The Line

Discussion group for those recovering from substance abuse. This is the place to talk about your struggles and success in regards to addiction.
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koan
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Post by koan »

This was a good question from the Recovery Forums intro thread. Thought it deserved a thread of its own.

Bryn Mawr wrote: At what point does a drink habit cross the line into an addiction? When does someone who drinks regularly become an alcoholic?
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Mystery
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Post by Mystery »

Whoops, should have had a look at this thread before I replied in the other :)

....

Put simply, when the drink/drug takes control. When one no longer has a choice as to whether they'll pick up that drink or that drug (and not everyone realizes that they don't have a choice).

The words "habit" and "regularly" are already alarming though, because before dependence comes abuse, which may or may not lead to one becoming an alcoholic, depending on whether something is done, or happens, to stop the cycle. In addition, not everyone who drinks is or will become an alcoholic. It's a physical/mental disease that one has, and is more generalized than just the act of using a substance. I'd be happy to go into details re: diagnostic criteria etc, but fear I'd be boring the heck outta you guys
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cherandbuster
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Post by cherandbuster »

Mystery;535863 wrote: I'd be happy to go into details re: diagnostic criteria etc, but fear I'd be boring the heck outta you guys


I'd be interested in hearing about it, if you don't mind taking the time to fill us in :-6
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Bryn Mawr
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

cherandbuster;536234 wrote: I'd be interested in hearing about it, if you don't mind taking the time to fill us in :-6


I'd also be interested in more details if you would.
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Mystery
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Post by Mystery »

cherandbuster;536234 wrote: I'd be interested in hearing about it, if you don't mind taking the time to fill us in :-6


I'll be glad to fill you in Cher. If I don't get to it this afternoon, I'll post it in the a.m. ;)

ETA - sure thing Bryn :)
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crazygal
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Post by crazygal »

???
Tan
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Post by Tan »

What happened to this post?:-3
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Post by spot »

Which post? What is there about it that makes you ask?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
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Odie
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Post by Odie »

when it starts at 9 am everyday.
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Post by Tan »

The reason I asked is because Im interested in addictions (and people overcoming them) an thoght the post finished short.

..oh yeah, and Im an alcoholic.:o
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Post by spot »

Ah.

Get to it people, you didn't finish the thread yet.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Odie
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Post by Odie »

Tan;1050237 wrote: The reason I asked is because Im interested in addictions (and people overcoming them) an thoght the post finished short.

..oh yeah, and Im an alcoholic.:o


I have an addiction to cigarettes.

tis never easy to overcome addictions, I believe you really must want to quit and you must have the motivation to carry it out.
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Chezzie
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Post by Chezzie »

I dont have any addictions except maybe the internet:o

My hubby smokes and he drinks, he has tried to quit smoking but always fails but I dont think he tries that hard and also he is so bloody grumpy when he is trying to quit he is almost unbearable to live with.

He drinks everyday, he likes a rum and coke and usually has 1 to 3 glasses a night but I wouldn't say he was an alcoholic or dependant on a drink like he is on the cigarettes. He doesn't HAVE to have a drink, he enjoys having a drink, maybe that's when the line crosses to an addition, when its no longer just for enjoyment and at your leisure, when its necessity and forms a way of life.

I also believe some people have addictive personalities and if they beat one addition they get hooked on another, be it knitting, reading, sex, food, ect
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Nomad
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Post by Nomad »

fuzzy butt;1050276 wrote: Yeah but what is "motivation" to quit something ? .....................what is the motivation factor?


Im not trained in the field like Mystery is but I believe the answer to that can be as individual as the person, though I should think there are probably some fairly generic answers as well.



Hitting rock bottom for many is the motivation. When the choice comes down to do I choose to live or do I choose to die that can end up being the turning point.

In my mind that brings up the question of choice. It appears to me that if in the end you choose sobriety then you had that option from the beginning.



Could be the threat of losing your family, killing someone, losing your job, health reasons, arrested for DUI....everyones rock bottom is different.
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Erik
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Post by Erik »

koan;535529 wrote: This was a good question from the Recovery Forums intro thread. Thought it deserved a thread of its own.


