English independence

A forum to discuss local issues in the UK.
gmc
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Post by gmc »

So it looks like the english may soon be independent - or to be more accurate that part of thye country governed by westminster

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17739 ... stminster/

Do you think they will cope without the scottish subsidy and where on earth will they put the trident submarines as well as the thirty mothballed nuclear submarines sitting around rosyth and devonport. Given that the tories couldn't negotiate their way to buy a kitkat in a teaschop the futiure for them outside europe in thrall to donald trump and his really great trade deal looks bleak to put it mildly. Where do we send the food parcels and how do we keep all the refugees from crossing in to scotland? No doubt farage will blame the eu.

I think these guys have a relvance in todays england, imagine if the farages hadn't come here from france and boris's german ancestors had stayed at nome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diggers

"An undercurrent of political thought which has run through English society for many generations and resurfaced from time to time (for example, in the Peasants' Revolt in 1381) was present in some of the political factions of the 17th century, including those who formed the Diggers.[citation needed] It involved the common belief that England had become subjugated by the "Norman Yoke". This legend offered an explanation that at one time a golden Era had existed in England before the Norman Conquest in 1066. From the Conquest on, the Diggers argued, the "common people of England" had been robbed of their birthrights and exploited by a foreign ruling-class.[citation needed]"

Was the queen conned by cameron and johnston? Our politicians are so disappointing
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spot
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Post by spot »

Constitutionally the Queen could be replaced by a tub of lard. She is not allowed to be influenced. She must accept all "advice" for which the correct word is instructions. Except, of course, during a national emergency at which point she is the sole font of power, her word devolved through her commanders is absolute law and she had better do it right, that's all I can say. We haven't ever had a national emergency so far.

The trouble with England is that electorally it's full of tossers I'd not let past my door if they called for tea. That's the electorate, not the MPs, just to be clear.

If, on the other hand, it became a legal obligation for everyone over the age of twelve to vote in every election, we might get a representative government which would do a better job. I'd vote for that.
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Post by magentaflame »

don't bank on it ...voting is compulsary here and look what we've ended up with . people resent being told by law to vote for people they wouldn't spit on.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
gmc
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Post by gmc »

We really need proportional representation for westminster elections but neither tory or labour support it as the first past the post system works in their favour, The next tgeneral election if the remain support is spread out the tory and brexit leavsre will win the majority of seats despite overwhelmimng numbers voting against them.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17914 ... newsnight/

"Despite the discussion being billed as on “the changing landscape of UK politics”, the SNP were excluded, and an apology was later offered to the party. "

They're the third largest party in westminster they have more actual party members than the tories but you would think the snp don't exist if you watch the bbc. There are mass demonstration up and down the country calling for another independence referendum. Jo swinson sits in a scottish seat There's a very good chance she may lose it, what then for the libdems? The 2015 election when the snp took all but one of the westminster seats was an aberration but I could see iy happening again.
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Post by spot »

gmc;1525363 wrote: We really need proportional representation for westminster elections
No, we really don't. Proportional representation requires each party to put forward a national list of candidates in top-down order of who the party wants to be elected, and no amount of voting by the electorate can stop the candidates at the top of the list from being unelected. The entire point of a constituency election is to be able to unelect candidates the electorate doesn't want.

I've no problem with transferable votes within a constituency, that's not an issue. What is horribly unacceptable is proportional representation and the consequent forced election of the party fat cats who are thereby guaranteed re-election regardless of the will of the people.

The European Election this year was proportional representation at the regional level, that's why bloody Ann Widdecombe get elected as my representative because she was top of the West of England Brexit list. None of us would have voted for her as a person.
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Post by gmc »

That's a fault of the version used not the idea itself. Scotland uses the Additional Member System, you vote for a constituemcy MP and a list mp.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Additio ... ber_system

n an election using the additional member system, each voter casts two votes: a vote for a candidate standing in their constituency (with or without an affiliated party), and a vote for a party list standing in a wider region made up of multiple constituencies. The constituency vote is used to elect a single representative in the voter's constituency using the traditional first past the post system: the candidate with the most votes (not necessarily a majority of the electorate) wins. The regional vote is used to elect representatives from party lists to stand in regional seats, taking into account how many seats were gained by that party in the constituency vote, using a system of proportional representation: the number of seats a party receives will roughly reflect its percentage of the vote.

