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Thread: "The more civilized we become, the less individual liberties we get to keep."

  1. #21
    Senior Member AnneBoleyn's Avatar
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    Re: "The more civilized we become, the less individual liberties we get to keep."

    Quote Originally Posted by Accountable View Post
    No, smartass. Like the freedom guaranteed by the Second Amendment as written. Like the freedom to board a plane without being treated like a convicted felon. Like the freedom to decide your own medical care, to buy insurance or not as you will. Like the freedom to ride a motorcycle without a helmet and feel the wind the way it was meant to feel. Like the freedom to decide to take your child out of an inferior school and enroll her in the better one just down the street. Like the freedom to allow smoking in your own establishment. Like the freedom to buy a large soda.

    Like the freedom to live your life as you wish, even though it might not conform to the status quo.
    My, my. Why didn't you say so in the first place?

  2. #22
    Senior Member Accountable's Avatar
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    Re: "The more civilized we become, the less individual liberties we get to keep."

    Quote Originally Posted by AnneBoleyn View Post
    My, my. Why didn't you say so in the first place?
    Be careful. One might infer that you agree with me.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Scrat's Avatar
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    Re: "The more civilized we become, the less individual liberties we get to keep."

    No, smartass. Like the freedom guaranteed by the Second Amendment as written. Like the freedom to board a plane without being treated like a convicted felon. Like the freedom to decide your own medical care, to buy insurance or not as you will. Like the freedom to ride a motorcycle without a helmet and feel the wind the way it was meant to feel. Like the freedom to decide to take your child out of an inferior school and enroll her in the better one just down the street. Like the freedom to allow smoking in your own establishment. Like the freedom to buy a large soda.

    Like the freedom to live your life as you wish, even though it might not conform to the status quo.
    You'll find that some freedoms have a tendency to interfer with the freedoms of others. If you want to ride without a helmet and get in an accident why should your insurance company pay for the medical costs? You know how insurance works, we all pay collectively into it. Why should I have to pay more because some fool gets his brains splattered all over the highway because he wanted his freedom? Maybe all bikers that want to feel the wind in their hair need to get a special type of insurance just for them?

    I think that we do lose freedoms in a civilized society, you can't avoid it but then freedom is something granted in degrees by the society you live in. Some societies have less, some more most often by necessity.

  4. #24
    Senior Member AnneBoleyn's Avatar
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    Re: "The more civilized we become, the less individual liberties we get to keep."

    Quote Originally Posted by Accountable View Post
    Be careful. One might infer that you agree with me.
    So what?

  5. #25
    Senior Member Accountable's Avatar
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    Re: "The more civilized we become, the less individual liberties we get to keep."

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrat View Post
    You'll find that some freedoms have a tendency to interfer with the freedoms of others. If you want to ride without a helmet and get in an accident why should your insurance company pay for the medical costs? You know how insurance works, we all pay collectively into it. Why should I have to pay more because some fool gets his brains splattered all over the highway because he wanted his freedom? Maybe all bikers that want to feel the wind in their hair need to get a special type of insurance just for them?
    That's a question of business transactions, not law. Insurance pays medical costs when the policy covers them, and it doesn't pay costs not covered. If the insurer wants to require a rider to ride a helmet as a condition of coverage, that's perfectly within their rights. The motorcyclists has the right to agree or refuse. There is no such option when it becomes a legal requirement.


    Quote Originally Posted by Scrat View Post
    I think that we do lose freedoms in a civilized society, you can't avoid it but then freedom is something granted in degrees by the society you live in. Some societies have less, some more most often by necessity.
    I disagree. Freedom cannot be granted. It can only be denied by the society you live in. Disagree? Consider if the society suddenly did not exist. Would you have less freedom or more? Certainly more. Don't let your kneejerk impulse to point out danger cloud the facts. Liberty comes with responsibility. Choices come with consequences. People willingly give up their freedom because they are afraid (or at least unwilling) to face the consequences that balance them.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Bruv's Avatar
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    Re: "The more civilized we become, the less individual liberties we get to keep."

