FG poll.. Does mass Immigration concern you?

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Post by Oscar Namechange »

An Anonymous poll.

Please vote above.

US and British votes please.
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Post by Raven »

With a general election right around the corner, things are about to change anyway. It's an exciting time to be in Britain methinks!:-6
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Raven;1251701 wrote: With a general election right around the corner, things are about to change anyway. It's an exciting time to be in Britain methinks!:-6
It will certainly be very Interesting to see which Party raises Immigration and what new policies are.
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Post by farmer giles »

i think of the UK as a life raft

the poorer countries as a sinking ship with children and parents sick and dying there is room for them on our life boat but should we just leave them diseased and dying to their fate???:thinking:

there is food and warmth enough for all of us on this planet should the ones of us lucky enough to be born in say the uk or US just let the more unfortunate die ??

how would we feel if we lived in those countries huh ???:thinking::thinking:
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Post by Raven »

oscar;1251703 wrote: It will certainly be very Interesting to see which Party raises Immigration and what new policies are.


The guardian today has written an article about freezing benefits for asylum seekers. The story is interesting in that it is trying to get me to feel sorry for them. But the mothers excuse for seeking asylum seems thin to me. :-3





Asylum seekers struggle as benefits cut | Society | The Guardian
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

farmer giles;1251708 wrote: i think of the UK as a life raft

the poorer countries as a sinking ship with children and parents sick and dying there is room for them on our life boat but should we just leave them diseased and dying to their fate???:thinking:

there is food and warmth enough for all of us on this planet should the ones of us lucky enough to be born in say the uk or US just let the more unfortunate die ??

how would we feel if we lived in those countries huh ???:thinking::thinking:
The UK annually invests millions into third world countries and poorer East European Countries. Every time you pay your tax, a proportion will help go to those countries.

I am all in favour of taking genuine asylum seekers who are in fear of an oppressive regime. I am all in favour of taking Immigrants who come here for a better life and work and contribute to our country, embracing the British way of life as my Muslim friends do. I am not in favour of taking migrants who claim asylum yet have passed through 3 or 4 other safe countries to get to us. We are not a bottomless pit of money and free housing. Only a few months ago, this country was on the verge of bankrupcy. In the next two years, whoever wins the election, you will see severe cuts in public spending to pay for bail out. There is already 2.7 million unemployed. You will see more job cuts, pay freezes, strike action etc. The Tories are already proposing that retirement be increased to 66 years old. Why? Because the working British are needed to keep working to keep the country afloat.

The trickle down effect of revenue given by this country to the third world is not working due to corrupt Governments pocketing the money. That's not our fault or GB's fault.

Do you really believe that the UK can continue to pay out the kind of benifits and free housing that we do and stay afloat? The figures do not add up.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Can we differentiate between legal immigration, illegal immigration and asylum seeking as they are three totally different issues.

Legal immigrants have brought more benefit to the country than they have cost - indeed, we'd have been in the sticky stuff in many ways without them.

Asylum seekers should be looked after until their cases are decided (quickly) and then deported immediately if asylum is not granted.

Illegal immigrants should be deported as soon as they are found - too late to then request asylum, if you didn't ask at the front door then goodbye.
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Post by Raven »

oscar;1251718 wrote: The UK annually invests millions into third world countries and poorer East European Countries. Every time you pay your tax, a proportion will help go to those countries.

I am all in favour of taking genuine asylum seekers who are in fear of an oppressive regime. I am all in favour of taking Immigrants who come here for a better life and work and contribute to our country, embracing the British way of life as my Muslim friends do. I am not in favour of taking migrants who claim asylum yet have passed through 3 or 4 other safe countries to get to us. We are not a bottomless pit of money and free housing. Only a few months ago, this country was on the verge of bankrupcy. In the next two years, whoever wins the election, you will see severe cuts in public spending to pay for bail out. There is already 2.7 million unemployed. You will see more job cuts, pay freezes, strike action etc. The Tories are already proposing that retirement be increased to 66 years old. Why? Because the working British are needed to keep working to keep the country afloat.

