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Thread: Are You Fearful of the Caliphate Movement?

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    Senior Member High Threshold's Avatar
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    Re: Are You Fearful of the Caliphate Movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silvio Dante View Post
    With freedoms come responsibilities. The responsibility to protect our freedoms from those who would wish to dismantle them one by one.

    Such people are those who bring terror to Syria and Iraq. Devottees of radical Sunni creed that hates you and seeks to destroy your liberties ....
    The rule in connecting the dots is that you start from number 1 and follow ALL OF THE DOTS, in sequential order, without lifting your pen from the surface, untill you connect up the final dot. Your pen seems to have run amok, both on and above the surface.

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    Re: Are You Fearful of the Caliphate Movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by High Threshold View Post
    The rule in connecting the dots is that you start from number 1 and follow ALL OF THE DOTS, in sequential order, without lifting your pen from the surface, untill you connect up the final dot. Your pen seems to have run amok, both on and above the surface.
    How very Liberal of you. All the while Radical Sunni Wahabism is plotting to destroy all you hold dearly...

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    Re: Are You Fearful of the Caliphate Movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silvio Dante View Post
    How very Liberal of you. All the while Radical Sunni Wahabism is plotting to destroy all you hold dearly...
    It's up to you if you want to keep chasing after that mechanical rabbit running down the rail, but in case you haven't been paying attention, the group claiming to form an Islamic state or new caliphate, is disputing the leadership of Al Qaeda and Ayman al Zawahiri in particular.

    What this tells me and anyone who even thinks about it for a few seconds is that more "Islamic" the Islamic state is, the less support it has among Muslims, even among Sunni Muslims! After all, if there is a split between the hardcore fundamentalists who are trying to form the Caliphate, what serious level of long term success will it have?

    So, the U.S. and every other actor with their hand on the wheel in Iraq knows this as well, BUT they also know that this temporary **** storm - ISIS sweeping through the desert in northern and western Iraq provides them the rhetorical excuse to spend more money and interfere in Iraqi affairs to an even greater degree....right now, we have Obama stating openly that the Maliki Government needs to be replaced. I have no idea or even give a crap whether replacing Maliki is a good/or a bad thing; but what I do know, is that Obama and the U.S. Government are operating by the principle: "never let a good crisis go to waste."
    It's your choice if you want chase this latest rabbit down the rail; most of us...those of us who are either not conservative thinkers, or thought we were at one time and abandoned most conservative logic, are going to sit on the sidelines and hope the latest foreign venture blows up in their face!

    When it comes to the "Caliphate," read some history of the Arab World through the rise and the development of Islam, and you will discover that when ISIS-type thinking caliphs were in charge, the Caliphate started fracturing apart; while the more tolerant and open-minded caliphs were the only ones capable of maintaining relative calm and prosperity. The last Caliphate - run by the Ottoman Turks, was by far, a less religious government than the modern day governments that exist today; mainly because the Turks were trying to maintain an empire....a corrupt empire, and keeping the peace, and maintaining the flow of trade and commerce outweighed any concerns over religion. They didn't care what the religious beliefs were of their territories, as long as they payed their taxes and didn't support rebellions and uprisings. Notice that non-Muslim religious communities and even Muslim splinter sects like the Ahmadis, Ismaelis and Druze, existed and lived for generations in the same territories until the fall of the Caliphate and the rise of nationalisms, fundamentalism and Arab-supremacy groups took over and were forming governments.

    The conservative rhetoric about Islam spreading like the plague and taking us over, is no different than the "Domino Theory" that was used to justify sending half a million American troops to occupy Vietnam a half century ago. Cynic that I am, I think the Islamophobia of the Neocon movement, was a cynical ploy to find a foreign threat to keep Americans paranoid after the fall of the Soviet Union removed the main argument for the oversized military and abusive security and surveillance apparatus.

    Since I've gone this far, maybe it's time to discuss the differences in thinking between typical liberal thinkers and conservatives....because the same frontlines are drawn up between liberals and conservatives on a whole host of issues.