    Quote Originally Posted by Accountable View Post
    Like the freedom guaranteed by the Second Amendment as written. Like the freedom to board a plane without being treated like a convicted felon. Like the freedom to decide your own medical care, to buy insurance or not as you will. Like the freedom to ride a motorcycle without a helmet and feel the wind the way it was meant to feel. Like the freedom to decide to take your child out of an inferior school and enroll her in the better one just down the street. Like the freedom to allow smoking in your own establishment. Like the freedom to buy a large soda.
    I wanted to bring up the 2nd amendment but thought we were sick of gun law threads, so I am glad you mentioned it.

    As societies become more sophisticated the right to protection against repressive government should come from the ballot not from the right to be able to shoot the government's representatives.
    So I don't see a "Right" to bear arms as legitimate.
    I see no reason why such a right shouldn't be limited by licenced use, for the good of the majority.

    Now the "Right" to wear a safety helmet while driving a motor bike ?
    If, as in the UK the medical bill for repairing a broken skull is borne by the general public by way of taxes, a Law stipulates helmets should be worn. If somebody doesn't wear a helmet, medical care is not witheld. Sikhs are exempt by Law from wearing helmets while riding motor bikes. I don't think this qualifies as a "Right" more a responsibility.

    The "Right" to smoke ? Everybody has this right, as an ex smoker I agree there should be a right to agree to self contaminate amongst consenting adults.
    This gets complicated in a society like the UK where healthcare is free at source, so giving non smokers a say in whether they allow free range smoking.

    In a mature sophisticated society medical care costs should be shared.
    Anyone should have to have a "right" to immediate care when needed. I see that as more of a privilige, hence the lower case "right". A civilised modern democracy would give this privilege to it's citizens as a "right"

    The right to choose the school your child attends depends on availability of places.
    This is a housekeeping problem, as long is there is an element for self selection and a way to improve failing schools, only the education is a "Right"

    The sacrosanct "Rights" are listed Here
    I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth

  7. #27
    Senior Member Accountable's Avatar
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    Re: "The more civilized we become, the less individual liberties we get to keep."

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruv View Post
    I wanted to bring up the 2nd amendment but thought we were sick of gun law threads, so I am glad you mentioned it.

    As societies become more sophisticated the right to protection against repressive government should come from the ballot not from the right to be able to shoot the government's representatives.
    So I don't see a "Right" to bear arms as legitimate.
    I see no reason why such a right shouldn't be limited by licenced use, for the good of the majority.
    The right to protection against repressive government should come from the ballot, and it does. That doesn't negate the prudence of being prepared in case the ballot fails.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruv View Post
    Now the "Right" to wear a safety helmet while driving a motor bike ?
    If, as in the UK the medical bill for repairing a broken skull is borne by the general public by way of taxes, a Law stipulates helmets should be worn. If somebody doesn't wear a helmet, medical care is not witheld. Sikhs are exempt by Law from wearing helmets while riding motor bikes. I don't think this qualifies as a "Right" more a responsibility.
    So then you agree that as you have become more "civilised" by absorbing everyone's responsibility to care for themselves, you have removed the liberty of choosing certain behaviors simply because they might result in the responsible party - the government - incurring higher costs.

    Aside: I think we need to iron out what a "right" is, because it's pretty clear to me that we have different definitions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruv View Post
    The "Right" to smoke ? Everybody has this right, as an ex smoker I agree there should be a right to agree to self contaminate amongst consenting adults.
    This gets complicated in a society like the UK where healthcare is free at source, so giving non smokers a say in whether they allow free range smoking.
    Does everybody have a right to smoke wherever they will? Haven't you made your pubs smoke-free? I seem to remember that.
    It strikes me odd that you are adamant that people not be free to ride without a helmet because of the medical risk, and just as adamant that they retain the right to choose to take the medical risk of smoking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruv View Post
    In a mature sophisticated society medical care costs should be shared.
    Anyone should have to have a "right" to immediate care when needed. I see that as more of a privilige, hence the lower case "right". A civilised modern democracy would give this privilege to it's citizens as a "right"
    and as pointed out already, this "right" comes at the cost of other rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruv View Post
    The right to choose the school your child attends depends on availability of places.
    This is a housekeeping problem, as long is there is an element for self selection and a way to improve failing schools, only the education is a "Right"
    That's a nice tap dance, but you just came round in a circle. You can choose if there is a choice is available. Of course, if no options are available then no one can choose something else.
    But in the United States, there is no choice in which school you may send your children to, with rare exceptions. Every address is assigned a district. If you want to send your child to a different public school, you have to move house to another district. Parents can't choose to take their child to the next nearest school, even at their own expense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruv View Post
    The sacrosanct "Rights" are listed Here
    Nice list. Does the UK subscribe to it in its entirety? The US does not. And again, we need to nail down just what a right really is.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I had more written, but with delays to do real world stuff, apparently the forum gave up on me. I hit Send & everything disappeared. Thankfully I'd copied this much.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Accountable's Avatar
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    Re: "The more civilized we become, the less individual liberties we get to keep."

