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Thread: Use Taxes to Control Guns!

  1. #11
    Senior Member Accountable's Avatar
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    Re: Use Taxes to Control Guns!

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    America is obese and dying from it by the hundreds of thousands.
    America is killing it's citizens by the tens of thousands with guns.
    America is killing hundreds of whole families by drunk driving.

    Doesn't all that carnage prove that people, on a massive or even planetary scale, are fundamentally incapable of taking care of themselves?
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    People instinctively know this. That's why we developed governments. Then we rant against them. I've seen the same thing in children. They say they don't want rules, but they do.
    If you want to be treated like a child, then feel free to have yourself declared incompetent and find someone to take care of you. Don't try to presume that everyone is as incompetent and irresponsible as you. Don't try to presume that everyone is as afraid of caring for themselves as you. The vast majority (tens of millions) of Americans are capable of taking care of themselves and do so quite successfully.

    Sorry you don't count yourself among them.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Saint_'s Avatar
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    Re: Use Taxes to Control Guns!

    Quote Originally Posted by Accountable View Post
    Americans are capable of taking care of themselves and do so quite successfully.
    But they don't. You didn't grow the cow you ate for dinner, nor did you grow the feed for the cow. You cannot construct a highway for yourself to drive on, nor are you capable of building a car to drive on it. You didn't build the house you live in, and you can't build a similar house out of modern materials yourself.

    Our civilization is so big and complex that, even though you tell yourself you are capable of taking care of yourself...you are not. That's exactly why we need laws and government. One person, in the wild, with the right knowledge and tools might be able to take care of themselves. Three hundred million, intimately interconnected and interdependent, cannot and you know that. Do I have to stretch your imagination and ask you what would happen if all civic government was instantly disbanded? You know as well as I do it would be chaos.


    It doesn't make you "helpless" or "incompetent" or threaten your manhood, so smooth your ruffled feathers. It just makes you dependent on a larger organization that can coordinate the myriad nuances that make life with millions of your fellow human beings possible.

    Back to topic: Anything that creates discord, chaos, death, or destruction is detrimental to the health of the society. (See: drunk driving) It must and will be outlawed eventually or the society will die. guns fall in that category and I believe we will see them outlawed in our society within this century. That's the kind of thing that happens when a civilization matures.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Accountable's Avatar
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    Re: Use Taxes to Control Guns!

    You jump from obesity to paving your own personal road as if they are synonymous. How in hell .... you string together unrelated crap worse than a politician.

    Drunk driving is outlawed not because of it's detriment to society, but because drunk it endangers the health, safety, and property of people besides the drunk driver. Same with drunk hunting, by the way. Note that being drunk is not outlawed, nor is driving. Cars are not outlawed. Neither is alcohol. Drunk driving is a deed.

    Guns are in no way synonymous with drunk driving. Guns are not detrimental to society. Guns do not endanger the health, safety, or property of anyone. A gun is not a deed.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Saint_'s Avatar
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    Re: Use Taxes to Control Guns!

    Quote Originally Posted by Accountable View Post
    You jump from obesity to paving your own personal road as if they are synonymous. How in hell .... you string together unrelated crap worse than a politician.
    Sorry, I was pointing out that we need gun control because our society is so large. Lots of thing, like highways, are the domain of the government because individuals do not have the ability to do that. The government does other things, like passing laws, to preserve the safety of the individual and society as a whole.

    You make the statement, "Drunk driving is outlawed not because of it's detriment to society, but because drunk it endangers the health, safety, and property of people besides the drunk driver."

    That's exactly what guns do, so they fall in the same category.

    Note that being drunk is not outlawed, nor is driving. Cars are not outlawed. Neither is alcohol.
    Cars are regulated...because they are dangerous. Alcohol is regulated, for the same reason. Guns should also be completely regulated.

    Guns do not endanger the health, safety, or property of anyone.
    Try convincing the parents of twenty dead children that.

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    Premium Member tude dog's Avatar
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    Re: Use Taxes to Control Guns!

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    Cars are regulated...because they are dangerous. Alcohol is regulated, for the same reason. Guns should also be completely regulated.
    Guns in themselves are no more dangerous than cars.

    Cars are regulated for the purpose to taxation, not because they are dangerous. We use cars everyday on public property (roads) intermingled with other cars. Despite best efforts sometimes collide, or just plain run over people. Hence insurance laws, licensing.

    The average person does not use guns everyday (though I would like to), and certainly not in public. Where and when one can use a gun is strictly regulated. Much more so than alcohol or cars.

    It is obvious firearm registration does not increase safety for anybody. It's the first step towards confiscation. At least you're honest enough to admit that is what you want.

    The example of Great Britain is prima face example that gun confiscation actually creates a more dangerous society. Chicago, 500 murders last year, and guns are all but illegal.

    And as I already pointed out, for all the hoopla about semiautomatic rifles (so called assault weapons), the worries are greatly misdirected. Regulate hammers or knives, which are used more often for murder than all rifles combined.



