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Thread: High School Student Sues against having to wear an RF ID Badge

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    Senior Member Accountable's Avatar
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    Re: High School Student Sues against having to wear an RF ID Badge

    Quote Originally Posted by Wandrin View Post
    I'd be interested in knowing what the girl's career plans are, given her religious beliefs. If she won't be able to drive or work for companies that issue IDs, her options are limited. She would also have to do a lot of investigation to find a college that is acceptable to her beliefs. In clothes shopping, she would have to be very careful since RFID tags are becoming much more prevalent. She couldn't travel outside the US because of the passport. She couldn't have a cell phone, since those can be location traced. As the trend continues, she will find fewer and fewer areas of life that don't involve ID or traceability.

    From the school's perspective, I could see how it would be beneficial to know where students are, especially during an emergency.
    If the religion thing is real, she might be planning to marry and have a lot of kids. It's more likely she hasn't thought that far. It could be that she's trying to please psych-Christian Daddy. I remember, but I can't find any older news stories, that the original objection was to the chip, not the IDs. I suspect that the religion tack is a lawyer's tactic.

    But isn't all that irrelevant when it comes to the question? Should a student be allowed a waiver to obey school policy because of religious reasons? I know many people reading this will be tempted to cook up some wild-ass extreme example, but please don't. She doesn't want to wear the ID. Is it that far-fetched? Should a Muslim girl be allowed to wear a burkha (or however you spell it) to school? Should a Jewish boy be allowed to wear his yamaka if the school doesn't allow hats? How about a sikh boy wearing a turban?

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    Re: High School Student Sues against having to wear an RF ID Badge

    Quote Originally Posted by SnoozeAgain View Post
    So is this something different?

    Real ID deadlines looms | Homeland Security News Wire

    I dunno if my driver's license has the chip but there are bar codes all over the back of it.

    PS sorry for all the typos in my last post, it's difficult typing on my phone.
    According to the last couple of paragraphs, I think it's more the background checks & such required ... at least for now.

    New Mexico has no prohibitions against compliance, but has been unable to revise state laws to meet the lawful presence requirements set by the federal driver’s license rules.
    That's some scary sh!t there. I got chills reading that phrase.

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    Senior Member Wandrin's Avatar
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    Re: High School Student Sues against having to wear an RF ID Badge

    Quote Originally Posted by Accountable View Post
    But isn't all that irrelevant when it comes to the question? Should a student be allowed a waiver to obey school policy because of religious reasons? I know many people reading this will be tempted to cook up some wild-ass extreme example, but please don't. She doesn't want to wear the ID. Is it that far-fetched? Should a Muslim girl be allowed to wear a burkha (or however you spell it) to school? Should a Jewish boy be allowed to wear his yamaka if the school doesn't allow hats? How about a sikh boy wearing a turban?
    I don't have any problem with the examples you presented. They seem to be perfectly reasonable exceptions. There are other cases where religion was used for less reasonable exceptions. There was a case a year or two ago in (or near) Gilroy, CA) where a student was asked to remove a T-shirt that basically said that all Muslims were going to hell. The school said it was offensive to other students and the students parents cried religious persecution. I don't consider that to be in the same category as a yamaka or Sikh turban.

    Speaking of Sikhs, would you consider the kirpan (ceremonial dagger worn by baptized Sikhs) a reasonable religious exception to the school dress code?

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    Re: High School Student Sues against having to wear an RF ID Badge

    Quote Originally Posted by Wandrin View Post
    I don't have any problem with the examples you presented. They seem to be perfectly reasonable exceptions. There are other cases where religion was used for less reasonable exceptions. There was a case a year or two ago in (or near) Gilroy, CA) where a student was asked to remove a T-shirt that basically said that all Muslims were going to hell. The school said it was offensive to other students and the students parents cried religious persecution. I don't consider that to be in the same category as a yamaka or Sikh turban.
    So which category does this girl & the ID issue fall into - innocuous hat or offensive T-shirt? For me, it would be more with the hats, because the T-shirt was an expression against another religion, as opposed to a "Jesus Saves" t-shirt, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wandrin View Post
    Speaking of Sikhs, would you consider the kirpan (ceremonial dagger worn by baptized Sikhs) a reasonable religious exception to the school dress code?
    Yeh, that came up some years back. Those are real blades - sharp. If it was an all-Sikh school (or even if it was mostly Sikh) then I would probably argue to allow it. But since there is a danger for violence & injury - not from the Sikh, but from others who might not respect the symbolism stealing and using the dagger - then I would reluctantly argue against allowing it.

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    Senior Member K.Snyder's Avatar
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    Re: High School Student Sues against having to wear an RF ID Badge

    Instead of assuming this girl wants public notoriety, for whatever reason, why not look at her objections from a social point of view?