It was intended to prevent any one party getting an overall majority and coalition governments be the norm, Lib dems and labour formed the first government now it is primarily the snp and the greens with libdems and labour reduced to a ruck. That the snp do so well speals volumes. It would be fair to say scots are a lot more interested in what goes on as a result of their vote actually making a difference.
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Post by spot »

gmc;1525368 wrote: That's a fault of the version used not the idea itself. Scotland uses the Additional Member System, you vote for a constituemcy MP and a list mp.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Additio ... ber_system

n an election using the additional member system, each voter casts two votes: a vote for a candidate standing in their constituency (with or without an affiliated party), and a vote for a party list standing in a wider region made up of multiple constituencies. The constituency vote is used to elect a single representative in the voter's constituency using the traditional first past the post system: the candidate with the most votes (not necessarily a majority of the electorate) wins. The regional vote is used to elect representatives from party lists to stand in regional seats, taking into account how many seats were gained by that party in the constituency vote, using a system of proportional representation: the number of seats a party receives will roughly reflect its percentage of the vote.

It was intended to prevent any one party getting an overall majority and coalition governments be the norm, Lib dems and labour formed the first government now it is primarily the snp and the greens with libdems and labour reduced to a ruck. That the snp do so well speals volumes. It would be fair to say scots are a lot more interested in what goes on as a result of their vote actually making a difference.


You seem not to see that the system you have described does not allow the electorate to dismiss the party fat cats who put themselves at the top of the party list. That is my sole and complete objection to the process and wherever there is a regional or national party list, that is a guaranteed consequence. It's built into the concept of proportional representation and it is corrupt.
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Post by gmc »

spot;1525369 wrote: You seem not to see that the system you have described does not allow the electorate to dismiss the party fat cats who put themselves at the top of the party list. That is my sole and complete objection to the process and wherever there is a regional or national party list, that is a guaranteed consequence. It's built into the concept of proportional representation and it is corrupt.


Didn't say it was perfect but you do have to represent as wide a spread as possible.What is your solution? I await with interest you suggestion as to how you stop any political party having leaders at the top who take any regional seats if they cannot win a constituency seat. Ruth davidson incidentally won her constiuency seat outright much to her surprise. Not all party leaders are necessarily fat cats and one of the biggest problem the snp have for the futuire is labour apparatchiks moving across to try and stay in power. If you look at the labour party their left wing are equally as self seeking and undemocratic as the tories.
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Post by spot »

gmc;1525422 wrote: I await with interest you suggestion as to how you stop any political party having leaders at the top who take any regional seats if they cannot win a constituency seat.


As I said, it cannot be done, it is an impossible thing to do, once you have party lists in any form of election you will have some preferred party candidates guaranteed to win regardless of the electorate not wanting them. Whether it is regional or national makes no difference.

Obviously an extreme case of a party getting no votes is also going to get nobody elected from the top of a party list either, but you can all too easily have a party getting, say, 4% of the national vote, winning no constituency seats but having a half dozen MPs from their party list elected. It's a process which will let in the extremists which we have so far kept out of parliament. Keeping them out is good thing.

That's why I refuse to approve any voting system which includes party lists.

Single transferable votes within a constituency is fine, it reverses the winner from most-favoured to least-disliked. I prefer that.

Shifting surplus votes after finding the most-favoured candidate in a constituency, and using those surplus votes a second time to pick extra candidates off a party list, is a nasty abomination which any party leader would just love to have control of.
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Post by gmc »

spot;1525424 wrote: As I said, it cannot be done, it is an impossible thing to do, once you have party lists in any form of election you will have some preferred party candidates guaranteed to win regardless of the electorate not wanting them. Whether it is regional or national makes no difference.

Obviously an extreme case of a party getting no votes is also going to get nobody elected from the top of a party list either, but you can all too easily have a party getting, say, 4% of the national vote, winning no constituency seats but having a half dozen MPs from their party list elected. It's a process which will let in the extremists which we have so far kept out of parliament. Keeping them out is good thing.

That's why I refuse to approve any voting system which includes party lists.

Single transferable votes within a constituency is fine, it reverses the winner from most-favoured to least-disliked. I prefer that.

Shifting surplus votes after finding the most-favoured candidate in a constituency, and using those surplus votes a second time to pick extra candidates off a party list, is a nasty abomination which any party leader would just love to have control of.


Like I said not perfect but dtill better than first past the post. UKIP have had an influence way beyond their actual numbers and yes we didget a ukip msp who got a level of exposure on tv way beyond that of anyone else. Came across as the complete ******** that he was.
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Post by FourPart »

MEPs are elected on a PR basis.

