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Thread: The Ukraine phone call

  1. #61
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    Re: The Ukraine phone call

    Quote Originally Posted by tude dog View Post
    Pence for President?
    I can't think of much worse than leaving Trump in office, but he is on that very tiny list.
    "The trouble with people isn't that they don't know, but that they know so much that ain't so." - Will Rogers
    "Truth isn't Truth" - Rudy Giuliani

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    Re: Impeach Away

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    That's a good summary of my point, yes, along with my describing both Presidents Bush and Obama as being warmongers.



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casual...Deaths_overall
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casual...rian_Civil_War
    http://www.unknownnews.net/casualties.html
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet...War_casualties

    I make that a demonstrable half million dead for President Obama and in excess of 800,000 for President Bush, though that ignores the increased mortality attributable to scarcity, hunger and disease brought on as a result of the conflicts. The Lancet study is reasonable confirmation of the Iraq estimate.

    I'm prepared to bring the "millions" down to "hundreds of thousands" if you prefer. It still leaves the two of them responsible for hundreds of deaths for each death we could attribute to President Trump.

    Do I not recall President Trump laughing at the inanity of the Pentagon when they wanted to use Massive Ordnance Air Blasts on the caves at Bora Bora and told them to go play at being soldiers if they really had to so long as they didn't hurt people? Maybe I made that up but the paltry effect was pretty much the same. "A BBC reporter [...] reported that an Afghan officer had said there were hundreds of similar caves in the area. The Afghan officer also said that trees 100 metres from the impact point had remained standing".
    Thank you for the list of deaths. A lot of killing going on.

    Not much directing credit/blame in any directe action.

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    Re: Impeach Away

    Quote Originally Posted by tude dog View Post
    Thank you for the list of deaths. A lot of killing going on.

    Not much directing credit/blame in any directe action.
    Let me provide that too then.

    We have four wars listed. The required answers involve deciding who invaded Afghanistan? And then who invaded Iraq? And then who destabilized Libya into a civil war by financing otherwise incapable anti-government exiles? And then who destabilized Syria into a civil war by financing otherwise incapable anti-government exiles?

    If, as I do, you find the answer to all four question is America, you've found the direct responsibility for all the deaths.
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    Premium Member tude dog's Avatar
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    Re: Impeach Away

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    Let me provide that too then.

    We have four wars listed. The required answers involve deciding who invaded Afghanistan? And then who invaded Iraq? And then who destabilized Libya into a civil war by financing otherwise incapable anti-government exiles? And then who destabilized Syria into a civil war by financing otherwise incapable anti-government exiles?

    If, as I do, you find the answer to all four question is America, you've found the direct responsibility for all the deaths.
    Dream on.

    Let me provide that too then.

    We have four wars listed. The required answers involve deciding who invaded Afghanistan?

    For good reason the USA.

    And then who invaded Iraq?

    Perhaps we should have done that when we went to free Kuwait.

    And then who destabilized Libya into a civil war by financing otherwise incapable anti-government exiles?

    Never forget Benghazi

    And then who destabilized Syria into a civil war by financing otherwise incapable anti-government exiles?

    Good point. We should have just took direct action ourselves and let Israel help.

    If, as I do, you find the answer to all four question is America, you've found the direct responsibility for all the deaths.


    I am not a pacifist as pacificism is an evil concept.

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    Re: Impeach Away

    Quote Originally Posted by tude dog View Post
    Dream on.

    Let me provide that too then.
    Our two posts agree in every detail then, don't they. You've added what you appear to believe are extenuations or excuses or even reasons, I didn't offer any.

    Can you recall far enough back to remember the Afghan Government offered to expel all Al Qaeda members from Afghanistan and to hand over Osama bin Laden in particular for interrogation, after 9/11 and before the "Coalition of the Willing" invaded? I wonder why, in your opinion, the Bush White House refused the offer. I wonder whether you think the fact that the Bush White House was so heavily influenced by The Project for the New American Century (PNAC). You will recall that PNAC was obsessed with remoulding the Middle East but that, in their words, ""the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor"". What do you expect the Bush White House intention would be after 9/11, given statements like that from their own planners. They're going to look a gift horse in the mouth?

