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Thread: Where is God and Christ?

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    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: Where is God and Christ?

    For clarification, where you mention "this God" as a counter to "the belief that all things created itself from nothing , which is also a belief", are you suggesting that - let me pick an identification, "The God of Creation" - is identical with "this God" of the present which we've been talking about?

    I can easily see that you have a belief in "this God" we're discussing, and you may well have a belief in The God of Creation, but I'm interested in why you equate them as the same God. You seem immediately to ascribe a minimum lifetime of 14 billion years to "this God". Would it bother you if The God of Creation has long since died and that "this God" isn't that old, or is One Eternal God a necessity in your understanding?
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Mickiel's Avatar
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    Re: Where is God and Christ?

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    For clarification, where you mention "this God" as a counter to "the belief that all things created itself from nothing , which is also a belief", are you suggesting that - let me pick an identification, "The God of Creation" - is identical with "this God" of the present which we've been talking about?

    I can easily see that you have a belief in "this God" we're discussing, and you may well have a belief in The God of Creation, but I'm interested in why you equate them as the same God. You seem immediately to ascribe a minimum lifetime of 14 billion years to "this God". Would it bother you if The God of Creation has long since died and that "this God" isn't that old, or is One Eternal God a necessity in your understanding?

    Yes they are identical.

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    Re: Where is God and Christ?

    That certainly answers a couple of questions about divine attributes then. We have a tick for Omnipotent and Eternal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
    Now what do we mean by things " Spiritual"? One of the faults of humanity is thinking we know everything, a grave error in our consciousness.
    John Milton mentioned how much is still to be discovered. Humanity, he says, is
    Deep vers'd in books, and shallow in himself,
    Crude or intoxicate, collecting toys,
    And trifles for choice matters, worth a sponge,
    As children gathering pebbles on the shore.
    There was a chap went to Oxford as Professor of Poetry, whose unpublished notes were printed 93 years after Isaac Newton died. The professor's notes claim he had been told that shortly before death, Newton said "I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me". You can see where this paraphrase originated, at least. Milton did the actual imagery. The professor, who was also an ordained minister in the Church of England, had been abroad until three years after Newton died, so he certainly wasn't a witness.

    I would contend that the sentence attributed to Newton conveys a psychological truth, and that attributing it to the towering intellect of Newton carries it sufficiently powerfully down the ages that Milton's original authorship has long been forgotten.

    I have my doubts whether the professor of poetry was actually given the words by an accurate reporter. My strong suspicion is that he invented the words in order to convey the psychological truth and pinned them to Newton's deathbed to enhance the effect. I think it probable that he deliberately lied, knowing he lied and thinking lying in this circumstance was acceptable. But whether he was told it or not, I think the claim that the words were uttered by Newton shortly before his death is very unlikely.

    Anyway no, I don't think humanity in general, Newton in popular culture or even me in particular, think we know everything. But I do agree that this word "spirit" is a complete unknown and I'm glad you raised it for discussion here. It appears to refer to an aware consciousness that can exist indefinitely with no physical, material support (such as a body or a brain). Is that a fair description?

    And yet this same spirit, this aware consciousness, can inhabit a body and be responsible for that body's thoughts and actions. No human body can be alive and not have a spirit. Do please say if I'm wrong in any aspect of your thinking, I'd much rather have a mistake corrected then go off at a tangent.

    If I'm right in that description, I have observations you could pick up and discuss.

    I do not understand how a spirit can enter a physical body at (or before) birth and become its persona for life. The entire recorded history of Christianity insists that this happens and relies on it as a foundation, as far as I can see, but the word is meaningless to me so far because everything I have been told about neurology persuades me that the brain does all of these things, that it can be seen in scanners to do all of these things, and that if something else is in there doing all of the exact same things in tandem it seems a dreadfully wasteful design.

    Your description of what a spirit is, in the context of a living human, might provide a breakthrough in this conversation.
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    England's troubles will increase until the bishops open Joanna Southcott's box.
    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

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    Senior Member Mickiel's Avatar
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    Re: Where is God and Christ?

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    For clarification, where you mention "this God" as a counter to "the belief that all things created itself from nothing , which is also a belief", are you suggesting that - let me pick an identification, "The God of Creation" - is identical with "this God" of the present which we've been talking about?

    I can easily see that you have a belief in "this God" we're discussing, and you may well have a belief in The God of Creation, but I'm interested in why you equate them as the same God. You seem immediately to ascribe oa minimum lifetime of 14 billion years to "this God". Would it bother you if The God of Creation has long since died and that "this God" isn't that old, or is One Eternal God a necessity in your understanding?

