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Thread: Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

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    Senior Member Mickiel's Avatar
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    Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

    The more I look at Primordial Man, the less I see them as having a consciousness that was even similar to ours. I think they had physical brains, and highly developed instincts, but I do not view them as being conscious beings. They stayed stagnant far too long; stayed the same literally, with almost little change in over what; 250,000 years and more. Perhaps much more.

    In my view, they never became civilized.

    In example, what are the sure signs of consciousness and civilization? And did they display those? I think not. Here are some signs of Consciousness and civilization;

    Language
    Mathmatics
    Science
    Transportation
    Spelling
    Religion
    Technology
    War
    Education
    communication
    Building
    Agriculture
    And the list just goes on and on, and Primordial man had almost zero of these that developed into a higher stage before Adam came on the scene, and I believe Adam was the first human with an active working consciousness, and soon after him civilization began, and later Egypt really grew in its civilization.

    Too much time elasped for me to accept that neanderthals and cromagnons had consciousness, those who lived before the Ice Age. They basically stayed the same for perhaps millions of years?

    Is it then possible for a whole race of humans to exist, and not be conscious?

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    Senior Member Mickiel's Avatar
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    Re: Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

    How much of our consciousness do we modern day people even use? I think we subconsciously do far more than we realize.

    And I think Primordial humans did everything they did subconsciously.

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    Proudly humble LarsMac's Avatar
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    Re: Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

    Consciousness evolved, as man began solving some of the problems he encountered.

    Figuring out how to manage fire, was a major advance.
    Learning to cook, another.
    Fire gave the early hunter-gatherer some amount of safety.
    And sitting around a campfire has always been something to inspire the imagination.

    Once man had a moment to just sit and think, all sorts of things began to happen.
    “The reality we can put into words is never reality itself.”
    ― Werner Heisenberg
    "The trouble with people isn't that they don't know, but that they know so much that ain't so."
    - Will Rogers
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    Senior Member Mickiel's Avatar
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    Re: Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

    Quote Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
    Consciousness evolved, as man began solving some of the problems he encountered.

    Figuring out how to manage fire, was a major advance.
    Learning to cook, another.
    Fire gave the early hunter-gatherer some amount of safety.
    And sitting around a campfire has always been something to inspire the imagination.

    Once man had a moment to just sit and think, all sorts of things began to happen.


    I think Consciousness most certainly evolves, is probally the one thing about humanity that is still now evolving that I would agree with. I agree firguring how to manage fire was a major advance; I would argue primordial man too way too long to even learn to manage that- a sure sign of lack of a working consciousness. You mentioned " Imagination", which is another sign of consciousness; Primordial man has shown very little of that from what I have studied.

    They were not conscious as we are, no; I would not agree with that. I think they were more like advanced animals, with instincts that led them to do things which I think we mistake for consciousness, as we still do with animals today; thinking they are conscious.

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    Senior Member Mickiel's Avatar
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    Re: Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

    Even today, I don't think we realize just how much we " Unconsciously do things!" Just do things without even using our consciousness, so its no impossible thing to imagine a whole race of humans just not using their consciousness, or needing one for that matter.

    I would say at least, at the very least, half the things we do every day, we do NOT use our consciousness to do them! Like " Driving:", for example; when we drive, how much of what we do, are we unconsciously doing them? I would say 50%, at least. We are holding the steering wheel, steering; and we are using our feet to brake or excelerate; all the while looking at the road, and at the same time not driving too close to the curve, while listening to music, while talking on the phone, while looking in the mirror, while looking at the scenery , while combing our hair, while eating something, while thinking about something totally different in our minds, while watching the street lights, while watching the street signs, while looking at your watch! You are NOT using your consciousness to do much of these things, you are " Using your INSTINCTS!"

    And that is similar to what I mean by primordial man using their instincts, but we think they used their consciousness.

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    Senior Member Mickiel's Avatar
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    Re: Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

    Now of course consciousness is an opinion up for grabs in many sciences, especially where animals are concerned; I personally do not view animals as conscious beings; although some of them have such high toned instincts, it " Mimicks consciousness." So there will be disagreement there. I think what we call " Cave Men" in our ancient history, certainly " Mimicked Consciousness", but I disagree that they had the type of consciousness that we hold. And this is important in discussing this topic; I believe the main reason why Primordial man stayed stagnant for so long, or primitive, is because of their " Lack of consciousness", because consciousness led to and created civilization.

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    Senior Member Singh-Song's Avatar
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    Re: Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
    The more I look at Primordial Man, the less I see them as having a consciousness that was even similar to ours. I think they had physical brains, and highly developed instincts, but I do not view them as being conscious beings. They stayed stagnant far too long; stayed the same literally, with almost little change in over what; 250,000 years and more. Perhaps much more.

    In my view, they never became civilized.

    In example, what are the sure signs of consciousness and civilization? And did they display those? I think not. Here are some signs of Consciousness and civilization;

    Language
    Mathmatics
    Science
    Transportation
    Spelling
    Religion
    Technology
    War
    Education
    communication
    Building
    Agriculture
    And the list just goes on and on, and Primordial man had almost zero of these that developed into a higher stage before Adam came on the scene, and I believe Adam was the first human with an active working consciousness, and soon after him civilization began, and later Egypt really grew in its civilization.