It crosses the line the moment you desire a drink because of how you feel.
"Sometimes it's entirely appropriate to kill a fly with a sledgehammer"
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Odie
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Post by Odie »

fuzzy butt;1050276 wrote: Yeah but what is "motivation" to quit something ? .....................what is the motivation factor?


- this time saying no!...and maintaining that.
Life is just to short for drama.
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spot
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Post by spot »

Erik;1052066 wrote: It crosses the line the moment you desire a drink because of how you feel.


On that extreme definition of alcoholic addiction I've been an addict since I left school and I still am. I've had two glasses of wine in the last month but I invariably drink when it suits my mood at the time. Two glasses of an interesting blend from Corbieres which, I thought, worked rather well with the chuck steak I'd braised in mushrooms.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Erik
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Post by Erik »

spot;1052160 wrote: On that extreme definition of alcoholic addiction I've been an addict since I left school and I still am. I've had two glasses of wine in the last month but I invariably drink when it suits my mood at the time. Two glasses of an interesting blend from Corbieres which, I thought, worked rather well with the chuck steak I'd braised in mushrooms.


What you say is true, you are addicted. However, you are diciplined enough to keep your addiction from interfearing with your day to day life. Your self dicipline is what seperates you from what people consider an alcoholic because you are in control, instead of the alcohol. You become addicted to something the moment it becomes your way of dealing with your feelings or emotions. You get into trouble the moment your addiction starts taking priority in your life be it a drug or activity.

When you look past the stigma you can see that addiction is a matter of prospective. We have to decide for ourselves where the line is which requires us to understand our own addictive nature. The question to ask is "why",

"Why do I need this thing to feel better?" knowing the answer to this question is vital to maintaining control and staying productive.

We all have addictions of some kind. Its a part of being human.
"Sometimes it's entirely appropriate to kill a fly with a sledgehammer"
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spot
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Post by spot »

Erik;1053560 wrote: We all have addictions of some kind. Its a part of being human.Mine, however, don't include alcohol. What you're missing from your attempt at a definition is "craving", preferably chemical-induced on the brain itself. We're back into dictionary definitions again and whether words can be unreasonably stretched by people who want to change the world.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Nomad
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Post by Nomad »

Erik;1053560 wrote: What you say is true, you are addicted. However, you are diciplined enough to keep your addiction from interfearing with your day to day life. Your self dicipline is what seperates you from what people consider an alcoholic because you are in control, instead of the alcohol.




I was a functioning alcoholic. I would drink every night but only just enough to get drunk and still get up in the morning and function at work. The weekends starting at 5:01 pm were a free for all. Id get obliterated, pass out then start in again right away.

Non stop for years on end.

I was "disciplined" only because I knew I had to keep that particular train rolling which required keeping a job.

Extremely convoluted existence if you could even call it that.

I dont believe I ever thought I had things under control.
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Mickiel
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Post by Mickiel »

Nomad;1054885 wrote: I was a functioning alcoholic. I would drink every night but only just enough to get drunk and still get up in the morning and function at work. The weekends starting at 5:01 pm were a free for all. Id get obliterated, pass out then start in again right away.

Non stop for years on end.

I was "disciplined" only because I knew I had to keep that particular train rolling which required keeping a job.

Extremely convoluted existence if you could even call it that.

I dont believe I ever thought I had things under control.




I agree, certain humans can still function in life with their additions well in place. Really the addiction is the moving and demanding urge, all other urges must serve it, or exist to support it. An additction then is a habit that you are supporting, that is really not a good habit for you. But you are getting something from it, that will maintain itself over the years, reguardless of how much of yourself is actually against it.

Addiction then is a habit that a significant part of your own self is really against. Its a struggle, that you never seem to complettely be free of. Addiction then is the freedom you are taking to hurt yourself, and enjoying the freedom. But eventually the joy turns to pain. It is intentional suffering, as well as expectant suffering, that you must continually adjust your life too.