    I think the difference between liberals and conservatives on this issue, is that liberals are more inclined to try to think through and evaluate their beliefs, while conservatives enshrine their core beliefs with religious and/or nationalistic justifications. A quick example of this phenomena would be a study reported on in Psychology Today last year that followed a long-running trend in psychological and sociological research in recent years about whether there are hardwired differences between conservatives and liberals in their thinking and how they make choices.

    The particular study that caught my eye was one that showed an inverse relationship between liberals and conservatives in how likely they are to change their thinking on an issue: in brief, the higher the education level (their assuming this indicates intelligence) of a liberal thinker, the easier they are to be persuaded by new evidence and new arguments; whereas the conservatives move in the exact opposite direction! So, the higher the education level of a conservative, the more likely they are to raise objections to the new evidence.

    I would argue that we see this all the time on issues like fundamentalist creationism, global warming AND real or imagined foreign threats! This would be the only means I can think of for why, back when almost everyone accepted the conventional wisdom coming out of the Bush Administration after 9-11, the liberals started heading for the exits first, when Bush, Cheney, and their pack of Neocon mouthpieces in the Government and media, started using Al Qaeda as an argument for an Iraq Invasion! After a couple of years, when every liberal or moderate realized the Invasion was a sham and a disastrous policy, the conservatives never abandoned their agreement that the invasion was a good thing...even after the Bush Administration provided another four different reasons why they had to go into Iraq. The rest of us decided if they were going to lie their way to war with a false or unsupportable claim of "weapons of mass destruction," they would lie about everything else! And it's to their shame that the Obama Administration "decided to move on," and did not allow investigations or the legal process to apply...since Bush, Cheney and associates committed a number of war crimes - first being going to war under false pretenses.

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    Senior Member Saint_'s Avatar
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    Re: Are You Fearful of the Caliphate Movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silvio Dante View Post
    How very Liberal of you. All the while Radical Sunni Wahabism is plotting to destroy all you hold dearly...
    Let them plot away. I live in a country with the most powerful military in Earth's history. I'm going to go out for ice cream....

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    Senior Member FourPart's Avatar
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    Re: Are You Fearful of the Caliphate Movement?

    The most ironic thing of all is that the Jihadists preach of America as being The Great Satan, whilst making full use of all the technology sourced, where else, but from America. Talk about being hypocritical.

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    Re: Are You Fearful of the Caliphate Movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by FourPart View Post
    The most ironic thing of all is that the Jihadists preach of America as being The Great Satan, whilst making full use of all the technology sourced, where else, but from America. Talk about being hypocritical.
    Doesn't that describe Christian fundamentalism also? They also embrace technology, while teaching their adherents to avoid learning about science. To me, this is the worst combination! Imagine a religion that had the courage to change with acquired knowledge, while demanding that people take the long view on new inventions and innovations, rather than immediately embrace them and spread them throughout. Here's an example of what wariness of new technologies might have prevented - 88% of world’s oceans covered by plastic junk

    My number one complaint with Christian fundamentalist logic, is that they used to push back against materialism and acquisition of wealth, and even harbour some suspicions about progress. But, what it has turned into is even more pro-tech than any Muslim groups you can find, and has turned the traditional Christian social gospel message upside down by adopting Prosperity Gospel rhetoric which deems great wealth as a sign of God's blessings, and poverty to be a sign of rejection by God.

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    Senior Member FourPart's Avatar
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    Re: Are You Fearful of the Caliphate Movement?

    I couldn't agree more, and what is worse is the hoards of wealth owned by the Church, despite the amount of world poverty & starvation. So much for Jesus chucking the Money Lenders out of the temple.