    Too much time elasped for me to accept that neanderthals and cromagnons had consciousness, those who lived before the Ice Age. They basically stayed the same for perhaps millions of years?

    Is it then possible for a whole race of humans to exist, and not be conscious?
    You keep prattling on about 'Adam' in spite of being an adamant agnostic, which I have to say is really annoying; but that aside, lets look at your assertion. You say that neither Neanderthal nor Cro-Magnons count as conscious, sentient beings, and that sentience only began with your Adam and Eve couple after the end of the Ice Age, roughly 10,000 years ago. Are you a fanatical Jewish religious extremist, here to incite racial hatred? You do realise that what you are in fact arguing is that for all of those who can't claim direct descent from Adam- which would amount to around 99% of the world's population, given the global distribution of humanity by the time you're proposing- human rights shouldn't apply, because we're not actually sentient beings. Well, news flash; it doesn't matter which race you hail from (even White European, which basically amounts to being of mixed descent between the two races which you refuse accept as having consciousness, Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons). All of us are just branches of a single human race- even Neanderthals, with the genetic difference between them and any modern present-day human only amounting to a third of that required by the American Kennel Club to register a new breed of dog. And all of us all possess active working consciousnesses, not just a single miniscule minority group.

    And as for your list of the supposed 'hallmarks of civilisation', all can be torn to shreds with ease. As a form of fighting in which the individual humans on the front line are expected to give up their free will entirely and become automatons of those ordering them into battle, 'War' is certainly not a sign of higher consciousness by any stretch of the imagination. 'Communication'- isn't this a more primitive form of language, something which can be observed in any lifeform higher than an amoeba? Even plants communicate with each other using chemical signals, for goodness' sake. Are they conscious organisms as well? Spelling- are you having a laugh? You can't even spell mathematics yourself. Does this mean that you don't possess an active working consciousness?* Language- how can you provide any proof that these earlier forms of humanity didn't have language? Brain analyses have already definitively proved that they possessed the capacity, the language centres of their brains were all there. Technology- what counts as technology? Stone Tools? Spears? Nets? Clothing? Because these are all things which mankind possessed well before the timeframe you're talking about. Agriculture- you do know we have proof that people have been growing crops for around 20,000 years, right? Education- even cavemen had skills, in their use of tools, foraging and hunting, and all of these skills had to be taught, passed down from generation to generation. Building- for a civilisation which never advances to the stage of industrialisation, how many buildings do you think are going to still be standing after hundreds of thousands of years? Even with our own advanced civilisation, do you think there would even be the slightest trace of any of our structures after a hundred millennia or so, except for the caves formed from our transport tunnels and military bunkers? You can't even prove that they didn't have any of the things on your list, let alone prove that they were mentally inferior to the extent of being incapable of doing so.

    *- and BTW, before you nitpick my own spelling, I'm writing in UK English, not American.

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    Senior Member Mickiel's Avatar
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    Re: Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

    [QUOTE=Singh-Song;1445861]You keep prattling on about 'Adam' in spite of being an adamant agnostic, which I have to say is really annoying;/QUOTE]



    I believe in God with all my heart, I am not Agnostic; It is unfortunate that you are annoyed; I hold no interest in responding to people who are very annoyed at me.

    Why should I? I am not annoyed at you; I find that very disrespectful.

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    Senior Member FourPart's Avatar
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    Re: Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

    [QUOTE=Mickiel;1445873]
    Quote Originally Posted by Singh-Song View Post
    You keep prattling on about 'Adam' in spite of being an adamant agnostic, which I have to say is really annoying;/QUOTE]



    I believe in God with all my heart, I am not Agnostic; It is unfortunate that you are annoyed; I hold no interest in responding to people who are very annoyed at me.

    Why should I? I am not annoyed at you; I find that very disrespectful.
    Can someone be an adamant Agnostic? The whole point of being Agnostic, as opposed to being Atheist is to not be sure either way, although technically I see it as a sliding scale. I, for instance, have no belief in a God whatsoever, so would consider myself Atheist. However, because I follow the rules of Science I would have to say that if faced with hard evidence (and a story book / folklore does not count as evidence) I would have to accept it & believe in the evidence, so by rights there is no such thing as an Atheist. I suppose I wold class myself as 99.99% Agnostic. Conversely, though, Theists have no shortage of evidence to the contrary, yet deny its validity or even its existence.

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    Senior Member FourPart's Avatar
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    Re: Was Primordial man Conscious as we are conscious?

    The question, I suppose, is how you define conciousness. For instance, does a chimp have conciousness? Are they self aware? Gorillas most certainly are. Koko, for instance demonstrated this beyond a shadow of a doubt, being fully able to communicate in sign language ( https://youtu.be/G4QQ8Mfjb_g ). Chimps have also been observed in the wild to have a moral code, with justice implemented by the others in the group for breaches of this code (so much for getting morals from the Bible). Furthermore, if you check YouTube you will see an experiment where one Chimp gets a peanut for performing a simple task, but when he sees another chimp being given a grape for the exact same task got really put out abaout it. Males have also been seen using treats to buy sexual favours from females. This seems to demonstrate a great deal of self awareness, as well as a base understanding of currency. As this can be seen in other Primates, I see no reason to believe it wouldn't have been evident in primitive man.

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