The trickle down effect of revenue given by this country to the third world is not working due to corrupt Governments pocketing the money. That's not our fault or GB's fault.

Do you really believe that the UK can continue to pay out the kind of benifits and free housing that we do and stay afloat? The figures do not add up.
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Post by Barman »

Bryn Mawr;1251722 wrote: Can we differentiate between legal immigration, illegal immigration and asylum seeking as they are three totally different issues.

Legal immigrants have brought more benefit to the country than they have cost - indeed, we'd have been in the sticky stuff in many ways without them.

Asylum seekers should be looked after until their cases are decided (quickly) and then deported immediately if asylum is not granted.

Illegal immigrants should be deported as soon as they are found - too late to then request asylum, if you didn't ask at the front door then goodbye.


Very well put.:)
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Post by Raven »

Bryn Mawr;1251722 wrote: Can we differentiate between legal immigration, illegal immigration and asylum seeking as they are three totally different issues.



Legal immigrants have brought more benefit to the country than they have cost - indeed, we'd have been in the sticky stuff in many ways without them.



Asylum seekers should be looked after until their cases are decided (quickly) and then deported immediately if asylum is not granted.



Illegal immigrants should be deported as soon as they are found - too late to then request asylum, if you didn't ask at the front door then goodbye.
The problem seems to be in finding all the illegals. And then there is the upper eschelon who insist on employing them..(Baroness something..)
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Raven;1251763 wrote: The problem seems to be in finding all the illegals. And then there is the upper eschelon who insist on employing them..(Baroness something..)
BBC NEWS | UK | UK Politics | Illegal immigrant figure revealed

The truth is, the foriegn office actually has no Idea of the true figures.
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Post by minks »

Raven;1251763 wrote: The problem seems to be in finding all the illegals. And then there is the upper eschelon who insist on employing them..(Baroness something..)


yeah they work for cheap and once they get a foot in the door they bring their families over and next thing you know they take over your laws, your entry level jobs, abuse their benifits and foist their beliefs upon you and make you feel like the words "Merry Christmas" are a death threat. Oh sorry that's Canada... my bad.:lips:

Oscar I am with you, if they contribute and make an honest effort to integrate I am all for them coming into my country.
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Post by Raven »

oscar;1251768 wrote: BBC NEWS | UK | UK Politics | Illegal immigrant figure revealed

The truth is, the foriegn office actually has no Idea of the true figures.
Exactly. And the now 'for sale' channel tunnel is exceptionally porous.
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Post by Raven »

minks;1251779 wrote: yeah they work for cheap and once they get a foot in the door they bring their families over and next thing you know they take over your laws, your entry level jobs, abuse their benifits and foist their beliefs upon you and make you feel like the words "Merry Christmas" are a death threat. Oh sorry that's Canada... my bad.:lips:



Oscar I am with you, if they contribute and make an honest effort to integrate I am all for them coming into my country.
You would think being a smaller place than Canada by about a zillion square miles, they would be easier to find....apparently not.:-2
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Post by Lon »

Bryn Mawr;1251722 wrote: Can we differentiate between legal immigration, illegal immigration and asylum seeking as they are three totally different issues.

Agreed

Legal immigrants have brought more benefit to the country than they have cost - indeed, we'd have been in the sticky stuff in many ways without

them.

Same for the U.S.



Asylum seekers should be looked after until their cases are decided (quickly) and then deported immediately if asylum is not granted.

This should be the case in the U.S.

Illegal immigrants should be deported as soon as they are found - too late to then request asylum, if you didn't ask at the front door then goodbye.


Amen
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Raven;1251763 wrote: The problem seems to be in finding all the illegals. And then there is the upper eschelon who insist on employing them..(Baroness something..)