Peace.
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guppy
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Post by guppy »

You have crossed the line when

at the mention of any get together or social happening..you decide if you will go or not based on the fact ..can you drink there



when you lie to your familly and friends so you can drink



when you abandon your responsibilites at work..as a parent a spouse, or a son or daughter to your parents. so you can drink



when you are only hanging out with other "drinking" freinds..when you cannot remember when you did anything with a nondrinking friend..



when you drive while intoxicated..



when you have blackouts or memory loss..or claim to have so as not to have to acknowlege your stupidy while drinking



when you start picking fights with your spouse so as to get away so you can drink..and justify it..you have went to far



when you cant keep a promise to appear somewhere at a certain time or do something with family or friends because you lose track of time or start drinking and cant stop..



when you start missing work because you are too hungover to show up



when you have unprotected sex or adultery because you are too drunk to care..



when your family or friends start asking you to slow down drinking..you have went to far



when you are agitated or hostile because you want to drink..you have went to far
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Oscar Namechange
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

I am no expert and will never pretend to be. I did have a serious addiction to 'Diazapam'. I am not blaming my GP for a moment but he would just write the script as and when i wanted them. Within a few months, i was taking double to what i had been originally prescribed. This was mixed with sleeping pills that i am still on.

There was a lot of talk about refering me to dependency clinic's as the dosage was getting ridiculous but it never happened.

In the end i decided to do it myself.

I was horrified to find i had severe withdrawal effects and it was hell but i did do it myself and did it within a few weeks.

As i said, i'm far from qualified to talk on the subject but i'd be happy to share this with anyone else if it helps in any way.
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xxoakxx
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Post by xxoakxx »

spot;1053615 wrote: ....We're back into dictionary definitions again and whether words can be unreasonably stretched by people who want to change the world.


This is an interesting idea, and I do believe there are those who want to see change in others and will use the label given a negative connotation, to express that. But to use the label about yourself is like drawing that line based upon your self honesty of where you are in life, and where you would like to be. You dont always get where you want to be, but the journey towards that horizon can be amazing.
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Mystery
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Post by Mystery »

Nomad, that was an excellent answer regarding the motivation to quit. It's different for everyone, whether internal or external in nature.

Oscar, Glad to hear you made it thru the withdrawal. W/D from Benzodiazepines is one of the most severe, actually.

As for how you know if the line is crossed, I think there are threads around here that I posted to simplify the requirements for a technical diagnosis, and guppy's post covers a lot of it.

But...

To put it simply, being addicted means you have a need (it can be physical or psychological, contrary to popular opinion) for whatever your substance of abuse is in order to function properly. Problem with that definition is that many people believe an alcoholic or addict drinks/uses every minute of every day and that's not true. In fact, the vast majority of alcoholics/addicts are functioning in daily life, if for no other reason than to a. prove they can; b. support their habit; or c. continue in denial. (those are among others, of course)

I use a complicated number of tools and assessments in my job to make accurate judgments on this, and still whether someone is an addict/alcoholic is ultimately up to them.

I also wanted to address what Eric was saying - the underlying reasons for use of substances is generally related to emotions, or the manipulation of how one feels (i.e. trying to feel "normal", etc). I'm not sure if that's what you were getting at, but if it was, it's accurate. However, while it may start out that way, it becomes (sometimes quite rapidly) more a necessity than a choice.
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Mickiel
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Post by Mickiel »

Mickiel;1061601 wrote: I agree, certain humans can still function in life with their additions well in place. Really the addiction is the moving and demanding urge, all other urges must serve it, or exist to support it. An additction then is a habit that you are supporting, that is really not a good habit for you. But you are getting something from it, that will maintain itself over the years, reguardless of how much of yourself is actually against it.

Addiction then is a habit that a significant part of your own self is really against. Its a struggle, that you never seem to complettely be free of. Addiction then is the freedom you are taking to hurt yourself, and enjoying the freedom. But eventually the joy turns to pain. It is intentional suffering, as well as expectant suffering, that you must continually adjust your life too.

Peace.




