners. Convicted criminals, beggars and other homeless people were gifted as 'perpetual servants' to the masters and, children born to collier families were, on payment by the owner of a small sum of money, bound like their fathers to the owner and his pit for life. It took a change in attitude and fear of rebellion to change that and make it illegal. In reality the weak will always be ruled by the strong, if you want to be free make sure those who would rule are frightened of annoying the peasants too much. Keep standing armies small so they can't be used against the people.

    What's appalling isn't Bernie Madoff, it's the law.

    In order to classify criminalization as unacceptable behavior at all levels of society I propose we start by petitioning for the immediate release of Bernie Madoff. Nothing he did is even immoral as seen through the eyes of the eighteenth century, there's no reason for the law to have criminalized what he did.
    What utter bollocks. Bernie madoff is a liar, a thief and a conman what he did would have got him killed by his irate victims in another age.

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    Re: Criminalization

    Quote Originally Posted by gmc View Post
    He's a criminal because he's a liar and a cheat and would be in any time, the criminal law is how we deal with people like him. He's lucky he lives in a civilised time and wasnl;t lynched. . Dred scott was a slave because of a law and also because those who thought it wrong were too weak to prevent it happening. You need society to accept slavery as wrong and then the law will follow.
    That's my point in a nutshell, really. What will happen in the future. You need society to accept criminalization as wrong and then the law will no longer exist. It may be there will still be constraint in a few circumstances but I see that in the sense that Broadmoor involves constraint of people who aren't classified as criminal.

    Alcoholism isn't treated by locking up alcoholics, it's treated by consensual effort on the part of the alcoholic and his support group. Those who are currently criminalized might well choose to enter that sort of program in order to changer their behavior. The current practice of criminalizing them is barbaric.

    It may be that I'm not taking many of you with me on this exploration but that doesn't make me wrong. I need society to accept that a criminalized person is indeed a human being as good as anyone else and not an inferior form.
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    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

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    High Priestess of Cardis theia's Avatar
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    Re: Criminalization

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    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    That's my point in a nutshell, really. What will happen in the future. You need society to accept criminalization as wrong and then the law will no longer exist. It may be there will still be constraint in a few circumstances but I see that in the sense that Broadmoor involves constraint of people who aren't classified as criminal.

    Alcoholism isn't treated by locking up alcoholics, it's treated by consensual effort on the part of the alcoholic and his support group. Those who are currently criminalized might well choose to enter that sort of program in order to changer their behavior. The current practice of criminalizing them is barbaric.

    It may be that I'm not taking many of you with me on this exploration but that doesn't make me wrong. I need society to accept that a criminalized person is indeed a human being as good as anyone else and not an inferior form.
    I don't see a criminalised person as an inferior form and I'm confident that I'm not alone in this. In the 90s I worked in an inner city drop in centre for ex-offenders, the homeless and people who were addicted to drugs and alcohol. I admired them all as fellow human beings. They somehow appeared to be more real than most of us because they had come closer to their pain/darker sides than most of us would dare to go.

    However, I believe that when a person commits a cruel act towards another, they should be answerable to our legal system.
    Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke

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