    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    Try convincing the parents of twenty dead children that.
    "You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before." - Rahm Emanuel quotes ...
    Gosh, it would be awful pleasin'
    To reason out the reason
    For things I can't explain

  6. #16
    Senior Member Saint_'s Avatar
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    Re: Use Taxes to Control Guns!

    Quote Originally Posted by tude dog View Post
    Guns in themselves are no more dangerous than cars.
    Which is to say extremely dangerous.

    Cars are regulated for the purpose to taxation, not because they are dangerous.
    Then what is the point of the driver's exam? Why license plates? Why registration?

    We use cars everyday
    Apparently, that's what Americans do with guns as well.

    Despite best efforts sometimes collide, or just plain run over people. Hence insurance laws, licensing.
    Despite our best efforts, sometimes guns shoot people, hence my idea for insurance laws, licensing.
    (and don't try "guns don't kill people, people kill people", because I'll come back with cars don't run over people, people run over people!)

    Where and when one can use a gun is strictly regulated. Much more so than alcohol or cars.
    No. and THAT'S my point. You can buy guns without paperwork, you can't do that with either alcohol or cars. To operate a car, you must be insured because you can kill someone accidentally or on purpose. Guns do not have to be insured even though they can have the same results. Cars are licensed and registered to a specific owner so that they can be traced if stolen, or linked to that person if used to commit a crime. Guns do not have to be.

    It is obvious firearm registration does not increase safety for anybody.
    Why? It works for cars. That is nothing but your opinion and is contrary to evidence.

    It's the first step towards confiscation.
    Paranoia.

    At least you're honest enough to admit that is what you want.
    Oh no, you get me wrong. I don't want to confiscate anyone's guns. I want to make it impossible for anyone get them in the future. Big difference. I'll let time itslef erase those already in existence.

    The example of Great Britain is prima face example that gun confiscation actually creates a more dangerous society.
    58 Murders a Year by Firearms in Britain, 8,775 in US
    By Juan Cole, Informed Comment
    22 July 12


    umber of Murders, United States, 2010: 12,996

    Number of Murders by Firearms, US, 2010: 8,775

    Number of Murders, Britain, 2011*: 638
    (Since Britain's population is 1/5 that of US, this is equivalent to 3,095 US murders)

    Number of Murders by firearms, Britain, 2011*: 58
    (equivalent to 290 US murders)

    Number of Murders by crossbow in Britain, 2011*: 2
    (equivalent to 10 US murders).
    For more on murder by firearms in Britain, see the BBC.

    Regulate hammers or knives, which are used more often for murder than all rifles combined.
    Source please. (Knowing full well that that statement is ridiculous.)





    "You never let a serious crisis go to waste. .
    Well, I finally got you to admit guns are a serious crisis in our country. We are making excellent progress!

  7. #17
    Premium Member tude dog's Avatar
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    Re: Use Taxes to Control Guns!

    Guns in themselves are no more dangerous than cars.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    Which is to say extremely dangerous.
    I am sitting here about 4' from a loaded handgun. My truck is outside parked. Gun and truck are no danger to anybody. They are only a danger when operated carelessly.

    Cars are regulated for the purpose of taxation, not because they are dangerous.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    Then what is the point of the driver's exam?
    OK, I gotta be more clear.
    Drivers exam does not make the car more safe. It is an attempt to insure drivers understand the basic laws etc. of vehicle operation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    Why license plates? Why registration?
    License plate is for easy identification which shows taxes have been paid.

    I don't know about where you live, but in the two states I have lived and registered cars, the fee was based on the appraised value of the vehicle. Zero to do with safety.

    It is the VIN (Vehicle Identification Number) identifies the individual vehicle.

    A VIN is much like the serial number stamped on every gun since 1968. Deface that you can be looking at some serious trouble with the Feds. Destroy the VIN on a car, one may have some splaining to do.

    We use cars everyday
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    Apparently, that's what Americans do with guns as well.
    To be clear, I wrote
    "The average person does not use guns everyday."

    Though I didn't specify, by saying I would like to, thought it was clear I would like to be at the shooting range.

    And you are correct, for a myriad of reasons, guns are used every day. I don't know if it counts as a use, but many of us carry one every where legal.

    Despite best efforts sometimes collide, or just plain run over people. Hence insurance laws, licensing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    Despite our best efforts, sometimes guns shoot people, hence my idea for insurance laws, licensing.
    I would say such regulation is an infringement on our right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    (and don't try "guns don't kill people, people kill people", because I'll come back with cars don't run over people, people run over people!)
    Get no argument from me.

    Where and when one can use a gun is strictly regulated. Much more so than alcohol or cars.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    No. and THAT'S my point. You can buy guns without paperwork, you can't do that with either alcohol or cars.
    No totally true about guns. All guns sold by a FFL (Federal Firearm License), whether in a retail outlet, gun show or anywhere, you must fill out Form 4473.

    This is not required in face to face transaction between average citizens. However firearms crossing state lines between regular folk is another story.