That's the point I was trying to make, it's not a problem with legal immigration which is what the proposal would try to control but with illegal immigration which would remain untouched.
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Post by Raven »

Bryn Mawr;1251829 wrote: That's the point I was trying to make, it's not a problem with legal immigration which is what the proposal would try to control but with illegal immigration which would remain untouched.
Thats the problem. Noone seems to be able to figure out how to curb the ILLEGAL immigration, so they curb the one thing they can. Maybe hoping the numbers balance out? Who knows what goes on in the mind of a politician?
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Post by Lon »

Raven;1251841 wrote: Thats the problem. Noone seems to be able to figure out how to curb the ILLEGAL immigration, so they curb the one thing they can. Maybe hoping the numbers balance out? Who knows what goes on in the mind of a politician?


Question?? How do the illegals get into the country? Unlike the U.S. with relatively easy access borders, you guys are surrounded by water. Do they come in from the sea?
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Post by buttercup »

I like the idea of anybody in the world being able to live anywhere in the world they choose.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

buttercup;1251853 wrote: I like the idea of anybody in the world being able to live anywhere in the world they choose.
I actually agree with you BC... I too would like to see a world where we were truely global. However, you only have so many tax payers in one land to carry the burden.
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Lon;1251850 wrote: Question?? How do the illegals get into the country? Unlike the U.S. with relatively easy access borders, you guys are surrounded by water. Do they come in from the sea?
They get to the shores of France through land and then risk life and limb clinging to the undersides of lorrys coming over the channel.

Number of illegal immigrants coming into UK on lorries doubles in two years | Mail Online

Many are smuggled in by the unscrupulous.
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Post by Raven »

not to mention all the overstays of visas.
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Post by buttercup »

oscar;1251863 wrote: I actually agree with you BC... I too would like to see a world where we were truely global. However, you only have so many tax payers in one land to carry the burden.


Agree completely, however in Scotland we don't see the immigrants as a problem, we welcome them, they all work jobs we don't want to do and from what i have seen do it exceptionally well. We are already in population decline and many of our immigrants are returning home.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Raven;1251841 wrote: Thats the problem. Noone seems to be able to figure out how to curb the ILLEGAL immigration, so they curb the one thing they can. Maybe hoping the numbers balance out? Who knows what goes on in the mind of a politician?


Economic warfare - cut off their sources of income and their viability as a source of income to others.

As for the politicians, they always go for the easiest targets and the best soundbytes rather than the root of the problem - it looks good in the short term which is all they're interested in.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Lon;1251850 wrote: Question?? How do the illegals get into the country? Unlike the U.S. with relatively easy access borders, you guys are surrounded by water. Do they come in from the sea?


Some by sea, many in the backs of lorries (either with the drivers knowledge or without) or just fly in on a short stay visa and disappear.
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Post by Raven »

Bryn Mawr;1251876 wrote: Economic warfare - cut off their sources of income and their viability as a source of income to others.



As for the politicians, they always go for the easiest targets and the best soundbytes rather than the root of the problem - it looks good in the short term which is all they're interested in.
Like the cockle pickers? Easier said than done methinks. You would have to find a way so fake paperwork and passports are detected more easily. And stop the so called 'universities' that are used as cover to bring them all in on fake student visas
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Raven;1251887 wrote: Like the cockle pickers? Easier said than done methinks. You would have to find a way so fake paperwork and passports are detected more easily. And stop the so called 'universities' that are used as cover to bring them all in on fake student visas


The main problem is not how to block their income but how to prevent them being driven into an invisible market of exploitation by organised criminals.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Raven;1251887 wrote: Like the cockle pickers? Easier said than done methinks. You would have to find a way so fake paperwork and passports are detected more easily. And stop the so called 'universities' that are used as cover to bring them all in on fake student visas
Surely it is not the Illegals that are the drain on the country? Illegals do not use the NHS opr apply for benifits and free housing for fear of detection. They are the ones who do the jobs that many Brits would not want. It is the legals that arrive with nothing and Immediately go into paid accomodation until they are housed, using the NHS and claiming benifit.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

oscar;1251899 wrote: Surely it is not the Illegals that are the drain on the country? Illegals do not use the NHS opr apply for benifits and free housing for fear of detection. They are the ones who do the jobs that many Brits would not want. It is the legals that arrive with nothing and Immediately go into paid accomodation until they are housed, using the NHS and claiming benifit.


