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Thread: Where is God and Christ?

  1. #31
    Senior Member Mickiel's Avatar
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    Re: Where is God and Christ?

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    So can a spirit be damaged just by a brain injury? A spirit presumably can use language but a brain injury can remove comprehension of language. We know the brain is damaged, we can watch the damage on the CAT scanner. Is the spirit incapable of using language as well? Could it use language beforehand?

    I'm exploring this concept of dual control centers performing the same function.

    Perhaps spirits can't use language?

    I don't think a spirit can be damaged , it is really us; who we are, our lives recorded and stored. When we die God takes that recording and stores it. But when the brain is damaged the consciousness is affected , hurt but not destroyed. You can beat a human body beyond description, but as long as the person is still alive, the spirit is still there, the consciousness still present. And when they die, the spirit never dies, it goes to God, wherever he is.Such is my belief.

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    Senior Member Mickiel's Avatar
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    Re: Where is God and Christ?

    In my thoughts , from all theories I have examined , I accept most that humans are really spiritual beings, just now having to live in a physical world. In physical temporary bodies. There is far more to life than we know; this stuff now is not our intended future; no. It can't be, its not enough. Oh one can accept its all to it, because that is as far as their consciousness can go. I have stretched a bit further.

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    Senior Member Mickiel's Avatar
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    Re: Where is God and Christ?

    Where God is , its a mystery, as God is a mystery. Believing God is real or not , hurts no one. We can live and die , our view of God has not hurt humanity ; humans have hurt humans , and often have used religion as an excuse to ravage and hurt each other. This is something God has obviously allowed , he knew we would do this. And he knows what he is going to do about it. None of us are doomed to some hurtful future far ahead, the future belongs to God, and we all will live in it. I don't know what God is going to get out of human suffering , but he wanted it first, before we shift into his reality. Only then will we know how we will benefit from all this we only now understand. I often wonder just what is on his mind ; and I think the complete salvation of all humanity is one thing he wants.

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    Senior Member Mickiel's Avatar
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    Re: Where is God and Christ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
    Where God is , its a mystery, as God is a mystery. Believing God is real or not , hurts no one. We can live and die , our view of God has not hurt humanity ; humans have hurt humans , and often have used religion as an excuse to ravage and hurt each other. This is something God has obviously allowed , he knew we would do this. And he knows what he is going to do about it. None of us are doomed to some hurtful future far ahead, the future belongs to God, and we all will live in it. I don't know what God is going to get out of human suffering , but he wanted it first, before we shift into his reality. Only then will we know how we will benefit from all this we only now understand. I often wonder just what is on his mind ; and I think the complete salvation of all humanity is one thing he wants.

    Some of what we humans know about "A God", comes from our imagination , history or word of mouth. We reference books and our cultures to rely on such unusual subjects. If I may use my own reasonings and say how I think on the matter, not knowing if a God is listening to me or not. I don't see how something that exist can come into existence without something else that exist, brings it into existence. But using that reasoning , just how is it that God exist? Just as much a mystery as where is God?

    Why can't all things just be simple?


    How spoiled would humanity be if all things were simple? If you think about it life seems like a puzzle. A mathematical puzzle, an emotional puzzle , a scientific puzzle. Some people actually get so sick of it , they give up on life itself. Just tired of the puzzle, what is right or wrong, who is right or wrong. It takes a certain strength just to keep going, often not even knowing where your going.

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    Senior Member Mickiel's Avatar
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    Re: Where is God and Christ?

    One of the more depressing things about God and Christ is not " Knowing"; not knowing where they are , if they even exist, why they keep hidden; not knowing what they think about you , why they have done things like they have. God knows that we don't know; he knows. So none of this is our fault , which is why I believe in Universalism; or all humans being saved from this unknown dynamic. You don't place billions of humans into this barrel of living without God , then start judging them based on confusion. God would not do that. But many just don't know he would not do that. They base their beliefs on not knowing God. And that only adds to the confusion.