    As for pacifism, most people admire the Mahatma and you must surely admit he was very effective, and that an armed conflict would not have been.
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    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
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    Re: Impeach Away

    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    Our two posts agree in every detail then, don't they. You've added what you appear to believe are extenuations or excuses or even reasons, I didn't offer any.

    Can you recall far enough back to remember the Afghan Government offered to expel all Al Qaeda members from Afghanistan and to hand over Osama bin Laden in particular for interrogation, after 9/11 and before the "Coalition of the Willing" invaded?...
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...tan.terrorism5

    which followed this:

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/natio...chi-story.html

    Not that I agreed with the Bush administration (Either Bush Administration) on how they handled Afghanistan and Bin Laden, or Iraq.
    "The trouble with people isn't that they don't know, but that they know so much that ain't so." - Will Rogers
    "Truth isn't Truth" - Rudy Giuliani

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    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: The Ukraine phone call

    You're quite right as far as attempted negotiation is concerned and I need to tone down my claim. The offer of 14th October was made by Haji Abdul Kabir, the Taliban's deputy prime minister, "to surrender Mr bin Laden if America would halt its bombing and provide evidence against the Saudi-born dissident" but I concede he lacked authority to make such an offer. I also appear to be wrong about who suggested Al Qaeda be expelled (to, I had thought, Yemen and Somalia), it was discussed but not offered by the Taliban leadership before the invasion began, after which it was irrelevant.

    The official offer regarding bin Laden had only extended to his trial in a third party Islamic court under UN authority, with the US providing evidence to the prosecution.
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    England's troubles will increase until the bishops open Joanna Southcott's box.
    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

  8. #68
    Supporting Member spot's Avatar
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    Re: The Ukraine phone call

    This is an impressive addition to the "transcript". Readers will recall that "a memorandum of a telephone conversation is not a verbatim transcript of a discussion" despite the President's offer of a "complete, fully declassified and unredacted transcript".


    A decorated army officer and the top Ukraine expert on the national security council has reportedly told House impeachment investigators that the White House transcript of a call between the presidents of the US and Ukraine left out important words and phrases.

    The New York Times cited three sources familiar with Alexander Vindman’s testimony on Tuesday who said the omissions included Donald Trump making reference to recordings of the former vice-president Joe Biden and Volodymyr Zelenskiy making reference to Burisma, the company for which Biden’s son Hunter worked.

    Lt Col Vindman tried to edit the White House reconstruction of the call to correct the omissions, but some of his edits were not incorporated into the transcript, according to the report.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...icans-quandary
    I think a full transcript would be welcome at this stage.
    Nullius in verba|||||||||||
    Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!

    The watch of your vision has become reasonable today.

    England's troubles will increase until the bishops open Joanna Southcott's box.
    It’s normal. You must provoke. You must insult the belief of all monotheists. You must make fun of the belief of all monotheists.
    From the upper tier of the Leppings Lane End of the Hillsborough Stadium, I watched the events of that day unfold with horror.
    When the flowers want to oxygen and nutrition, or you’re a wedding or party planner, I will help you too much.
    Write that word in the blood

  9. #69
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    Re: The Ukraine phone call

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    Quote Originally Posted by spot View Post
    This is an impressive addition to the "transcript". Readers will recall that "a memorandum of a telephone conversation is not a verbatim transcript of a discussion" despite the President's offer of a "complete, fully declassified and unredacted transcript".




    I think a full transcript would be welcome at this stage.
    That's what we should have gotten from the beginning, but we didn't and if there is any thread of legal reason that we don't now or in the future, then that's probably going to be the outcome.

    It's a bit ironic that it wasn't that long ago that Republicans would label anyone running for cover behind lawyers was considered the act of a guilty coward. Not anymore though now that their guy is doing it. I mean Trump looks like the most guilty coward in just about every sense that ever was, FFS. This guy hides behind lawyers like a kid hides behind momma's apron.
    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”
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