Unfortunately this is not the case - much of the cost lies in the existence of an invisible economy outside of the tax regime and also the checks are not applied sufficiently rigidly on the benefits and housing front to close that door to them.

Your logic also appears to be a touch skewed - if they have no NI number then how can they get the jobs that we do not want (these jobs are within the visible market) but, if they have a fake NI number then they can get housing and benefits.

Also, can you show how someone can get a residence visa to become a legal immigrant without showing a means of support which is one of the requirements for such. How then can they go straight onto benefits and into free housing? I think you might be mixing legal immigrants with asylum seekers here which is, as I said before, a different problem.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Bryn Mawr;1251913 wrote: Unfortunately this is not the case - much of the cost lies in the existence of an invisible economy outside of the tax regime and also the checks are not applied sufficiently rigidly on the benefits and housing front to close that door to them.

Your logic also appears to be a touch skewed - if they have no NI number then how can they get the jobs that we do not want (these jobs are within the visible market) but, if they have a fake NI number then they can get housing and benefits.

Also, can you show how someone can get a residence visa to become a legal immigrant without showing a means of support which is one of the requirements for such. How then can they go straight onto benefits and into free housing? I think you might be mixing legal immigrants with asylum seekers here which is, as I said before, a different problem. Most Illegals work in food outlets that are owned by Chinese, Indian etc. As In the case of the Cockle pickers, they are usually housed and kept by the owner. Jobs washing pans in a Chinese outlet or cockle picking is not a job favoured by the Brits. Although my friends workers are all legal, he bought a house for them that they all share and he pays all the bills there. This is fairly common with Illegal workers if they have family and the right connections here.

I'm sorry Bryn, I have sat on housing commitee's and do know that many immigrants go straight into B & B and onto the housing list with no means to support themselves. However, I do agree that in the main, it is asylum seekers.
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Post by Raven »

Whatever it is, it's complicated. And the question to be asked is what is the draw? Why would so many people come here? Stop the benefits, you stop the flow. Why would so many people risk their lives to get here?
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Raven;1251922 wrote: Whatever it is, it's complicated. And the question to be asked is what is the draw? Why would so many people come here? Stop the benefits, you stop the flow. Why would so many people risk their lives to get here?
Why do they travel through 3 or 4 safe countries to get to the shores of france and not want to stay in France? Of course it is our benifits.
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Post by Raven »

oscar;1251926 wrote: Why do they travel through 3 or 4 safe countries to get to the shores of france and not want to stay in France? Of course it is our benifits. Well that would explain the whole 3rd world wanting to get into Britain! The problem with the current government is that they seem to think they will all fit! :yh_rotfl
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

oscar;1251919 wrote: Most Illegals work in food outlets that are owned by Chinese, Indian etc. As In the case of the Cockle pickers, they are usually housed and kept by the owner. Jobs washing pans in a Chinese outlet or cockle picking is not a job favoured by the Brits. Although my friends workers are all legal, he bought a house for them that they all share and he pays all the bills there. This is fairly common with Illegal workers if they have family and the right connections here.

I'm sorry Bryn, I have sat on housing commitee's and do know that many immigrants go straight into B & B and onto the housing list with no means to support themselves. However, I do agree that in the main, it is asylum seekers.


Waiter and washer up don't jump to mind as "jobs we don't want to do" as much as dustbinmen, street cleaners, sewage workers, etc - none of which are open to illegal immigrants without fake papers.

I'd also re-iterate my suggestion that it isn't asylum seekers "in the main", it's almost exclusively asylum seekers who go straight into free housing.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Raven;1251922 wrote: Whatever it is, it's complicated. And the question to be asked is what is the draw? Why would so many people come here? Stop the benefits, you stop the flow. Why would so many people risk their lives to get here?