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    Re: Where is God and Christ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
    You don't place billions of humans into this barrel of living without God , then start judging them based on confusion. God would not do that. But many just don't know he would not do that.
    I’ll warn you before I start, this is likely to be a longish post. It’s in direct reply to the thread and I think it’s entirely relevant, I hope people have the perseverance to get to the end. A forum is the wrong place for this sort of thing, a forum is meant more for conversation than analysis, but it’s where I’ve reached in considering the points you’ve made here.

    The one thing I’ve discovered so far in life is that nothing is true.

    There is no truth, there is experience. What people do with experience is make up stories, listen to other people’s stories, choose between stories. That’s when they’re not just doing what they’ve been told to do, of course. Most people for most of history have done what they’ve been told to do, it’s a survival trait.

    What some people have done on and off since pre-history is science, which is story-telling. It consists of suggesting a rule and seeing whether the rule can make accurate repeatable predictions of future events. Most often, those future events are observations. The rules which become trusted in that regard are then used to help think up new, untested rules, and so the cycle continues. Science is a very powerful technique. It made electrical circuitry. It made mathematics. It put satellites in orbit.

    What some other people have done on and off since pre-history is religion, which is story-telling. It consists of suggesting a rule and seeing whether the rule can make a coherent interpretation of past events. Most often, those past events are passed down by the shaman, the story-teller, or later by the scribes who know how to get a coherent story out of a bag-load of campfire tales especially if they tweak the tales and make a few key figures carry several names. Jacob and Israel spring to mind. Various Abrams. Or making a key figure carry a generic name like Adam. Can religion make accurate repeatable predictions of future events? Of course not, it never set out to. Give a scribe a king list and a scribe can know exactly what God thought of each king by what fate befell him. Stands to reason, after all. Give a scribe enough fast-induced hallucinations and he’ll write the entire Book of Revelations but it’s not an accurate prediction of a future event. Give a religion a Book of Revelation and the religion’s adherents will treat it as an accurate prediction of a future event and milk it for millennia.

    The story telling is far broader than these categories, obviously. You can have a rule that slavery is a benefit to society, that prison deters people from breaking laws, that punishing lawbreakers is a good principle. You can have a rule that words from the past may no longer be spoken even when discussing the past – the word-censorship on ForumGarden won’t even let me put up an example here to make my point. You can have a rule that a person is inherently more valuable than an animal, or that wealth-creators should benefit financially from their activities. We’ve seen examples of societies where being a non-productive burden leads to sanatoria where the patients are made to die, where being uncooperative leads to sanatoria where the patients are lobotomised, where being a domesticated farm animal leads to a slaughterhouse and family mealtimes. They’re all rules made up by elements of a society, they’re all untestable, they’re all possible only because they are what happens. Should the world operate for the greatest good of the greatest number? Maybe there need to be safeguards to protect the individual. Look, we just invented Human Rights.

    This thread described part of the story you’ve adopted. This post has described an equivalent part of mine. There is not a lot of overlap but I hope you agree I’m still on topic.
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    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
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  7. #37
    Senior Member Mickiel's Avatar
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    Re: Where is God and Christ?

    I think your on topic and I agree with much of what you said. People have lived throughout history just repeating what they have learned and religion is just one of the things they have learned. We live our lives according to our dreams. We create stories and pass them down to each generation. Each generation takes it as truth. One day we challenged this and began to scientifically apply things we learned and the scientific Revolution began. I question the scientific truth as well as the religious truth, both are full of crap in certain areas. Science has discovered more relevant truth than religion has in my view. That is my opinion. The scientific Revolution punched some serious holes in religion. I don't like religion that well myself , it is full of deceptions. A lot of the stories we passed down were just invented by human consciousness. And I know that , so it requires some serious thought to begin to believe in God in a serious manner. The truth is when it comes to God, it seems like most people believe that story.

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    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: Where is God and Christ?

    That’s very productive, thank you. We’re certainly in a position to explore the source and meaning of some of our vocabulary, that would be a helpful step. We could indulge in a little story telling and see what religious common ground we can invent, the more the merrier.

