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Thread: UK comedy government at it again

  1. #11
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    Re: UK comedy government at it again

    Quote Originally Posted by FourPart View Post
    Quite frankly, I don't believe for one minute that the Russians had anything to do with the Skripal business. Putin was already on a sure thing to win his vote. He didn't need the Nationalist vote by flag waving a relatively unknown traitor with nothing more to offer anyone.

    The facts of the case keep falling apart.
    1. Within days they had precisely identified the toxin as being one made by the Russians.
    2. The line then changed to one of a type made by the Russians.
    3. The line then changed to one of a type being developed by the Russians (although not necessarily in production).
    4. Putin has denied it (Why? What could we do about it?) & has asked for samples so that they can run their own investigations. This request has been denied.
    5. 5 miles up the road is Porton Down - the base where the UK make their own Nerve Agents.
    6. The timing is just too convenient - weeks before what looks to be an embarassing defeat in local elections for the Tories. A bit of Flag Waving never goes amiss.
    7. The BBC were shown up to be Photoshopping a picture of Jeremy Corbyn to make him look like a Russian stooge. The BBC even had the gall to deny it had been Photoshopped, yet if you view the 2 images together, it is clear it has been.
    8. Days beforehand a Tory MP was made to admit that he lied about Corbyn having given Official Secrets to a Czech Spy - and had to pay a sizeable figure to a charity of Corbyn's choice as a settlement.

    All of these are known facts. As far as I am concerned, it looks more like an inside job. After all, when it comes to killing people, the Russians are far more efficient. They keep to methods that work - like a bullet to the head, or a bomb. The whole nerve agent thing is just too bizarrely dramatic & James Bond-esque - as if it was staged to fit the populist fantasy of what it's supposedly like to live & die as a Spy.

    Then there's the expulsion of 23 diplomats - immediately, just as expected, met with the expulsion of 23 UK diplomats. It's so farcical it's straight from "Yes Prime Minister".
    That ignores that the Europeans, especially France and Germany, actually ARE taking action about this. I don't think they'd fall in with a UK gov't plot and they'd have to be convinced. Also, it's not the first time. Remember Litvinenko? Poisoned. Finger pointed at Russia. Denied. Several other cases now being looked at again - 14 I think. 14! That's a lot when you take it in isolation. So by your argument it's not just the government, it's the judicial system that's in on this plot even though the judicial system doesn't blindly support the gov't in this country. Yet, at least. As the various legal challenges to brexit have shown. Remember how the brexit press called the judiciary traitors for not supporting the gov't on brexit and now you accuse them of plotting with the government to deceive the whole country? On an issue that gains us nothing? All it does is distract the Press a bit from brexit!

    Russia has pushed it a bit too far on this it seems. I don't think they expected that the Europeans would back the UK position - I didn't expect them to back it this strongly. That they have done so even though we are brexiting is an indication of how seriously they take this issue. I leave the US out - under Trump they are totally unreliable in relation to Russia. edit: Just seen they've expelled 60 diplomats. So it seems they do take this seriously. 47 more expelled across Europe (not just EU) and 4 from Canada

    Your first three points make something out of nothing.

    4) Standard Russian tactic: Plausible deniability (Cold War origin really, I suppose. US does it too). Unless it is beyond doubt proven they deny. Witness the Dutch airliner their forces shot down in the Ukraine. They've done it time and again since WW2 at least because it is often very hard to prove unless the accuser reveals information that indicates where the proof came from and THAT likely WILL put agents in danger and we do have these agents as the current poisoning shows. However it seems that the excuse is wearing a bit thin with other nations than the UK.

    5) Porton Down is 5 miles away. Impossible for the nerve agent to escape and appear only 5 miles away without any trace between - dead and poisoned people, animals etc so you are saying the closeness to Porton Down means it is deliberate action by the gov't or their agents. Rubbish. Porton Down could be in NI or Scotland or Australia and it wouldn't make any difference if the gov't wanted to poison someone.

    6) Gov't poisons people to distract from local election results. Read that again and tell me you are serious. The gov't would cause a major incident with the world's biggest nuclear power to cover up potentially bad local election results which haven't happened yet? Baaad timing since it needed to happen at the same time as the local election results came out or at least close to them if it was to be effective as a cover up. If you ARE serious, why did you vote to give the gov't more power? LOTS more power if they get away with the Henry VIII powers abuse that has been noted by parliament but not acted against, at least not yet.