Look at the mess that's in.
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Post by gmc »

FourPart;1525455 wrote: MEPs are elected on a PR basis.

Look at the mess that's in.


It's still better than first past the post and the mess is a reflection of the method chosen and the indifference people with which people view the european elections. So what is your suggestion to sort it?

Most people in this country do not vote tory, indeed in most tory seats most of the electorate vote for anyone but the tories yet we have a tory government. Very few MP's get more than 50% of the vote to win outright most are on less than 1/3rd of the vote. We imposed proportional representation on germany, austria and italy post ww2 as it is a system that prvents a minority taking control. hitler did it with less than 1/3rd of the deputies in the reichstag the first thing he did was prevent opposition members being able to vote. There are rioght wing parties in germany nand austria yes they get seats ad make headway but they are not able to take over in the way brexiteers have in this country.

Boris johnston was elected by less than 1% of the electorate in this country you are trying to defend the indefensible.

Unionists are now talking aboutb imposing a 2/3rds of the electirate in favour for a future indyref in scotland. Yoo bad they didnlt do that for brexit.

Why is westminster so terrified that scitland become independent if we are such a drain as they keep suggesting we are.
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Post by gmc »

The tories are definitely running scared now

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17936 ... on-summit/

The snp hardly need to make the case any more.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

gmc;1525722 wrote: The tories are definitely running scared now

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17936 ... on-summit/

The snp hardly need to make the case any more.


He’s not helping his cause is he - foot, mouth, insert
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Post by gmc »

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18158 ... ns-letter/

Well he said no. apparently the snp are su[p[osed to keep their promises even if they are fictional while the tories are not.

Can you imagine the reaction if the UK had to get the eu's permission to hold a referendum? The level of ignorance and arrogance shown by some of the commentetors piers morgan and the like is wonderful to behold.

Does any of them ever stop to wonder why scots independence is so terrifying a prospect to the westminster establishment?
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Post by gmc »

Ever wonder why you never see any snp mp's being interviewed on the mainstream bbc et al?

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18166 ... ch-snp-mp/

They're so much better than the opposition they have to try and shout them down than let them be heard.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-6465200

To think she represents us in any way at all is depressing not to say just just downright embarrassing
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Post by LarsMac »

The English are seeking independence?

From whom?
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Post by spot »

LarsMac;1529648 wrote: The English are seeking independence?

From whom?


From the United Kingdom. At the moment there is a Welsh assembly with devolved powers, on a par with your State governments perhaps. The Ulstermen have had their Stormont for the last hundred years, during most of which they've ground the original inhabitants into the dirt and refused them both employment and civil rights - the parallels with State government is perhaps becoming clearer already. The Scots have their debating chamber in Edinburgh and might be compared with the Hawaiians in that they want secession from the Union.

England has nothing except a minority opinion calling for the abolition of the Westminster government and fully devolved English administration and actually that's been growling in the background ever since Gladstone, the Irish and the 1880s. Since 1977 it's been called the West Lothian Question and it's never been answered. The English are strategically outvoted at Westminster by all these partisan foreigners with their regional demands, whose parochial interests never benefit the nation as presently constituted.
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Post by gmc »

LarsMac;1529648 wrote: The English are seeking independence?

From whom?


It's tongue in cheek aimed at the english/british posters on the forum to wind themup.. The westminster establishment are terrified of scots independence because they know they are heavily subsidised by them as well little isues such as where would they base trident



"The English are strategically outvoted at Westminster by all these partisan foreigners with their regional demands, whose parochial interests never benefit the nation as presently constituted."

Actually snp mp's have always abstained from voting in solely english matters until quite recently as a way to make a point. Labour used to need scots labour MP's to have any chance of forming a government. they have gone from 49 scot's labour MP;s down to one and that's just one of the rteasons england would be looking forward to decades of tory rule rturning tghem in to a third world country. They still haven't taken the hunt and oppose another referendum.

If you want a hint of the level of ignorance we have to put up with have a read of this.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18163 ... interview/
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Post by gmc »

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18173 ... l-consent/

" Questioning the "value of the guarantees from the Prime Minister and his ministers", he said: "In many ways the reason I’m here now is because of my own frustrations the dilemma that Brexit has imposed upon our island, particularly Northern Ireland, without its consent."