    If we can focus in on one evening just outside a cave complex part-way up a hill overlooking a Dolomite valley. I’m looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_religion for serendipitous inspiration at the moment if you’d like a quick glance. The date is 9th February 27439 BC, Gregorian style, and it’s an hour after sunset. The children are safely asleep at the back of the cave and the corpse of Gudri is being washed before they put it in the burial cave with the ancestors.

    I think the question “where is Gudri now” is admissible. Gudri had a personality, the bit of Gudri which is obviously no longer present. They’re about to take Gudri to join his parents who died decades earlier. The words “Gudri has gone to rejoin those who went before” will be natural to the story-teller whenever Gudri is brought to mind over the next few years. The direction that takes the story is fairly evident. If you’re looking for a duality between body and soul, that’s a good starting place. Gudri is with the ancestors at the happy hunting ground, feasting, safe, waiting for his children to join him. It may even be that only the good children will get to see him again so do what you’re told and don’t break those taboos we told you about.

    The undying soul is an entirely human construct, as made-up a part of religious story-telling as anything else and it ends up, by the time of Torquemada, as a powerful aspect of societal control. We will burn you at the stake of you step outside these boundaries, it’s the only way we can save your eternal soul from your heretical belief and behavior.

    But “Where is Gudri now?”. The story-teller knows that too. As the sun rises unerringly in the East and sets in the West so life’s journey begins at the sunrise and goes eventually into the sunset. Gudri’s taken his grave goods and walked into the Summerland. The Queen of the Summerland’s guard has accepted him for entry, has let him pass, and then it was all smiles and how the tribe is getting on and let’s go and give thanks to the Queen and do a bit of eternal worship before the next hunt.

    The gods of the tribe need a history, that’s why they have such a good story-teller. The first phase of stories might mention Gaia the mother and Birgit the bright god, she’s the one who helps the mightiest of the hunters and beats up the best game so long as she’s included in the feasts, a portion set aside for her, libations poured to the ground in her honor. Eventually the story-teller includes Odin and the inevitable rebirth of everything at Ragnarök. The concept of eternal life goes back a long way but it is just that, a concept, a story-teller’s construct. It’s no better or worse than any other story, it’s no less true than everything else, nothing known to anyone has ever been true, it has always, everywhere, been an interpretation of experience. I suggest that a religion is a gathering together of stories into a more or less coherent body and that the design is tweaked to add power to the religion. Odin was once powerful. Zeus was powerful. Christianity and Islam are still moving the ball upfield. God only knows what the Hindus are doing with their pantheon these days but there’s a lot of milk still being poured at the feet of Ganesha.
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

  9. #39
    Senior Member Raphael's Avatar
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    Re: Where is God and Christ?

    There is a very reasonable point of view which says -- you have a brain , so use it .

    But I think there is a certain class of problem where it is absurd to think that the brain can answer them for a long time and / or -- perhaps --- ever .

    What sort of problems ?

    Those where the brain has yet to establish the reference points which even allow the problem to be accurately outlined .

    Such as where is God ?

    Forget Jesus because if you find God , 'he' will tell you all about his alleged son .


    The Bible is clearly just a partial peep at one or two matters and in a very simple way .

    But it does offer some very believable clues about God .

    Unknowable, being a key one .

    So take the hint and make your life searches more relevant to these times , efficient and productive . imho .

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    Re: Where is God and Christ?

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    This must be a new use of the word "believable" which which I am not yet familiar.

    There is language and there is Physics. Language has the word "unknowable", while Physics has an exploratory tool called mathematics. I know which I'd entrust with my hard-earned understanding of the world.

    The bible has been in existence ever since Ezra's scribes established the Temple on the run-down ruins of an older complex and stole Jerusalem, settling into a life of well-fed luxury. I'm delighted that the corpus has survived so well but it is solely the construct of human minds. The word "unknowable" is an aspect of fiction, not of a real-life independent monster leeching off its terrorized creation. When I see a rainbow I am not looking at a promise made by a genocidal outrage, I am looking at a campfire folk tale.
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

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