    7) BBC photoshopping Corbyn (or not) has what relevance to Putin poisoning exchanged agents? Are you saying the BBC are in on this plot to cover up the gov't local election results with the government and the judiciary? And you think the EU is worse than this? Must do since you voted for this and against the EU. Wow.

    8) Tory lying about Corbyn - must be a government plot to implicate Russia to cover up the local election results. Just wow.

    None of your points have any relevance whatever.
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  2. #12
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    Re: UK comedy government at it again

    Quote Originally Posted by Clodhopper View Post
    Thanks. That's very much what I hoped was the case but honestly I'm losing track of who said what when and does it still apply - especially the bit about the conditions required to trigger a 2nd Indyref. I am considering the possibility of moving to the Scottish Borders (as I think I've mentioned before). I can make some of the numbers work but at present I can't see clearly how to support myself adequately. I'm a landlord here who owns one property and rents a couple of rooms. I can't do that in the Borders, I think, and I'm not cut out to be a multi-property landlord.

    Anyway, I'm looking at possibilities. It's both brexit and vibration motivated. And I suppose the idea has a whiff of adventure about it, and family legend has it we originate in the Borders. I'm a leeetle suspicious of that one since it may just be romantic Victorian legend, but it is true that all the men in the family have Angus somewhere in the name. Much cheaper to live up there too - the reduction in cost goes some way to paying for a vehicle but not all the way. Is solar power a realistic option in the s of Scotland?

    Against a move is that all my friends and support mechanisms are here and even under the worst brexit scenarios the leaked gov't figures suggest London will suffer least (-2%) because we are already a multicultural global city. And that "we" is revealing. I am a Londoner now. In addition, if I go to Scotland, possible Scottish ancestors won't save me from racist abuse for being English from some. That may be worsened if many others have the same idea as me and there is a substantial English minority taking local jobs. I appreciate Scotland has a declining population issue and is looking for people but the reality of a large number of English suddenly turning up might well feel like colonisation. I can cope with it (I have in the past) but it isn't a plus factor.

    Do I really feel so strongly about being deprived of my EU identity and horrified by what will happen to a brexiting UK that effective emigration is the answer? I know other Remainer friends are looking at this issue. One is out in NZ at present...

    Also been looking in Dumfries and Galloway but man some of that looks remote. And bleak. But beautiful. Oddly enough I have some mountain skills (rusty as heck) and rural interests (ditto) but reliably getting enough cash... at present that's an issue. Not far off, though. And though I'm sort of coping with the vibration by gosh I'm sick of it.

    I haven't decided yet. But I'll keep working on the plan.
    You will meet some anti english sentiment we have our idiots like everyone else it depends where you go. Less so in the borders and for a time the one and only tory MP was from dumfries and galloway. I lived in london you occasionally get anti snyone not from london sentiment depending where you go. I suggest you check internet availablity and mobile phone connectivity if you are considering the borders.

    When it comes to racism and recent accusations against corbyn how come the same charge is not levelled at UKIP et al? especially when you look at some of the comments made about east europeans.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...tern-europeans

    https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fe...112722799.html

  3. #13
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    Re: UK comedy government at it again

    chuckle. A gay English chef acquaintance of mine moved to Scotland and opened a restaurant with his partner (they'd run one down here for ages and fancied a change). He says the only difference is that "English" has been added to "gay bastard" when he gets abuse. They are very happy up there.
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  4. #14
    Senior Member FourPart's Avatar
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    Re: UK comedy government at it again

    Quote Originally Posted by Clodhopper View Post
    5) Porton Down is 5 miles away. Impossible for the nerve agent to escape and appear only 5 miles away without any trace between - dead and poisoned people, animals etc so you are saying the closeness to Porton Down means it is deliberate action by the gov't or their agents. Rubbish. Porton Down could be in NI or Scotland or Australia and it wouldn't make any difference if the gov't wanted to poison someone.
    The point is not anything about accidental leakage, but that it would be far more accessible to someone closer to home than the Russians.