    I personally believe in one God that I view as an eternal being. And Christ is his son. I do not ascribe a minimum lifetime to them , one of the attributes of being eternal, at times means there was no birth, no beginning , which is incredible. And these are what I suggest is hard to believe , its otherworldly to be eternal , its not in our dictionary . It is beyond our comprehension. How is someone eternal and everlasting? I can't comprehend someone alive that was never born and will never die. This is part of the mystery of God. I truly would like to know him. I think it would be quite something.


    There are no necessities in my understanding of God because it changes and turns and moves . As I learn it grows in its own dynamic , being sharpened and constantly corrected. Like a Father talking to his son . I believe in one God , or we can say one Father. Now is Christ now a God? I am unsure he could be, he certainly qualifies. So we can suggest there is one Father and one son. Jesus actually created all things under the Fathers direction , so he certainly can do the things that God does , so in my understanding I am leaning towards Jesus being a God. I am not sure, but it figures.

    Now God and Christ hold the power to become invisible , yet another reason we do not know where they are.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Mickiel's Avatar
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    Re: Where is God and Christ?

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    That certainly answers a couple of questions about divine attributes then. We have a tick for Omnipotent and Eternal.



    John Milton mentioned how much is still to be discovered. Humanity, he says, is
    Deep vers'd in books, and shallow in himself,
    Crude or intoxicate, collecting toys,
    And trifles for choice matters, worth a sponge,
    As children gathering pebbles on the shore.
    There was a chap went to Oxford as Professor of Poetry, whose unpublished notes were printed 93 years after Isaac Newton died. The professor's notes claim he had been told that shortly before death, Newton said "I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me". You can see where this paraphrase originated, at least. Milton did the actual imagery. The professor, who was also an ordained minister in the Church of England, had been abroad until three years after Newton died, so he certainly wasn't a witness.

    I would contend that the sentence attributed to Newton conveys a psychological truth, and that attributing it to the towering intellect of Newton carries it sufficiently powerfully down the ages that Milton's original authorship has long been forgotten.

    I have my doubts whether the professor of poetry was actually given the words by an accurate reporter. My strong suspicion is that he invented the words in order to convey the psychological truth and pinned them to Newton's deathbed to enhance the effect. I think it probable that he deliberately lied, knowing he lied and thinking lying in this circumstance was acceptable. But whether he was told it or not, I think the claim that the words were uttered by Newton shortly before his death is very unlikely.

    Anyway no, I don't think humanity in general, Newton in popular culture or even me in particular, think we know everything. But I do agree that this word "spirit" is a complete unknown and I'm glad you raised it for discussion here. It appears to refer to an aware consciousness that can exist indefinitely with no physical, material support (such as a body or a brain). Is that a fair description?

    And yet this same spirit, this aware consciousness, can inhabit a body and be responsible for that body's thoughts and actions. No human body can be alive and not have a spirit. Do please say if I'm wrong in any aspect of your thinking, I'd much rather have a mistake corrected then go off at a tangent.

    If I'm right in that description, I have observations you could pick up and discuss.

    I do not understand how a spirit can enter a physical body at (or before) birth and become its persona for life. The entire recorded history of Christianity insists that this happens and relies on it as a foundation, as far as I can see, but the word is meaningless to me so far because everything I have been told about neurology persuades me that the brain does all of these things, that it can be seen in scanners to do all of these things, and that if something else is in there doing all of the exact same things in tandem it seems a dreadfully wasteful design.

    Your description of what a spirit is, in the context of a living human, might provide a breakthrough in this conversation.


    I mostly agree with your description of spirit , I can see your thoughts on it. You know I think our consciousness is a spirit. I kind of differ a bit in my thoughts , I do not see the brain as a spirit. I think there is nothing in the human body that we can point to and say this physical part of the body is consciousness. I cannot explain it but consciousness is just there, really having no location in the body. We tend to think that consciousness is inside our heads , because we look with our eyes and peer outward. There is absolutely nothing inside our heads except physical bone and tissue. No doctor can touch anything in your head and call it a spirit.

    And yes, we just carry our spirit, or our consciousness, around in our body. The brain supports our spirit consciousness. We need both. The consciousness, or the spirit, is like having a "Ghost" inside of you. I think its uniquely yours and a gift of life from God. Its a thinking conscious ghost. It cannot be seen or touched , but its there and its you. Just as much a part of you as your hands are. It fits your body like a glove. This is yet another reason I believe in creation , I cannot see something like consciousness evolving from nothing that exist.