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    Re: Are You Fearful of the Caliphate Movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by FourPart View Post
    I couldn't agree more, and what is worse is the hoards of wealth owned by the Church, despite the amount of world poverty & starvation. So much for Jesus chucking the Money Lenders out of the temple.
    Agreed! The problem we hear about with Muslim extremism is in large part caused by the wealthy, hedonistic Saudis and similar ruling classes in the oil-rich states, who start getting nervous about their eternal prospects late in life, and start buying their way into heaven, by bestowing large sums on wahabbi clerics to build mosques, madrassahs and finance their version of Islam, which has taken over much of the Sunni Muslim world. This was the pattern in Medieval Europe through to more modern times, until churches flipped their message.

    The Church became the hoarders of wealth through the same system of blackmail applied to shake down the wealthy nobles. So, it didn't make a lot of difference in practice, as there were still great disparities in wealth, and those with money had ways to game the system...even to buy their way into heaven.

    But, at least years ago, there was an expectation that the wealthy had to be a little more reserved about their money and lifestyles. When the American nouveau riche started flaunting their wealth through public extravagance over 100 years ago, that was considered something obscene in Europe, and even in Canada. Until Conrad Black (our Donald Trump) came along, most of the wealthy business and banking class in Canada maintained very low public profiles. I think that a more reserved wealth class is at least better than having these clowns like Koch's, the Vegas casino owner (I forget his name), and the many Wall Street and dot come billionaires thinking their 'John Galt's' - superior to the rest of us, and entitle to tell us how we should be ruled by them and their money.

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    Senior Member AnneBoleyn's Avatar
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    Re: Are You Fearful of the Caliphate Movement?

    Quote Originally Posted by FourPart View Post
    I couldn't agree more, and what is worse is the hoards of wealth owned by the Church, despite the amount of world poverty & starvation. So much for Jesus chucking the Money Lenders out of the temple.
    Jesus did not throw out the Money Lenders and many others doing business in the Temple because he hated wealth. He had wealthy backers, i.e. Lazarus, etc.

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    Re: Are You Fearful of the Caliphate Movement?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnneBoleyn View Post
    Jesus did not throw out the Money Lenders and many others doing business in the Temple because he hated wealth. He had wealthy backers, i.e. Lazarus, etc.
    Well then; why did he throw them out of the Temple?

    I noticed, when I did a quick scan around the usual religious online sources, that the Cleansing is an event that really bothers modern-day pro-capitalist fundamentalist Christian leaders; so they try to do a lot of equivocating and inserting their own ideas, to diminish the message behind the Cleansing...which the Gospel accounts are in agreement that what defiled the Temple was not that that Roman coins were being exchanged for Jewish coins...this was essential, as the Roman coin was stamped with the image of the Roman god-man (the Emperor), and would defile the Temple if it (a graven image) was brought inside. But, what was offensive, was that the moneychangers were profiting from the transactions...and profiting greatly. As well, it's noted in some of the Gospel accounts that the system provided those with more money the opportunity to make greater sacrifices and appear publicly to be more pious, than the poor...who would likely feel ashamed and dejected because of their inability to make such great sacrifices.

    In earlier passages in Mark, and Luke, and I believe John also, Jesus goes on a rant in parables like The Widow's Mite - which are intended to demonstrate that the poor widow's meager sacrifice is of more value than the extravagant sacrifices of the wealthy scribes and Sadducees, and others who surrounded the Temple. Likewise, Jesus is offended by the discrepancies in what great wealth provides them to show off and portray themselves of greater piety than the average Judean...who would only be able to afford to sacrifice one or two doves.

    About Jesus having wealthy friends: the Bible says a lot of different things and contradicts itself, but notice by the time we get to the descriptions of the early Church in Acts, we find an end time community that is extremely socialistic. So, socialistic that everyone is supposed to contribute all of their money and wealth (including selling their land) to the Church community for everyone's benefit and further the cause of evangelizing in the last days. So, when a wealthy couple - Ananias and Sapphira join...but withhold a small amount of their earnings from selling their land, they are both struck dead by the Holy Spirit...according to Acts ch. 5. These communities may have been more extreme than earlier verses in Old and New Testament about wealth and those who amass great wealth, but the general message throughout is that there is a simple contradiction between being a Christian/ or even an Old Testament Israelite, and being concerned about money and material gain.

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