    6) Gov't poisons people to distract from local election results. Read that again and tell me you are serious. The gov't would cause a major incident with the world's biggest nuclear power to cover up potentially bad local election results which haven't happened yet? Baaad timing since it needed to happen at the same time as the local election results came out or at least close to them if it was to be effective as a cover up. If you ARE serious, why did you vote to give the gov't more power? LOTS more power if they get away with the Henry VIII powers abuse that has been noted by parliament but not acted against, at least not yet.
    Polls have shown that her flag waving is having exactly the desired result.
    As for voting to give the Government more power. In what way have I voted in any such way? As for powers being abused, that is the matter in hand in the first place. It is not the powers that are necessarily wrong, but the way in which they are abused.

    7) BBC photoshopping Corbyn (or not) has what relevance to Putin poisoning exchanged agents? Are you saying the BBC are in on this plot to cover up the gov't local election results with the government and the judiciary? And you think the EU is worse than this? Must do since you voted for this and against the EU. Wow.
    Just why is it that you & your like seem to equate Brexit with Tory. You may recall that the official stance of both Tory AND Labour was to Remain. They were clearly both out of touch with the will of the Public. If Party Campaigning had been more representative I believe the outcome would have been a much higher majority to Leave.
    As for the relevance of Photoshopping - it has every relevance. May's Flag Waving campaign has been set in no uncertain trems to focus on mud slinging at Jeremy, and she gets her Stool Pigeon BBC Propaganda Machine to take care of it that they portray him as being Pro-Russian.

    8) Tory lying about Corbyn - must be a government plot to implicate Russia to cover up the local election results. Just wow.
    Other way round - using Russia to implicate Corbyn.

    Tory lies regarding Skripal start to come to light.

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archi...mpression=true

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    Re: UK comedy government at it again

    If you can believe the stuff you apparently believe there is little point talking about it. You go on thinking Putin is a nice, put upon person who has done nothing but got this worldwide reaction. Wups.

    I think brexit is a far right project because the people running it are far right. They are supported by the far right. Billionaires see opportunity. Goldsmith (billionaire MP) told me so. The advice given is to move your money out of the UK for a time (not given) then move back and buy buy buy. Redwood and Rees-Mogg both told their investors that and it's been in the public domain.

    Not for the ordinary bloke. But when major backers of the project say do this to the people who pay them then take it seriously. They think brexit will trash the place. To them it is worth it to turn the place into an offshore tax haven where the ultra rich like Putin can store their money anonymously through dodgy accounting and shell companies. In other words they want to allow dictators to launder their money through us as long as they can take their cut. To do that they need freedom from EU law.

    The EU was never the problem. It was a major part of the solution. You've given us to the far right.

    Why do I keep saying that? Because the people running brexit are from the far right of the tory party. Johnson, Davis, Fox are far right tories that were kept away from power by the likes of John Major. Now you've let them loose.

    There may be left wing and moderate brexit backers. Their views are irrelevant because they have no power and the people running their project are far right tories. Far right tories with the power to rephrase EU law coming into English Common Law, to suit the far right tory agenda. Let me remind you these are people previous tory governments have never let near power.

    Please stop ignoring the fascist and openly racist element of brexit. It is substantial enough to cause a 16% spike in race hate crime after the vote.

    Discussion is pointless. You think brexit will be great. I don't.

    You've taken away our chance of being part of the greatest project this continent has ever seen to create a future based on peace and prosperity, the rule of law and the freedom of the individual that has ever existed and you have no idea what you have done. This may even be the bad nudge at a bad time that destroys that project with appalling consequences. The last two times similar things happened world wars were the result. Both in the last 100 years.

    You go on about brexit as some principle. The best I can say about most brexiters is they were protest voting with no care for the consequences. No brexit principles I can see, just blaming the EU for every problem. Wrongly.

    Well. We're all going to pay for your delusions.

    Oh and less of brexit being the will of the British public. It is the will of just over half the British public that voted for a campaign that is looking increasingly financially dodgy, with Russian interference pro-brexit fronted by blatant liars. Proud to be of the 48% not fooled.

    The US sees us as in a weak position after brexit and is slavering. We're not going to get anything less than a Trump America first deal for at least a decade. And a change of administration. Do you think Fox will do less than swallow and swallow and swallow for brexit and his career and to hell with our standards and regulations which save YOU from abuse because they will be sold like fishing rights to get the deal that makes his career look good and brexit is all that matters.

    We are not in a good negotiating position for brexit or post brexit deals.