Addiction is the continual pacification of the missing link in your life, and the abuse of trying to find it, by pacifying yourself. Rubbing your own ego, pating your feelings on the back, and gaining pleasure by pacifying your mind and body. Intentional indulgence, making your passions overweight. Making yourself King or Queen, being Lord over your desires.

Addiction is a maze. It could be a Love Maze. Misdirection, but steady movement. Always moving but never really getting beyond your own pleasures. Its marching in place, and doing the same thing over and over again, while always expecting different results.

Peace.
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spot
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Post by spot »

Not bad, Mickiel. The "continual" strikes me as a core aspect.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Tan
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Post by Tan »

Nomad;1054885 wrote: I was a functioning alcoholic. I would drink every night but only just enough to get drunk and still get up in the morning and function at work. The weekends starting at 5:01 pm were a free for all. Id get obliterated, pass out then start in again right away.

Non stop for years on end.

I was "disciplined" only because I knew I had to keep that particular train rolling which required keeping a job.

Extremely convoluted existence if you could even call it that.

I dont believe I ever thought I had things under control.


I am a functional alchoholic. I'm down to about every other night now. I dont get sloshed. I do however crave more all the time. I've been justifying the fact that it's acceptable because I'm not a 'bad drunk'. I dont hurt anyone, drive or do anything really silly. I do know, however, the long term it has mentally, psychologically and financially.

I know I have strength to get total control.

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Post by Nomad »

Tan;1064456 wrote: I am a functional alchoholic. I'm down to about every other night now. I dont get sloshed. I do however crave more all the time. I've been justifying the fact that it's acceptable because I'm not a 'bad drunk'. I dont hurt anyone, drive or do anything really silly. I do know, however, the long term it has mentally, psychologically and financially.

I know I have strength to get total control.



:yh_angel:yh_devil


Life is much more rewarding for me now Tan.

Im here if you need me.
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shelbell
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Post by shelbell »

I'm a recovering alcoholic with 5years and 4 months of clean time. The day of my husbands visitation, last Thursday, was the closest I'd been to saying "f" it, I need a drink to get thru this. Then I remembered I had a choice...and I chose NOT to use. Using would not have helped because I still would have woken the next day with the same reality, yet most likely would have started using again. Get clean and stay clean knowing that using or not is a choice we face everyday...but you have to be clean first in order to have that choice.
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Nomad
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Post by Nomad »

shelbell;1159270 wrote: I'm a recovering alcoholic with 5years and 4 months of clean time. The day of my husbands visitation, last Thursday, was the closest I'd been to saying "f" it, I need a drink to get thru this. Then I remembered I had a choice...and I chose NOT to use. Using would not have helped because I still would have woken the next day with the same reality, yet most likely would have started using again. Get clean and stay clean knowing that using or not is a choice we face everyday...but you have to be clean first in order to have that choice.


Strong decision. Would have been so easy to tell yourself your entitled.

Mourning doesnt pass easily or quickly so you could have felt entitled till the cows come home.

And we all know the cows never come home.

Those ungrateful ****ers.
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shelbell
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Post by shelbell »

Nomad;1162136 wrote: Strong decision. Would have been so easy to tell yourself your entitled.

Mourning doesnt pass easily or quickly so you could have felt entitled till the cows come home.

And we all know the cows never come home.

Those ungrateful ****ers.


Thanks Nomie, it really helps to have someone that really understands. I came so close to crossing that line more so than anytime since I got out of rehab. I feel better that I've faced it and said "NO". One is too many...and a thousand is never enough.

My cows have never come home either. ;)
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Nomad
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Post by Nomad »

shelbell;1162198 wrote: Thanks Nomie, it really helps to have someone that really understands. I came so close to crossing that line more so than anytime since I got out of rehab. I feel better that I've faced it and said "NO". One is too many...and a thousand is never enough.



My cows have never come home either. ;)


Ive thought about it. Come close a couple times. But I think back to the way it was.