Certainly, no illegal immigrant should receive one penny in state benefits and it would be relatively easy to ensure that that was the case.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Bryn Mawr;1251938 wrote: Certainly, no illegal immigrant should receive one penny in state benefits and it would be relatively easy to ensure that that was the case.
Surely they don't. The moment they apply, they are detected?
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

oscar;1251957 wrote: Surely they don't. The moment they apply, they are detected?


Would that they were - the checks that are in place are not sufficiently robust to do so.
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Post by Raven »

Bryn Mawr;1251938 wrote: Certainly, no illegal immigrant should receive one penny in state benefits and it would be relatively easy to ensure that that was the case.
I tend to agree with what was asked of me. If I wanted to immigrate here, I had to be prepared to work for it. And my husband had to be able to support and sponser my petition. I think benefits should be reserved for those CITIZENS who are in dire straits. Not poncers and asylum seekers. Who in their right minds, REALLY believes that Britain is the only place where folks would be safe from oppression?
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Raven;1251966 wrote: I tend to agree with what was asked of me. If I wanted to immigrate here, I had to be prepared to work for it. And my husband had to be able to support and sponser my petition. I think benefits should be reserved for those CITIZENS who are in dire straits. Not poncers and asylum seekers. Who in their right minds, REALLY believes that Britain is the only place where folks would be safe from oppression?


This is the point I have been trying to make to Oscar - that before you can legally come to this country you have to show that you will be able to support yourself without state assistance.

As to Asylum Seekers, the genuine ones have usually arrived with nothing and need support. They should get it - but the processing of their application should take a month at most with immediate deportation for those not accepted. Those with a genuine case should have help to set themselves up and get a job.

As to whether a non-citizen should be entitled to benefits, I'm of the mind that, if we accepted them for residency, we have some responsibility for their welfare for the period of their permit which is usually quite restricted. If, at the end of that period they are not able to show a viable means of support then the visa is not renewed and they are deported.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Bryn Mawr;1251964 wrote: Would that they were - the checks that are in place are not sufficiently robust to do so.
I do not agree. The very first requirement for benifit of any kind is a national Insurence number.
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Post by Raven »

Bryn Mawr;1251976 wrote: This is the point I have been trying to make to Oscar - that before you can legally come to this country you have to show that you will be able to support yourself without state assistance.



As to Asylum Seekers, the genuine ones have usually arrived with nothing and need support. They should get it - but the processing of their application should take a month at most with immediate deportation for those not accepted. Those with a genuine case should have help to set themselves up and get a job.



As to whether a non-citizen should be entitled to benefits, I'm of the mind that, if we accepted them for residency, we have some responsibility for their welfare for the period of their permit which is usually quite restricted. If, at the end of that period they are not able to show a viable means of support then the visa is not renewed and they are deported.
Mine is good for as long as I live here. There is no limit to my residency and I do have access to public funds. But even though I joke about being in dire straits as a student, I'm not really. I work part time to subsidise my generous NHS bursary. But thats just me. I think Britain should shut the doors for a period of time, to sweep out the barn if you get my meaning. Other countries can handle the asylum load for awhile.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

oscar;1251977 wrote: I do not agree. The very first requirement for benifit of any kind is a national Insurence number.


And that is exactly the check that is not carried through to the extent needed to screen out the fake duplicate numbers and ensure that only those entitled to use a given number do use it.

You also need a national insurance number to get a legal job but you claim that all of the illegal immigrants are employed doing the jobs we don't want.
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Post by Raven »

Bryn Mawr;1251982 wrote: And that is exactly the check that is not carried through to the extent needed to screen out the fake duplicate numbers and ensure that only those entitled to use a given number do use it.



You also need a national insurance number to get a legal job but you claim that all of the illegal immigrants are employed doing the jobs we don't want.
To get my national insurance number, I had to show my passport, visa, and home office letter!:-2
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Bryn Mawr;1251982 wrote:

You also need a national insurance number to get a legal job but you claim that all of the illegal immigrants are employed doing the jobs we don't want. Then you misunderstood me. To clarify, I pointed out that one legal Immigrant can house many Illegal Immigrants and having them work in their establishments without detection. As long as the legal employer does not declare them on the wages and pays cash in hand along with their housing, many go un-detected.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Bryn Mawr
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FG poll.. Does mass Immigration concern you?