    Just remember: brexit and the consequences of brexit are YOUR fault. You've fallen for the lies, swallowed the bait, been well and truly fooled. And we will all pay for it.

    Oh, and tory brexit leader proves incompetent shock horror. This is the guy who accidentally got a UK citizen jailed in Iran by opening his gob and being wrong. Who said we can have our cake and eat it. Nothing Johnson says has any bearing on anything but Johnson's career. This is a guy brexit voters put in power. One of their leaders, without their vote would not be in power. Like Davis and Fox. The brexit voters' responsibility.

    It's like Nazi voters in the 1920's. Protest vote for some, a vote for political calm for others. They had no idea what a vote for Hitler really meant. That's brexiters now. Fortunately our Hitler was Farage, and whatever his vices and virtues, being a real leader isn't among them.

    Sovereignty: Every deal is a ceding of sovereignty. You agree to limit your freedom of action for some perceived gain (which is a ceding of their sovereignty). We had a great deal with the EU. Now we are getting a worse economic deal (it has to be) and ceding sovereignty to US law or Indian law, or the Chinese government, which is claimed is going to make us all rich. Far right project...

    And if you are wondering why I am so passionate about this I say again it's the EU being the most hopeful prospect for a peaceful and prosperous future based on the rule of law and the freedom of the individual that has ever existed in the whole bloodsoaked history of Europe and you've taken us out of it. And you don't have a clue what you have done.
    Last edited by Clodhopper; 03-29-2018 at 04:44 PM. Reason: Er, editing, then editing the edits. Then finding something else...
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  6. #16
    Senior Member FourPart's Avatar
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    Re: UK comedy government at it again

    Quote Originally Posted by Clodhopper View Post
    It's like Nazi voters in the 1920's. Protest vote for some, a vote for political calm for others. They had no idea what a vote for Hitler really meant. That's brexiters now. Fortunately our Hitler was Farage, and whatever his vices and virtues, being a real leader isn't among them.
    Except Hitler never won the election. Hindenburg did. Hitler's Nazis were the minority, with only 36% of the vote - the Remainers, if you will. Due to the increasing pressure of the minority group Hindenburg gave concessions to Hitler by making him Chancellor. When Hindenburg died Hitler acceded him, did away with the office of President & declared a new one - Fuhrer. There certainly is a parallel here. The Minority wanting control over the Majority, and to Hell with Democracy.

  7. #17
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    Re: UK comedy government at it again

    https://www.electoralcommission.org....nt-information

    Total Electorate: 46,500,001

    Turnout: 72.2%

    Rejected Ballots: 25,359

    The turnout for the referendum was 72%. Those voting to leave were 51% of the turnout in other words the vote to leave is around 36% of the electorate. Or put another way 74% of the electorate do not want brexit. Only the most demented brexiteer can argue there is a clear mandate. Over the next three years the incrtease in those able to vote in the 18-30 bracket is likely to swing it even more agaimst leaving. Bear in mind camneron did not allow expats to vote and did noy allow the vote at age 16 as was suggested and as was allowed in the scottish referendum.

    Our flawed electoral system means the least unpopular candidate with the highest % of votes win the seat, typically we have MP's representing constituencies for whom 2/3rds of the electorate voted against. We have a parliamentary democracy so far we have seen the tories deliberately try and sideline parliament and give more power to ministers. If it was a bad idea before the referendum is still a bad idea after it.- so much for us taking back control. They are led by a prime minister who argued against leaving, if it was a bad idea befire it's still a bad idea afterwards if she had any integrity she would not be prime minister.

    We live in a democracy that means we have the right to change our minds and anyone whom says otherwise is an idiot.

    May does not even have the common sense to include the deviolved governments and instead seems hell bent on undoing the devolution agreement. If this goes through it is likely you will see the break up of the united kingdom. Have your brexit paradise like most scots I am well aware of all we have gained from the eu and the befits membership brings us.

    Fascist - have a look at those laws the right wing want to undo - goodbye employment rights, goodbye NHS (that's a socialist policy in case you didn't know). Don't tell remainers to suck it up we're not having it and while we still live in a democracy with free speech we will not be silenced. Churchill by the way was an early advicate of a european union.