    Correct me if I'm wrong, Bruv, but it seems clear to me that you agree that more civilisation results in less individual liberty, and you are quite comfortable with that ... well, until they try to take your smokes.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Bruv's Avatar
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    Re: "The more civilized we become, the less individual liberties we get to keep."

    Quote Originally Posted by Accountable View Post
    The right to protection against repressive government should come from the ballot, and it does. That doesn't negate the prudence of being prepared in case the ballot fails.
    I understand you lot had hanging chads, and needed to invent a word 'gerrymandering' to cover voting irregullarities, how does having the right to bear arms fix that ?
    So then you agree that as you have become more "civilised" by absorbing everyone's responsibility to care for themselves, you have removed the liberty of choosing certain behaviors simply because they might result in the responsible party - the government - incurring higher costs.
    Where did I say that ?
    In your free society you rely on the rich sharing their good fortune to care for the unfortunate........if they have a mind to.
    In my free society, as we all become better off, we collectively care for our less abled, perhaps the thinking behind that is too sophisticated for you ?
    Does everybody have a right to smoke wherever they will? Haven't you made your pubs smoke-free? I seem to remember that.
    It strikes me odd that you are adamant that people not be free to ride without a helmet because of the medical risk, and just as adamant that they retain the right to choose to take the medical risk of smoking.
    Both restrictions are for the benefit of all, everybody covers any costs involved with taxes.
    There are no helmet restriction on private roads or smoking on private grounds.
    The rules only apply to public places, for the public good.
    Insurance might be invalid though
    Nice list. Does the UK subscribe to it in its entirety? The US does not. And again, we need to nail down just what a right really is.
    What amongs all those rights does the land of the free think a freedom too far ?
    I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth

  10. #30
    Senior Member Accountable's Avatar
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    Re: "The more civilized we become, the less individual liberties we get to keep."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruv View Post
    I understand you lot had hanging chads, and needed to invent a word 'gerrymandering' to cover voting irregullarities, how does having the right to bear arms fix that ?
    There was no rebellion. That's no reason to remove the means to rebel. No one tries to use a lack of protests to justify taking away the right to free speech.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruv View Post
    Where did I say that ?
    Right here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruv View Post
    If, as in the UK the medical bill for repairing a broken skull is borne by the general public by way of taxes, a Law stipulates helmets should be worn. If somebody doesn't wear a helmet, medical care is not witheld. Sikhs are exempt by Law from wearing helmets while riding motor bikes. I don't think this qualifies as a "Right" more a responsibility.
    Remember the topic: The more civilized we become, the less individual liberties we get to keep.

    Your society has decided, as an evolution toward a more civilized society, to collectively care for not only your less abled, but for everyone. In other words, your society has taken on the responsibility of medical care that once belonged to each individual. As a result, costs of risky behavior gone wrong, such as injuries from accidents while riding without a helmet, are born collectively, and society has decided that the individual's liberty to take such risks are too costly and cannot be kept.

    You can get upset about it all you want. Rephrase it to be more palatable. It doesn't change the fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruv View Post
    Both restrictions are for the benefit of all, everybody covers any costs involved with taxes.
    This is my point. Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruv View Post
    What amongs all those rights does the land of the free think a freedom too far ?
    I plan to comment on the list, but it will have to be later. Real life calls. I believe it is crystal clear, though, that while we agree that some benefits of society require certain restrictions, we disagree on where that balance should be struck.

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