Giving his take, that party's leader Colum Eastwood commented: "They do not care about people here, they don't care about people in Scotland, and they are determined to go on with the madness that is this Brexit.

"Next week we will be dragged out of the European Union against our will, against the will of people here and people in Scotland. That's why it's important that we're here, that's why it's important that we're rejecting it."

Looks like an independence referendum in northern ireland might be on the cards.



https://www.thenational.scot/news/18170 ... ter-talks/

So much for keeping the union together. I hear there is talk about bringing back the sixth verse of the national anthem.
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Post by LarsMac »

gmc;1529741 wrote: https://www.thenational.scot/news/18173 ... l-consent/

" Questioning the "value of the guarantees from the Prime Minister and his ministers", he said: "In many ways the reason I’m here now is because of my own frustrations the dilemma that Brexit has imposed upon our island, particularly Northern Ireland, without its consent."

Giving his take, that party's leader Colum Eastwood commented: "They do not care about people here, they don't care about people in Scotland, and they are determined to go on with the madness that is this Brexit.

"Next week we will be dragged out of the European Union against our will, against the will of people here and people in Scotland. That's why it's important that we're here, that's why it's important that we're rejecting it."

Looks like an independence referendum in northern ireland might be on the cards.



https://www.thenational.scot/news/18170 ... ter-talks/

So much for keeping the union together. I hear there is talk about bringing back the sixth verse of the national anthem.


"the Sixth Verse"?

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Post by spot »

LarsMac;1529744 wrote: "the Sixth Verse"?

Do share


Bonnie Prince Charlie, the Young Pretender, invaded England in 1745, which is why the National Anthem was written that year in a fever of patriotic terror in London.

Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,

May by thy mighty aid,

Victory bring.

May he sedition hush and like a torrent rush,

Rebellious Scots to crush,

God save the King.



To the tune of "My country 'tis of thee", written eighty years later except for the tune.
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Post by gmc »

You just could not make this stuff up could you?

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-6474994
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Post by gmc »

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-6480288

So tell me why are the english or rather westminster establishment so terrified of thescots gettin independence. Actually it's not getting our independence it's taking back control.
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Post by LarsMac »

It seems that you all may be stuck with your neighbors for a while.

The Scotsman:The length of time it would take an independent Scotland to negotiate re-entry to the EU will be dictated by how far the UK diverges from European regulations post-Brexit, officials in Brussels have said.
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Post by LarsMac »

gmc;1529782 wrote: https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-6480288

So tell me why are the english or rather westminster establishment so terrified of thescots gettin independence. Actually it's not getting our independence it's taking back control.


Just the sheer task, and costs of changing all the stationary and signage must be rather daunting.
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Post by gmc »

LarsMac;1529808 wrote: It seems that you all may be stuck with your neighbors for a while.

The Scotsman:The length of time it would take an independent Scotland to negotiate re-entry to the EU will be dictated by how far the UK diverges from European regulations post-Brexit, officials in Brussels have said.


The scotsman is a unionist paper. That's not actually true. The eu have made it clear the way would be open for us to continue our membership as we already comply with all eu rulesas part of the euany agreement with the UK would apply to us. Evewn thew spanish have stated they would have no objection despite rumpurs to the contrary.

did you read the whole article?

"Scotland would be in a unique position, having already been inside the EU. Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, the author of Article 50 and a former UK ambassador to the EU, has said an independent Scotland’s accession to the EU could be ‘very fast’.”"

At the time of the 2014 referendum one of the main planks of the unionist argument was that leaving the UK also meant leaving the eu to maintain membershipm we would have to stay aspart of the UK. Now we are being dragged out against our will they were lying then they are lying now.

The really interesting is why is westminster so terrified of us becoming independent if indeed as they claim we are subsidised by them. a simple fact check gives the lie to that one. Bear in mind scotland is not part of england but a seoerate country joined in a union with them back in 1707. Can you imagine the reaction if our oppressors the EU refused the UK permission to hold a referendum?

It also seems likely a call for a unified ireland and reentry in to the eu woill be on the cards.
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Post by LarsMac »

gmc;1529821 wrote: The scotsman is a unionist paper. That's not actually true. The eu have made it clear the way would be open for us to continue our membership as we already comply with all eu rulesas part of the euany agreement with the UK would apply to us. Evewn thew spanish have stated they would have no objection despite rumpurs to the contrary.

did you read the whole article?