I really wish I could have 2 or 3 stiff shots of bourbon and call it a day but that doesnt work for me.
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shelbell
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Post by shelbell »

Nomad;1162255 wrote: Ive thought about it. Come close a couple times. But I think back to the way it was.

I really wish I could have 2 or 3 stiff shots of bourbon and call it a day but that doesnt work for me.


The past is a good indication of what our future lives would be like if we picked up again. I knew I was going to die if I didn't stop drinking and I wanted to have many, many years with my family. I was scared clean.
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Post by Tan »

Nomad;1054885 wrote: I was a functioning alcoholic. I would drink every night but only just enough to get drunk and still get up in the morning and function at work. The weekends starting at 5:01 pm were a free for all. Id get obliterated, pass out then start in again right away.

Non stop for years on end.

I was "disciplined" only because I knew I had to keep that particular train rolling which required keeping a job.

Extremely convoluted existence if you could even call it that.

I dont believe I ever thought I had things under control.


This is me. Its really discgusting actually. No one would ever know by meeting me.They actually seem shocked when they discover that Im a 'beer drinker'. Ive made so many excuses to continue my pathetic behaviour...Im still young, I excercise and eat right, Its not effecting anyone.... Ive spent a huge part of 2009intoxicated. And half of it, drinking alone. Im so done with it. Im terrified to stop at the same time.
Tan
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Post by Tan »

Nomad;1137364 wrote: Life is much more rewarding for me now Tan.

Im here if you need me.


Thank you!
Tan
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Post by Ahso! »

I think highly sensitive people tend to become easily addicted to many things. Due to the rawness of life we're sensitive to in own bodies and minds, we tend to want to push harder.

Thankfully, what we are beginning to understand about the fact that at least one in five people experience difficulty in social situations and have used alcohol and drugs to remedy that by self medicating, tells us now that through that understanding we can learn to manage these difficulties, not through any medicating, whether it be by prescription or not, but rather accepting the fact that there are variations in people. Many of us have felt like we are different than others and find comfort in alcohol and drugs. Just the sheer numbers of addicts is a relatively good indicator of how many people are highly sensitive.

The Highly Sensitive Person

Many of you sound so familiar to myself.

Understanding who and what we are is a far better remedy than trying to just stay away or having to hit rock bottom.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



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shelbell
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Post by shelbell »

Tan;1277888 wrote: This is me. Its really discgusting actually. No one would ever know by meeting me.They actually seem shocked when they discover that Im a 'beer drinker'. Ive made so many excuses to continue my pathetic behaviour...Im still young, I excercise and eat right, Its not effecting anyone.... Ive spent a huge part of 2009intoxicated. And half of it, drinking alone. Im so done with it. Im terrified to stop at the same time.


Tan, it's not disgusting...alcoholism knows no boundaries. I went thru all the excuses too, but you don't control the booze, it controls you...and most of my drinking was done by myself too. The one thing that really stands out in your post to me is the part about it not affecting anyone...that's not true. It can affect everyone around you and you just don't realize it. It's also affecting YOU! It doesn't matter if you excercise and eat right, booze still will attack some of your internal organs, especially your liver.

It can be very terrifying, it's like a security blanket, your best friend even. If you are afraid of detoxing and giving it up, I'd like to suggest to you going to a detox center...alcohol is the most deadly to withdrawl from...and maybe even a treatment center. Try out a couple of AA meetings...you'll be surprized how many people are just like you. Good luck, and if you need someone to talk to please feel free to PM me, I've got over 6 years clean now, but there are always going to be temptations...it's learning to deal with those temptations that really help. :-6
Tan
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Post by Tan »

Thanks for the support shellbell. Congrats on your six years. That seems like such a long time! This week alone is going to be testing.

Ive been journaling and taking milk thistle and drinking tons of water. I find one of the most difficult things about going without is trying to fall asleep.

You may recieve a PM or two if I need some cheerleading:)
Tan
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Nomad
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Post by Nomad »

Originally Posted by Bryn Mawr

At what point does a drink habit cross the line into an addiction? When does someone who drinks regularly become an alcoholic?




My 1st drink.