    Maybe where you live, but I don't know of anywhere the law requires paperwork to buy alcohol or cars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    To operate a car, you must be insured because you can kill someone accidentally or on purpose. Guns do not have to be insured even though they can have the same results.
    Same can be said of many items, like ladders, chainsaws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    Cars are licensed and registered to a specific owner so that they can be traced if stolen, or linked to that person if used to commit a crime. Guns do not have to be.
    I guarantee, if any of my firearms end up stolen, I will provide all information to the authorities. If later my stolen gun is used in a crime, I don't see how it helps knowing the serial number of my gun to catch the criminal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    It is obvious firearm registration does not increase safety for anybody.
    Why? It works for cars. That is nothing but your opinion and is contrary to evidence.
    I have yet seen where registration of anything increases safety.

    It's the first step towards confiscation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    Paranoia.
    I dunno about that. Especially since registration has no practical purpose.

    At least you're honest enough to admit that is what you want.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    Oh no, you get me wrong. I don't want to confiscate anyone's guns. I want to make it impossible for anyone get them in the future. Big difference. I'll let time itslef erase those already in existence.
    I wish ya all bad luck on that endenvour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    The example of Great Britain is prima face example that gun confiscation actually creates a more dangerous society.
    58 Murders a Year by Firearms in Britain, 8,775 in US
    By Juan Cole, Informed Comment
    22 July 12


    umber of Murders, United States, 2010: 12,996

    Number of Murders by Firearms, US, 2010: 8,775

    Number of Murders, Britain, 2011*: 638
    (Since Britain's population is 1/5 that of US, this is equivalent to 3,095 US murders)

    Number of Murders by firearms, Britain, 2011*: 58
    (equivalent to 290 US murders)

    Number of Murders by crossbow in Britain, 2011*: 2
    (equivalent to 10 US murders).
    For more on murder by firearms in Britain, see the BBC.
    OK, GB doesn't suffer much of a murder problem as compared to the US.

    Regulate hammers or knives, which are used more often for murder than all rifles combined.
    Source please. (Knowing full well that that statement is ridiculous.)[/quote]

    yr 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011

    Rifles 453 380 351 367 323

    Knives or cutting instruments 1817 1888 1,83 1,732 1,694

    Blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.) 647 603 623 549 496

    FBI

    Overall, when it comes to crime GB is a rotten place to live.

    [url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html]The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.[/quote]

    And of course there is Chicago, gun free(?) city.
    Crime rates for Chicago, IL



    "You never let a serious crisis go to waste."

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    Well, I finally got you to admit guns are a serious crisis in our country. We are making excellent progress!


    You're a funny guy. You just ignore it was in response to your comment about the children murdered in Newtown, Connecticut.
    Gosh, it would be awful pleasin'
    To reason out the reason
    For things I can't explain

  8. #18
    Senior Member Accountable's Avatar
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    Re: Use Taxes to Control Guns!

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    Sorry, I was pointing out that we need gun control because our society is so large. Lots of thing, like highways, are the domain of the government because individuals do not have the ability to do that. The government does other things, like passing laws, to preserve the safety of the individual and society as a whole.

    You make the statement, "Drunk driving is outlawed not because of it's detriment to society, but because drunk it endangers the health, safety, and property of people besides the drunk driver."

    That's exactly what guns do, so they fall in the same category.
    Your repeating a false statement doesn't make it true. I know that politicians and other liars make it seem so, but it's not.



    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    Cars are regulated...because they are dangerous. Alcohol is regulated, for the same reason. Guns should also be completely regulated.
    Guns are regulated as much or more than alcohol. You can do your little semantic dance on your own, trying to convince yourself of this false analogy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    Try convincing the parents of twenty dead children that.
    You can walk through a parking lot full of cars and be perfectly safe. You can walk into a room filled with loaded guns and be just as safe.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Accountable's Avatar
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    Re: Use Taxes to Control Guns!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    No. and THAT'S my point. You can buy guns without paperwork, you can't do that with either alcohol or cars. To operate a car, you must be insured because you can kill someone accidentally or on purpose. Guns do not have to be insured even though they can have the same results. Cars are licensed and registered to a specific owner so that they can be traced if stolen, or linked to that person if used to commit a crime. Guns do not have to be.
    You can't buy alcohol without paperwork?
    At MOST all the paperwork you need for alcohol is an ID card and paper money. Wanna try the paranoid song & dance about buying used guns? Better back it up with describing the paperwork needed to do the equivalent with alcohol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    Why? It works for cars. That is nothing but your opinion and is contrary to evidence.
    In your own words:
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    Source please. (Knowing full well that that statement is ridiculous.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_ View Post
    Oh no, you get me wrong. I don't want to confiscate anyone's guns. I want to make it impossible for anyone get them in the future. Big difference. I'll let time itslef erase those already in existence.
    Same ends. How is your passive-aggressive approach any better? Any different? Any less unconstitutional?

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