"Scotland would be in a unique position, having already been inside the EU. Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, the author of Article 50 and a former UK ambassador to the EU, has said an independent Scotland’s accession to the EU could be ‘very fast’.”"

At the time of the 2014 referendum one of the main planks of the unionist argument was that leaving the UK also meant leaving the eu to maintain membershipm we would have to stay aspart of the UK. Now we are being dragged out against our will they were lying then they are lying now.

The really interesting is why is westminster so terrified of us becoming independent if indeed as they claim we are subsidised by them. a simple fact check gives the lie to that one. Bear in mind scotland is not part of england but a seoerate country joined in a union with them back in 1707. Can you imagine the reaction if our oppressors the EU refused the UK permission to hold a referendum?

It also seems likely a call for a unified ireland and reentry in to the eu woill be on the cards.


Well, it seems timing is of the essence.

If Scotland and N Ireland exit the EU with the Brexit, how long would they have to reconnect under the current rules, should they decide to bale out on the UK and settle back into the EU?

It seems that Ireland would find the path much easier. They simply reunite with Ireland, already a Member.

You Scots need to extract yourselves from the UK, and then negotiate a membership of your own.

It is easy to talk about how easy it will be, but once all the politicians and lawyers get started on the paperwork, You could be facing Mt Everest.
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Post by gmc »

LarsMac;1529826 wrote: Well, it seems timing is of the essence.

If Scotland and N Ireland exit the EU with the Brexit, how long would they have to reconnect under the current rules, should they decide to bale out on the UK and settle back into the EU?

It seems that Ireland would find the path much easier. They simply reunite with Ireland, already a Member.

You Scots need to extract yourselves from the UK, and then negotiate a membership of your own.

It is easy to talk about how easy it will be, but once all the politicians and lawyers get started on the paperwork, You could be facing Mt Everest.


We're already members by virtue of being part of the UK. We were told the only way to remain a member was not to leave the united kingdom (that was a lie by the way). The uk is a union of supposedly equal partners now we are being dragged out of the EU against our will and the westminster mafia want to prevent us having another vote on it. Quite frankly scottish independence terrifies them. We are not subsidied by england we get partial refund of the monies we pay to the treasury of a goveernment we have no ability to hold to account.

As members of the eu it is the rest of the uk that will have ro deal with us as one of twenty seven members of the eu. Just look at the backing ireland received from the EU in these negotiations as opposed to us being totally excluded from any discussion with the eu about brexit.
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Post by gmc »

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-6494735

Donald Tusk says plans for Scotland to rejoin EU would be welcomed 'enthusiastically'

You have to laugh at the tories, look at what dominic rabb has to say.

Speaking on the same show, foreign secretary Dominic Raab said the remarks were "un-European".

"He said other EU countries dealing with independence movements could be against the inclusion of Scotland in the EU.

"Given the secessionist, separatist tendencies in Spain, in France, in Italy, I'm not sure European leaders, let alone here in the UK, would actually welcome that kind of language.""

Can you imagine what he would have said if the eu had refused to allow the UK a referendum. The simple fact seems to be england does not have the confidence to go it alone without scotland.
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Post by gmc »

You may or may not be aware boris has tried to exclude some journalists and in particular those from the scottish media from ministerial briefings.all scots

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18209 ... ish-media/

Keep it up boris I can see hom beomg met with mass demonstrations if he comes up tom scotland and if he makes the mistake of trying to ban (as he has threatened to do) nocola sturgeon from attending the climate summit in glasgow who knows.

We have a fascist government in nthe UK with an elected dictator who would have thought it.
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Post by gmc »

Who'd have thought it? Certainly not sinn fein from the number of candidates they put up.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... l-election

Will that arch defender of democracy try and tell the irish they can't have referendum as well?
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Post by gmc »

Thay're at it again.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18427 ... -up-group/

The snp don;t rfeally have to try ad make a case for independence the tories are doing it for them.
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English independence

Post by Bryn Mawr »

gmc;1532592 wrote: Thay're at it again.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18427 ... -up-group/

The snp don;t rfeally have to try ad make a case for independence the tories are doing it for them.


It seems to me that there are two functions carried out by the Scotland Office and therefore involving the committee, firstly promoting Scotland’s interests within the Westminster government and secondly providing the Westminster government with an oversight of the actions of the Scottish Parliament.

These functions should be separated and the first function should be reserved solely for Scottish MPs in Westminster but the second function should have, I would have thought, at least as many non-Scottish MPs as Scottish.

:-p

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