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Nomad
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Post by Nomad »

Tan;1277888 wrote: Ive spent a huge part of 2009intoxicated. And half of it, drinking alone. Im so done with it. Im terrified to stop at the same time.


I understand that. My last 5 years of drinking were a culmination of wrapping my head around the idea of quitting, not thinking it was possible, rationalizing, more drinking and really hitting my bottom. The thought of quitting was an overwhelmingly daunting task. Impossible for me to comprehend.



In the end, it came down to I drink or I dont drink.

Simple equation really. One decision to make. Yes or no.

Think about that.

It can be less complicated than you think but you have to get to that pivotal moment on your own.

You may need to sink a little deeper before youre ready.
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Tan
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Post by Tan »

Nomad;1278107 wrote: In the end, it came down to I drink or I dont drink.

Simple equation really. One decision to make. Yes or no.

Think about that.

It can be less complicated than you think but you have to get to that pivotal moment on your own.

You may need to sink a little deeper before youre ready.


Totally true. Theres been a whole lot of guilt for a long time. I'll take the withdrawl symptoms over hangovers right about now. Im ready.

Having 2 alcoholic parents makes it difficult. As children, my sister and I grew up eating breakfast around empty bottles and dirty ashtrays. Now that I think of it, my fridge has resembled theirs many times...a case of beer and a few condiments at the back. As adults, our relationship has always been alcohol based. Even our visits now (minimized to once a year) include getting faced from beginning to end. They dont contact me unless they've had a few. Im equally at fault for this. It took my husband to point that out. Something so naturally obvious from the outside looking in.

Phew! I know Im sharing alot of info here. I may explode if I dont:)
Tan
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shelbell
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Post by shelbell »

Tan;1278085 wrote: Thanks for the support shellbell. Congrats on your six years. That seems like such a long time! This week alone is going to be testing.

Ive been journaling and taking milk thistle and drinking tons of water. I find one of the most difficult things about going without is trying to fall asleep.

You may recieve a PM or two if I need some cheerleading:)


Tan;1278157 wrote: Totally true. Theres been a whole lot of guilt for a long time. I'll take the withdrawl symptoms over hangovers right about now. Im ready.

Having 2 alcoholic parents makes it difficult. As children, my sister and I grew up eating breakfast around empty bottles and dirty ashtrays. Now that I think of it, my fridge has resembled theirs many times...a case of beer and a few condiments at the back. As adults, our relationship has always been alcohol based. Even our visits now (minimized to once a year) include getting faced from beginning to end. They dont contact me unless they've had a few. Im equally at fault for this. It took my husband to point that out. Something so naturally obvious from the outside looking in.

Phew! I know Im sharing alot of info here. I may explode if I dont:)


Sleeping will be difficult, but it will pass. I too grew up around a bunch of alcoholics...it seemed normal to me that every occasion was an occasion to drink and get sloshed...it was how it was supposed to be...or so i thought.

You are sharing a lot of info here, but that is what will really help you, and you're talking among friends that have gone thru exactly what you are...so share away, and as much as you'd like. And I am only a PM away. :-4
Matt50
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Post by Matt50 »

spot;1052160 wrote: On that extreme definition of alcoholic addiction I've been an addict since I left school and I still am. I've had two glasses of wine in the last month but I invariably drink when it suits my mood at the time. Two glasses of an interesting blend from Corbieres which, I thought, worked rather well with the chuck steak I'd braised in mushrooms.


I was also an alcoholic and a drug addict since I left school, I have a low grades and my mom cried every night for having a hard-headed son. Alcohol and Drugs become my best friends, I get high, I get happy, I forget my problems. But then, I realize that this is not the life that I want to have, and I don’t want my mom to always cry because of me. So I decided to be admitted in a drug addiction center, here in Washington. Luckily, after a long road to recovery, I manage to bring back my normal life. Last week was my one year of being sober, and I hope I will still be sober in my entire life.
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spot
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Post by spot »

Congratulations, I hope you can stay that way.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Matt50
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Post by Matt50 »

Thank you spot :)
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