  8. #18
    Senior Member FourPart's Avatar
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    Re: UK comedy government at it again

    Using non-existant votes as an argument for having lost a vote was never a valid one. You are assuming that every vote that wasn't cast would have been a vote to Remain. It would make more sense to assume that the proportionate vote would have been the same as those that were cast, which would mean that the total votes cast would have exactly the same proportionate outcome.

    Furthermore, this was not a FPTP vote. It was a simple Binary option. In or Out. In a multi partisan situation the argument of a 'least popular candidate' might carry some weight, but not in this sort of situation. The voting conditions for this Referendum were the same throughout the UK. The rules for the Scottish Independance Referendum were different as it was a totally different issue. The matter of the Scottish Referendum was that if they left the UK then it would definitely mean leaving the EU whereas, because the EU Referendum had not yet been held, the option to Remain meant a possibility or Remaining in the EU. IE Definitely Out or Maybe Out.
    On the assumption that the Scottish Referendum had gone to Independance, then the Scottish Vote would not have been part of the EU Referendum, which would have made the majority of a Leave Vote for the rest of the UK even higher, due to the Scottish vote being so high to Remain.

    One thing about a Binary Vote is that the results are plain & simple. There is no dispute about votes being split between other candidates. Votes that are not cast do not come into the equation whatsoever. As with any election, those who choose not to vote have no right to complain at the outcome.

  9. #19
    Senior Member FourPart's Avatar
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    Re: UK comedy government at it again

    Quote Originally Posted by gmc View Post
    Fascist - have a look at those laws the right wing want to undo - goodbye employment rights, goodbye NHS (that's a socialist policy in case you didn't know). Don't tell remainers to suck it up we're not having it and while we still live in a democracy with free speech we will not be silenced. Churchill by the way was an early advicate of a european union.
    If you are referring to selling off the NHS to be a Socialist policy, I presume you are referring to the infamous Tory Bliar, a treachourous War Criminal, who used, and still uses, the Labour Banner in order to campaign for Tory policies. At the GE he told Labour voters to vote Tory in order to bring about a 2nd Referendum. Now, with the Local Elections he is doing the same thing & advising the Tories on what to do in order to stop a Labour victory. I would hardly describe this slimeball as a Socialist.

    As for getting rid of Employment Rights - this has steadily been happening under a Tory Government. They have pretty much destroyed the strength of the Unions - and what has the EU done to stop any of that? Who was the first country to have a Trade Union? Britain was. I am a direct descendant of James Brine, one of the Tolpuddle Martyrs, so I have a particular family tie to Unionism. Before the EU the Trade Unions were thriving.

    Churchill was in no way an advocate of an EU. He was totally opposed to it.
    As Prime Minister in 1953, he was explicit that Britain should not be part of the arrangement. He told the Commons: “Where do we stand? We are not members of the European Defence Community, nor do we intend to be merged in a Federal European system. We feel we have a special relation to both. This can be expressed by prepositions, by the preposition ‘with’ but not ‘of’ – we are with them, but not of them. We have our own Commonwealth and Empire.”
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/histo...n-Union-Brexit

  10. #20
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    Re: UK comedy government at it again

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    I agree that Churchill, while favouring the nascent EU, was not in favour of us joining it in 1953 because as you quote, we had our own Empire and still have a Commonwealth, although it is not an economic union as it was when we had the Imperial Preference System. He certainly supported the nascent EU for Europe.

    Now that we don't have an Empire and the Commonwealth is not an economic benefit his reasons as given no longer have relevance. I wonder if he'd still have been against joining in those circumstances? He offered a political Union with France when they were conquered by the Nazis, after all, so he wasn't against the idea in principle.

    Tell me something positive about brexit. Give me something to look forward to, to hope for. So far brexiters have offered NOTHING. Bad deals, lies, incompetence, bad faith and personal ambition. That's brexit.

    How does Tony Blair not being real Labour (in your opinion) justify you voting for a racist fascist brexit and somehow not being at all racist or fascist because you say you aren't even though what you actually DID says you ARE. You voted for and support the brexit offered by this government - Dimwit Davis, Liar Johnson and ****wit Fox's far right brexit. You voted for them and their policies but claim you don't support their policies and didn't vote for them.

    You're a total ****ed up mess.

    chuckle. Has a go at me for being gullible taking ONS figures seriously - and then quotes the Express, a paper for elderly tories who think Thatcher was ok until she went soft.
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