Make these ads go away.
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 26

Thread: The Problem with Canonizing Peoples Words.

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    219
    Local Date
    10-14-2019
    Local Time
    09:24 AM

    The Problem with Canonizing Peoples Words.

    When Jesus was here on the earth he allowed his words to be challenged and I highly doubt we would be talking about him today if he did not.

    To often people don't allow their beliefs to continually be challenged and they end up ceasing to learn and grow.

    Most cults forbid people from challenging the words of their leaders and it is only through fear that they maintain their followers allegiance. But if a person's beliefs prevent them from accepting others based upon what they think, then not only do they live wrong, but they act wrong by doing so and it is a persons actions that we judge as good or bad and which makes a person guilty or innocent of doing wrong.

    People, learn to love and do no evil no matter what the cost: or else you are the problem not the solution.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    667
    Local Date
    10-14-2019
    Local Time
    09:24 AM

    Re: The Problem with Canonizing Peoples Words.

    Quote Originally Posted by sheep View Post
    To[o] often people don't allow their beliefs to continually be challenged and they end up ceasing to learn and grow.
    sheep, it sounds to me as if you are referring to yourself here.

    In previous threads I have referred you to two excellent, extensive, and completely non-denominational sources of Bible research and redaction:

    1. The "Biblical Literature" section of the Encyclopaedia Britannica, about 100 very large pages in very small type.

    2. The Anchor Bible Commentary from Yale University.

    There are many other excellent sources, but these will at least get you started. They have both sold MILLIONS of copies.

    If you continue to base your rhetoric on your claim that all of these experts are wrong and you are right, then I suggest that you write and publish your own commentary and see 1. how many publishers are interested and 2. If published, how many copies you are able to sell.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    219
    Local Date
    10-14-2019
    Local Time
    09:24 AM

    Re: The Problem with Canonizing Peoples Words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Aspam View Post
    sheep, it sounds to me as if you are referring to yourself here.

    In previous threads I have referred you to two excellent, extensive, and completely non-denominational sources of Bible research and redaction:

    1. The "Biblical Literature" section of the Encyclopaedia Britannica, about 100 very large pages in very small type.

    2. The Anchor Bible Commentary from Yale University.

    There are many other excellent sources, but these will at least get you started. They have both sold MILLIONS of copies.

    If you continue to base your rhetoric on your claim that all of these experts are wrong and you are right, then I suggest that you write and publish your own commentary and see 1. how many publishers are interested and 2. If published, how many copies you are able to sell.
    Selling millions of copies of something doesn't make a position right. As well, holding to a position that few people hold to doesn't make you wrong.

    I don't have the luxury of dialogue with books, but if you are willing to argue a point they are making, I am willing to discuss it. But stating that a book says something and trying to solidify the argument on the bases of it having sold millions of copies, is like saying McDonald's sells better food than anyone else and it has over 100 billion burgers sold to prove it. One sells food the others intellectual content, so using that logic maybe we should all just eat at McDonald's. Maybe all that is better is the taste and the content of both might be very harmful to you.

    P.S. you stated that one of the books above (if not both), that you mentioned, claimed that Genesis 1 and 2 contradicted each other and while you may believe that, the Hebrew does not actually bare that out and while I didn't want to discuss that with you on a different thread, I am willing to do so here: so make your argument and let's see if it is true.

    I will say that the English translation appears to offer a contradiction as it is written, but the Hebrew does not support the English translation at all, as the words "and the" are not at all supported from the Hebrew texts and so while the way the verses are written in English in chapter 2 appear as a contradiction to chapter 1's account, the err was in translation, not in the manuscripts themselves.

    P.S.S. All the experts allow for their writings to be challenged, or they wouldn't be considered experts, and that is how knowledge increases. The problem isn't normally with the experts, but with the sheep that don't allow their thinking to be challenged.

  4. #4
    Senior Member FourPart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Southampton
    Posts
    6,264
    Local Date
    10-14-2019
    Local Time
    04:24 PM

    Re: The Problem with Canonizing Peoples Words.

    Quote Originally Posted by sheep View Post
    Selling millions of copies of something doesn't make a position right. As well, holding to a position that few people hold to doesn't make you wrong.
    This is very true. I understand the Bible is the World's Best Seller (under the category of Fiction, no doubt).

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    667
    Local Date
    10-14-2019
    Local Time
    09:24 AM

    Re: The Problem with Canonizing Peoples Words.

    Quote Originally Posted by sheep View Post
    Selling millions of copies of something doesn't make a position right. As well, holding to a position that few people hold to doesn't make you wrong.
    Selling millions of copies is a pretty good indication.

    But poster FourPart also makes an excellent point. Why can the experts be mistaken but the Bible not be so? The Bible is filled that things that are obviously unfactual, and other matters that are contradictory from one book to another.

    Regarding Genesis 1 and 2, have you even read them? In ANY language? It's hardly a matter of transposing a couple of words as you suggest.

    In Gen 1, the universe and everything in it is created day by day, from the basic (light) to the more complicated (man, male and female together, no divine organ tinkering involved).

    In Gen 2, Man is created first of all, in a world of nothing more than soil and rock, then God furnishes the earth with vegetation and flowing water, then with animals, and finally, from one of the man's body parts, a suitable companion and means of procreation for mankind.

    (By the way, there are actually fundamentalist Christians - I know one personally - who really believe that male humans have one less rib than females. Never mind counting, it's in the Bible so it must be true!)