    To object to the chip would be the equivalent to objecting to the contentedness of society doing nothing to prevent an obvious problem. To place chips on ID badges does nothing but relieve the symptoms as opposed to curing the disease.

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    Senior Member Accountable's Avatar
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    Re: High School Student Sues against having to wear an RF ID Badge

    Quote Originally Posted by K.Snyder View Post
    Instead of assuming this girl wants public notoriety, for whatever reason, why not look at her objections from a social point of view?

    To object to the chip would be the equivalent to objecting to the contentedness of society doing nothing to prevent an obvious problem. To place chips on ID badges does nothing but relieve the symptoms as opposed to curing the disease.
    The argument being presented on her behalf is wholly religious.

    But your claim is interesting. What is the disease and what are the symptoms being relieved?

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    Senior Member K.Snyder's Avatar
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    Re: High School Student Sues against having to wear an RF ID Badge

    Quote Originally Posted by Accountable View Post
    The argument being presented on her behalf is wholly religious.

    But your claim is interesting. What is the disease and what are the symptoms being relieved?
    The disease is a particular neglect of our family institutions and the symptoms being relieved is expecting that we can monitor our children in similar ways as opposed to our ability to appeal to them in ways that highlights the importance of an education. An education that broadens their sensibilities and their desire to strive for the higher values in their lives that presuppose civic duty and eventually the civic unity needed to perpetuate the peace any rational human being aspires for.

    Amy Gutmann's "Challenges of multiculturalism in democratic education" is more than worth a read. I have it in a document file. If anyone is interested in reading it just PM me.

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    Senior Member Wandrin's Avatar
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    Re: High School Student Sues against having to wear an RF ID Badge

    Quote Originally Posted by Accountable View Post
    So which category does this girl & the ID issue fall into - innocuous hat or offensive T-shirt? For me, it would be more with the hats, because the T-shirt was an expression against another religion, as opposed to a "Jesus Saves" t-shirt, for example.
    It all depends on the purpose of the ID. If it is designed simply to take attendance and make sure students are sneaking out for a smoke, then the school doesn't really have much of a case. However if the ID is tied to the school's security system so only students and faculty can gain entry to the school, or is part of the emergency preparedness in the case of a Sandy Hook type incident, then it becomes a school safety issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Accountable View Post
    Yeh, that came up some years back. Those are real blades - sharp. If it was an all-Sikh school (or even if it was mostly Sikh) then I would probably argue to allow it. But since there is a danger for violence & injury - not from the Sikh, but from others who might not respect the symbolism stealing and using the dagger - then I would reluctantly argue against allowing it.
    I agree with you.

    There was an interesting case when I was in elementary school, back when both the Lord's Prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance were mandatory at the start of each day. A student transferred to the school and his branch of Christianity forbade him to swear an oath to any secular institution. The homeroom teacher mishandled it badly. She would loudly proclaim, "Anyone who does not love America or feel loyal to it must now leave the room" (or similar words) and would send the poor kid to go stand in the hallway until the pledge was completed. Needless to say, this approached caused problems for the kid and made him the target of bullying.

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    Re: High School Student Sues against having to wear an RF ID Badge

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandrin View Post
    It all depends on the purpose of the ID. If it is designed simply to take attendance and make sure students are sneaking out for a smoke, then the school doesn't really have much of a case. However if the ID is tied to the school's security system so only students and faculty can gain entry to the school, or is part of the emergency preparedness in the case of a Sandy Hook type incident, then it becomes a school safety issue.
    I'd initially disagreed. Reasoning: The intent is irrelevant. I eat pork and only intend for it to be used for nutrition, but my intent plays no part in a Jew's or Muslim's prohibition on eating with me. Just as the intent of the dagger wasn't relevant.

    But I see your point about the locks. See, where I have the issue is with the card itself. Sure, complain about the RD thingie if you want to, but once that's gone, so it your complaint. If it is about some kind of number, then an RF ID without a number printed on it should suffice. If it is a key as you describe, carry it in your pocket insteead of displaying it. There are many ways to adjust and still maintain order.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wandrin View Post
    There was an interesting case when I was in elementary school, back when both the Lord's Prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance were mandatory at the start of each day. A student transferred to the school and his branch of Christianity forbade him to swear an oath to any secular institution. The homeroom teacher mishandled it badly. She would loudly proclaim, "Anyone who does not love America or feel loyal to it must now leave the room" (or similar words) and would send the poor kid to go stand in the hallway until the pledge was completed. Needless to say, this approached caused problems for the kid and made him the target of bullying.
    Yeh, she was an idiot. Some teachers even today try to make an issue of it. I choose to keep a passive face and say "okay". If the student was only looking for attention (as has been the case about half the time) then his show disappeared and his only choice was to fit in or not. If not, then the kid did what he felt was right and was accepted. I have yet to have other students say "Well if he ain't standin' I ain't either!" No, most adapt to the teacher's expectation, no matter what it is.

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