  6. #16
    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: Where is God and Christ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
    I mostly agree with your description of spirit , I can see your thoughts on it. You know I think our consciousness is a spirit. I kind of differ a bit in my thoughts , I do not see the brain as a spirit. I think there is nothing in the human body that we can point to and say this physical part of the body is consciousness. I cannot explain it but consciousness is just there, really having no location in the body. We tend to think that consciousness is inside our heads , because we look with our eyes and peer outward. There is absolutely nothing inside our heads except physical bone and tissue. No doctor can touch anything in your head and call it a spirit.

    And yes, we just carry our spirit, or our consciousness, around in our body. The brain supports our spirit consciousness. We need both. The consciousness, or the spirit, is like having a "Ghost" inside of you. I think its uniquely yours and a gift of life from God. Its a thinking conscious ghost. It cannot be seen or touched , but its there and its you. Just as much a part of you as your hands are. It fits your body like a glove. This is yet another reason I believe in creation , I cannot see something like consciousness evolving from nothing that exist.

    That's very helpful.

    Do any of these have consciousness, or the spirit, like having a "Ghost" inside, which is unique and a gift of life from God?

    A cow,

    rat

    snake

    spider

    parasitic intestinal tapeworm?

    If there's a variation in the answer, where does the division happen?

    I'm still being serious, I'm not trying to be funny, I think it's an essential question.
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    England's troubles will increase until the bishops open Joanna Southcott's box.
    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

  7. #17
    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: Where is God and Christ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
    I think there is nothing in the human body that we can point to and say this physical part of the body is consciousness. I cannot explain it but consciousness is just there, really having no location in the body. We tend to think that consciousness is inside our heads , because we look with our eyes and peer outward. There is absolutely nothing inside our heads except physical bone and tissue.
    And yet if you put a human into a CAT scanner and let her listen to spoken language, or music, and to speak, and to do mental arithmetic or think of sunsets or poetry or pray or meditate, different regions of the brain light up consistently from one person to another. Does this not suggest that those regions of the brain are associated with those aspects of thought?

    And how do these thought processes differ from consciousness?
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    England's troubles will increase until the bishops open Joanna Southcott's box.
    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

  8. #18
    Senior Member Mickiel's Avatar
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    Re: Where is God and Christ?

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    That's very helpful.

    Do any of these have consciousness, or the spirit, like having a "Ghost" inside, which is unique and a gift of life from God?

    A cow,

    rat

    snake

    spider

    parasitic intestinal tapeworm?

    If there's a variation in the answer, where does the division happen?

    I'm still being serious, I'm not trying to be funny, I think it's an essential question.


    In my personal view, none of those things are conscious beings. I don't see consciousness in animals , I think they are alive and some can think , but they are not conscious as humans are, there is a difference. I know many view animals as conscious beings, I do not. But I tell you, some animals sure seem like they are; I am unconvinced.

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    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: Where is God and Christ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
    In my personal view, none of those things are conscious beings. I don't see consciousness in animals , I think they are alive and some can think , but they are not conscious as humans are, there is a difference. I know many view animals as conscious beings, I do not. But I tell you, some animals sure seem like they are; I am unconvinced.
    That's fine, that's helpful.

    So we have the cow, for instance. You would agree it is alive, it can eat, sit, turn left or right. It can chase someone across a field to defend its calf. Are these functions you would attribute in humans to conscious choice? Human and cow have evolved from a common ancestor which could also do all of these things.

    Does this mean that most of the actions we humans take are not, in fact, conscious? That they're automatic and we have no control over them? Are they not part of our personality?

    Or do we need a modified view of what is conscious and what isn't, to provide something exclusive to humans. I'm happy to explore whichever path you would like to take here.

    A further problem is that brain damage from a stroke at a given location can prevent a person from speaking, or understanding speech, or remembering names for example. If those are all brain functions as opposed to an aspect of spirit, what are we narrowing spirit down to? Has spirit anything at all to do with recollection, when recollection can be affected by brain damage? I take it you don't regard a nail in the head as capable of causing damage to a spirit.
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    England's troubles will increase until the bishops open Joanna Southcott's box.
    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

  10. #20
    Senior Member Mickiel's Avatar
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    Re: Where is God and Christ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    And yet if you put a human into a CAT scanner and let her listen to spoken language, or music, and to speak, and to do mental arithmetic or think of sunsets or poetry or pray or meditate, different regions of the brain light up consistently from one person to another. Does this not suggest that those regions of the brain are associated with those aspects of thought?

    And how do these thought processes differ from consciousness?



    Well its close , there is obvious connection between the brain and consciousness. No doubt. But just as there is obvious difference between matter and spirit , in my view there is difference between spirit and flesh. The brain is a piece of meat, consciousness is far, far more; there is no comparison. At least I see none.

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