Post by Bryn Mawr »

Raven;1251983 wrote: To get my national insurance number, I had to show my passport, visa, and home office letter!:-2


Take my wife as an example, she's not worked or claimed benefits in a quarter century. Anyone who found out her NI number could quote it, using her name but their address, to obtain benefits because full checks are not done.

It's even worse than that, because no cross check is done between the benefits system and the HMRC system, the person involved could easily be in work at a different address and the benefits check would not detect the duplication.
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Bryn Mawr
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FG poll.. Does mass Immigration concern you?

Post by Bryn Mawr »

oscar;1251984 wrote: Then you misunderstood me. To clarify, I pointed out that one legal Immigrant can house many Illegal Immigrants and having them work in their establishments without detection. As long as the legal employer does not declare them on the wages and pays cash in hand along with their housing, many go un-detected.


Indeed true, but as they are not paying taxes they are not contributing to our economy as you claimed.

It is, certainly, another aspect that needs to be clamped down on - swinging fines on any employer found using their services would be a good start.
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Oscar Namechange
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FG poll.. Does mass Immigration concern you?

Post by Oscar Namechange »

Bryn Mawr;1251991 wrote: Indeed true, but as they are not paying taxes they are not contributing to our economy as you claimed.

It is, certainly, another aspect that needs to be clamped down on - swinging fines on any employer found using their services would be a good start. I agree Bryn but it's swings and roundabouts then. For what we fail to collect in taxes, we are not paying out with them claiming benifit, housing and NHS.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Bryn Mawr
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FG poll.. Does mass Immigration concern you?

Post by Bryn Mawr »

oscar;1251994 wrote: I agree Bryn but it's swings and roundabouts then. For what we fail to collect in taxes, we are not paying out with them claiming benifit, housing and NHS.


Given what's been said already, will you show that :-

1) illegal immigrants are not claiming benefits, housing and NHS

2) legal immigrants are claiming more in benefits, housing and NHS than they are paying in taxes

Without that, your argument does not stack up.
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Oscar Namechange
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FG poll.. Does mass Immigration concern you?

Post by Oscar Namechange »

Bryn Mawr;1251997 wrote: Given what's been said already, will you show that :-

1) illegal immigrants are not claiming benefits, housing and NHS

2) legal immigrants are claiming more in benefits, housing and NHS than they are paying in taxes

Without that, your argument does not stack up.
I will try to get some official figures.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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FG poll.. Does mass Immigration concern you?

Post by minks »

buttercup;1251872 wrote: Agree completely, however in Scotland we don't see the immigrants as a problem, we welcome them, they all work jobs we don't want to do and from what i have seen do it exceptionally well. We are already in population decline and many of our immigrants are returning home.


you are lucky BC. I have no problem with anyone moving to any country, as long as they are not coasting and burdening our system. I say they should integrate and embrace their new country.

Sadly like the UK we struggle with this here in Canada. Many come here expecting hand outs, expecting the laws to change for them (yes here is one, in my city it is mandatory to wear a bike helmet both pedal and motor bikes ok) certain nationalities have faught this law because they are not allowed or will not remove their head gear for religious reasons. We also have insurance scam issues with sadly many foreign people who come here and have car accidents and claim "no speak english" repeatedly and get away with scammy stuff prolly goes beyond insurance I am sure.

I could go on and on about them honestly and trust me I am not prejudice but I swear to god Brown is the new White here in Canada, I am a freakin minority in my homeland. I am approaching 50 and never have I ever felt so dam unCanadian as I have been feeling in the last 5-10 years. Guess what same was said by my daughter and she is a 3rd generation Canadian, how dam sad.
�You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough.�

― Mae West

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