    Of course, both creation accounts are plagiarized from separate and much older pagan myths (which are still accessible in more or less their original form), so why should the two accounts be expected to be in agreement?

    sheep, there's an old saying that if you point your finger at someone, there are three more fingers pointing back at yourself. Based on your claims, you seem the perfect example of that - well, a GOOD example, nobody's perfect.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    219
    Local Date
    10-14-2019
    Local Time
    09:24 AM

    Re: The Problem with Canonizing Peoples Words.

    All the bible says is that God created the man and that he placed man in the garden he planted in Eden, but that doesnt tell you if the garden was planted before or after he made man, just that God made man and the garden. You're making an assumption that the garden was made after man: but that is not at all what the text declares.

    Here let me put this another way. If I say I drove a taxi and I drove a school bus, which did I drive first? The truth is you don't know and you would be making an assumption if you guessed. You are doing the exact same thing with the text in chapter 2. Actually you have the clear chronological order in chapter 1 and so again I will state that there is no contradiction in the 2 chapters, it is just that you have made an assumption that has caused you to claim a contradiction exists where one does not.

  7. #7
    Senior Member FourPart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Southampton
    Posts
    6,264
    Local Date
    10-14-2019
    Local Time
    04:24 PM

    Re: The Problem with Canonizing Peoples Words.

    I consider the whole Garden of Eden thing to be a simple metaphor for a pair of kids going through Puberty. As prepubescents they would have had nothing to want for & happy to run around naked - just as most kids are. Then, as they get older, their hormones start to kick in & they start asking awkward questions about their bodies (eating of the Fruit from the Tree of Knowledge), at which point they start to get embarassed about their nakedness.

    I reckon the chances are that any parent with teenage kids will be able to identify with this. Nothing to do with 'God' whatsoever.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    667
    Local Date
    10-14-2019
    Local Time
    09:24 AM

    Re: The Problem with Canonizing Peoples Words.

    Quote Originally Posted by sheep View Post
    All the bible says is that God created the man and that he placed man in the garden he planted in Eden, but that doesnt tell you if the garden was planted before or after he made man, just that God made man and the garden.
    Utter nonsense. It's possible that, if your Bible really says that, then you are relying on a "cooked" version of Scripture such as the JW Bible or something similar.

    Here is what it says, this is from the Anchor, translated by E. A. Speiser, but I'm sure that nearly all authentic translations will agree:

    Gen 2:7 "God Yahweh formed man from clods in the soil and blew into his nostrils the breath of life. Thus man became a living being. 2:8 God Yahweh planted a garden in Eden, in the East, and placed there the man whom he HAD formed." (My emphasis.)

    The order is clear, first the man, then the garden. Of course, Genesis 1 says just the opposite, that humans were created last of all, male and female together, do you want me to quote that too?

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    219
    Local Date
    10-14-2019
    Local Time
    09:24 AM

    Re: The Problem with Canonizing Peoples Words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Aspam View Post
    Utter nonsense. It's possible that, if your Bible really says that, then you are relying on a "cooked" version of Scripture such as the JW Bible or something similar.

    Here is what it says, this is from the Anchor, translated by E. A. Speiser, but I'm sure that nearly all authentic translations will agree:

    Gen 2:7 "God Yahweh formed man from clods in the soil and blew into his nostrils the breath of life. Thus man became a living being. 2:8 God Yahweh planted a garden in Eden, in the East, and placed there the man whom he HAD formed." (My emphasis.)

    The order is clear, first the man, then the garden. Of course, Genesis 1 says just the opposite, that humans were created last of all, male and female together, do you want me to quote that too?
    You clearly are missing the point here. The order is not actually given you are clearly assuming that the statement is in the order of the creating but that is not stated. All that is stated is that God made the man and that God made the garden. You are clearly assuming that the garden was made after the man but it didn't say that. What it does say is that god made the garden and put man in the garden but it doesn't tell you that the garden was not made before the man was or after he was created: you are making that assumption based on the layout of the text.

    Let's look at this another way, let's say I stated I made a toy man and I made a toy garden and I placed the toy man in the toy garden that I made. Does that mean I made the toy man before the toy garden? No, all you know is that I made both and you are assuming the order I made them in based on the order of the text, but it is clearly you who is making the assumption: as I never stated the actual order I made the toy garden and man in.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    667
    Local Date
    10-14-2019
    Local Time
    09:24 AM

    Re: The Problem with Canonizing Peoples Words.

    Register to remove this ad.
    Quote Originally Posted by sheep View Post
    1. You clearly are missing the point here.

    2. The order is not actually given you are clearly assuming that the statement is in the order of the creating but that is not stated.
    1. One of us is.

    2. Yes, it is. Did you even study the English language in grade school? We have a past (created garden) and a past perfect (HAD created man). The translator makes that - man before garden - clear because it reflects the intent of the original language. There is no assuming involved.

    Here is the same text from the Good News Bible: Gen 2:7 Then the LORD God took some soil from the ground and formed a man out of it; he breathed life-giving breath into his nostrils and the man began to live. 2:8 Then [note the two THEN's - in order - M.A.] the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the East, and there he put the man he HAD FORMED [My emphasis].

    Of course, no such thing ever occurred, humanity developed gradually over millions of years, so arguing about the fables of Genesis is pretty much a waste of time.

    The point is, the translators, unless they suffer from an overriding sectarian agenda, are dedicated to making the translation reflect the intent of the original to the greatest degree possible.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts