Defining anti-Semitism

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Defining anti-Semitism

Post by spot »

There's a background article: What's the difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism? - BBC News

I thought I might have a stab at starting a thread.

I have no problem with an area along the Eastern Mediterranean coast being called Israel. I don't mind whether the area is circumscribed by the 1948 border, or the current de facto border, or extends further still so long as it doesn't involve a war to set the boundary.

Judaism or Jewish as a label for a self-identified group of people isn't a ethnicity as far as I'm aware, unlike for example African-American or Chinese or Amerindian. It can't be a religious designation given how many people self-identify as both Jewish and Atheist. If it's used of a group of people I think it has cultural overtones rather than religious or ethnic.

Do I fall into an anti-Semitic category yet?

I have an absolute problem with every country whose Constitution and law distinguishes its application to any ethnicity or religion or culture or gender or sexual orientation, to pick a few categories. That goes for every country which specifies that it applies laws according to an Islamic code, for instance.

Do I fall into an anti-Semitic category yet?

I note that the current Constitution and law of Israel distinguishes its application on the basis of Jewish identity, and I view that as an equivalent problem. I note that the consequence of this identification includes segregation and the restraint of rights.

I think the Constitution and law of Israel should be blind to this or any other such identification, just as I thought the law of South Africa should be when it wasn't. The consequence of those distinctions are obvious now just as they were obvious then.

I would maintain that I am not anti-Semitic.
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Post by Bruv »

I see the present Labour party as a bit of a witch hunt.

Livingston commented something along the lines that 'Criticism of Israeli politics is not anti-semitic'.

His opponents would disagree...........irrationally.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

If you are comparing Israel to South Africa, you are not anti-semitic, but you are an hysterical drama queen. The comparison is stupid, not factual, and illogical.
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Post by spot »

AnneBoleyn;1495100 wrote: If you are comparing Israel to South Africa, you are not anti-semitic, but you are an hysterical drama queen. The comparison is stupid, not factual, and illogical.


What I wrote was that the current Constitution and law of Israel distinguishes its application on the basis of Jewish identity and that the consequence of this identification includes segregation and the restraint of rights. Does it not? Is there no segregation on that basis in Israel at the moment? Does identification on that basis have any effect on the rights of the person identified?
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Post by Mark Aspam »

spot;1495093 wrote: I don't mind whether the area is circumscribed... I don't either, but it's certainly circumcised.
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In order to make a point, you deliberately, spot, included S. Africa. You did not have to.

As to how we identify, our commonality..........we have been persecuted for thousands of years. Whether an Asian Jew, a Middle Eastern Jew or a European (perhaps especially European) Jew, in every Jew was the need of protection, a homeland, which is why we have ALWAYS SAID, since the Diaspora, "Next year in Jerusalem."

People who can't get their beady minds off of the few Jews there are in this world---maybe their obsession IS Anti-Semitic, I'll think about it.
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Post by spot »

AnneBoleyn;1495110 wrote: In order to make a point, you deliberately, spot, included S. Africa. You did not have to. Perhaps it would help if you could explain briefly how the two systems differ. Perhaps the differences between today's Israel and pre-democratic South Africa are enough to outweigh what may be mere superficial similarities. What are the differences?



we have ALWAYS SAID, since the Diaspora, "Next year in Jerusalem." I haven't the slightest problem with the descendants of the exiled people of the Diaspora living reunited in Jerusalem, or in Israel as a whole. None. And you have no reason to think otherwise.
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It seems to me that if anyone criticises the policy of the israeli state rather than being a valid rational criticism of one nations policy towards another you hear cries of anti-semitism as a way of dodging discussing the issues. At it's heart are two tribes that lay claim to the same land, take religion out of it and they might have come to a workable solution by now.

If I point out that the true cause of anti-semitism is two thousand years of christian propogandsa that the jews killed jesus christ and that their punishment was to be rendered homeless does that make me anti-catholic or anti-christian? If I make the factually correct statement that the catholic church actively supported hitler and ordered their priests to pray for him from the pulpit and that it was a pope that introduced the yellow star to be displayed by jews does that make me anti-catholic? If I make the factual point that america passed legislation to prevent the immigration of those of the jewish faith or that anti-semitism was at the heart of american financial support for the nazi party am I being anto american? If I object to the pope and others in the christian estableishment trying to re-write histiory and claim the holocaust was caused by atheists am I raising a legitimate concern or being anti-catholic or anti-christian? Now we are shocked if anyone says the jews were asking for it, go back to the start of the last century and tghere were many who believed they deserved whatever they got just as many believed that those of a darker shade of skin (not so long ago ***** race would have been an acceptable term) were actually inferior. Equal but still not quite so equal.

To call somone an "anti" is to take away the need to consider what has actually been said and whether they have something to say worth listening to. Anti (put in whatever race, creed coour ,nation whatever) has become in our day and age a man made construct intended to stop discussion. Don't listen to what is said he/she is an anti.

Of course you could blame the british for the mess in palestine oe the turks for being on the losing side in ww1.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

spot;1495114 wrote: Perhaps it would help if you could explain briefly how the two systems differ. Perhaps the differences between today's Israel and pre-democratic South Africa are enough to outweigh what may be mere superficial similarities. What are the differences?




I'm not explaining anything to you spot. It's your ax, go grind it yourself. If you can't see your absurdity, don't look to me to inform you.
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AnneBoleyn;1495123 wrote: I'm not explaining anything to you spot. It's your ax, go grind it yourself. If you can't see your absurdity, don't look to me to inform you.


The thing is, in both the old South Africa, and in the ex-Confederacy States in America before JFK's presidency, and in the present Israel, there has been an official categorization of residents. In the first and second instances it was based on descent from Europeans, in the last it's those that the state recognizes as Jews. The similarities between the three legal systems include discrimination, segregation and differentiated rights on the basis of those categories.

Now, I regard this as a plain statement of fact which, if it's not true, would be very easy to show to be false in which case I'll retract and apologize. I know it's true, you know it's true, and all the bluster in the world isn't going to make anyone think you're right in claiming I'm wrong. Quite simply, I'm not.

Fixing who could vote candidates into government and who couldn't was the underlying basis of white majority rule in the Southern States until well into my lifetime, it was the underlying basis of white majority rule in the the old South Africa until 25 years ago, and it's the current underlying basis of government in Israel today. The discrimination and segregation and limitation of rights in all three instances have been an unavoidable consequence.

Do I fall into an anti-Semitic category yet? Because I don't think that highlighting injustice is anti-Semitic, and I think the current Constitution and law of Israel is unjust insofar as it creates preferential treatment on the basis of ethnicity, religion or culture.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Bully for you. Can you think of any social injustices in N. Korea or Muslim countries? Israel is a Jewish state, which could not have been put in place without the aid of your country, France, USSR, USA. A Jewish state was needed, is needed, as people hate Jews. All over the world, but especially Europe. I did not invent that, it is TRUTH.
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AnneBoleyn;1495125 wrote: Bully for you. Can you think of any social injustices in N. Korea or Muslim countries? Israel is a Jewish state, which could not have been put in place without the aid of your country, France, USSR, USA. A Jewish state was needed, is needed, as people hate Jews. All over the world, but especially Europe. I did not invent that, it is TRUTH.


Other countries do get crirticised for their human rights records especially the likes of Saudi Arabia maybe the question should be why are those countries record not bigger issues than they are, why is criticism of saudi arabia not portrayed as being anti-muslim because when you look at it the whole justification for Saudi arabia's justice system is muslim sharia law? It is the origin of wahibism that should be a pariah state but they're not. You could argue american support for israel is a knee jerk guilt reaction for their support for hitler and anti-semitic immigration policies pre ww2 but I won't in case someone accuses me of being anti-american.

As to ken Livingstone that is all about the blairites in the labour party trying to oust left wingers and get at corbyn. I don't know of you actually saw his confiontation with john mann but the only motive seems to me is to get jeremy corbyn. He's like an inadequate schoolboy shouting abuse from behmd the wall created by the media.

It is a fact that Hitler did consider helping the zionists move all te jews to palestine it's also a fact that his anti-semitism and that of most of europe comes from the teachings of the cathoilic church that took till the 1960's to finally concede that the jews did not kill jesus only SOME of them. People are trying ton re-write history buy claiming the holocaust was caused by atheists now that is offensive.

All over the world, but especially Europe. I did not invent that, it is TRUTH


What in places like china? Most of the world is actually indifferent to judaism. Zioinism is a movement within judaism that many jews do not support (I think correct me if I'm wrong) most mainstream jews would quite happily live in peace ith thei neighbours it's the zealots that don't want to.
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Post by Bruv »

I watched an interview this morning on breakfast tv, of a man putting across the Jewish perspective on antisemitism, in relation to the current Labour Party row.

He was totally over the top as far as I was concerned, he wouldn't accept any criticism of Israel.

This is the face of PC gone mad, like 'The Race Card' trumps all, in arguments between blacks and whites,"Because you don't/cannot understand.....ever ever"

No doubt at all that there is a rise in antisemitism in the world, it has always been an under current from the right wing racists, whipped up these days by Muslim/Palestinian factors. Naz Sha's FB comments were a step too far I believe, Livingston's defence of her was ill advised, but his comments that lead to his suspension, in my opinion, have been blown out of all proportion.

His comments......



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Bruv;1495137 wrote: I watched an interview this morning on breakfast tv, of a man putting across the Jewish perspective on antisemitism, in relation to the current Labour Party row.

He was totally over the top as far as I was concerned, he wouldn't accept any criticism of Israel.

This is the face of PC gone mad, like 'The Race Card' trumps all, in arguments between blacks and whites,"Because you don't/cannot understand.....ever ever"

No doubt at all that there is a rise in antisemitism in the world, it has always been an under current from the right wing racists, whipped up these days by Muslim/Palestinian factors. Naz Sha's FB comments were a step too far I believe, Livingston's defence of her was ill advised, but his comments that lead to his suspension, in my opinion, have been blown out of all proportion.

His comments......



Haavara


Well, I agree. Having anti Zionist and pro Palestinian views, aren't in themselves, anti-semitic. I think much of this witch hunt is coming from the Blairites that oppose Corbyn and the slide to the left. They've been looking for ammunition for a while now and this has been a good opportunity for them to rally some opposition.

Does anti- Semitism exist ? Of course. Within both parties. But I think there is an agenda going on and all this is just a convenient excuse.
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You know, *I* criticize Israel too. However, with all the problems in so many countries far far far worse, I am curious when people like spot, enamored as he is with countries like N. Korea, focus on people who have been the butt of focus for millennia. Fascinated by Jews, just can't get your mind off them; just can't understand or tolerate a miniscule amount of people who to them have been in charge of every major movement in the West, from capitalism, communism, psychiatry, the film industry, the doctor you wish you had; as Mr. Spock (Leonard Nimoy & Shatner BOTH being Jews) said FASCINATING.

Who do YOU trust more with the Bomb? Israel or Palestine? Who would YOU trust more with most things you cherish? About time you people got a new hobby. Look to your own backyard, you'll find plenty of muck to deal with.
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Post by spot »

AnneBoleyn;1495141 wrote: focus on people who have been the butt of focus for millennia.If you check back, I've criticized the Constitution and law of Israel. I've focused on no people, on no person, I've focused on documents.



Who do YOU trust more with the Bomb? Israel or Palestine?Israel is a country. What is this "Palestine" of which you speak? I'm aware that many Palestinians live within the borders of Israel, but I have no idea what you mean by "Palestine". Are they citizens of Israel or are they stateless, these people who were born within the current borders of Israel? Can they vote for candidates to the Knesset or have they no national representation? Perhaps you could show me Palestine on a present-day map.

I note that part of the settlement which changed the Constitution and law of the old South Africa permanently dismantled South Africa's nuclear weapons program and decommissioned the country's stockpile.
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AnneBoleyn;1495141 wrote: You know, *I* criticize Israel too. However, with all the problems in so many countries far far far worse, I am curious when people like spot, enamored as he is with countries like N. Korea, focus on people who have been the butt of focus for millennia. Fascinated by Jews, just can't get your mind off them; just can't understand or tolerate a miniscule amount of people who to them have been in charge of every major movement in the West, from capitalism, communism, psychiatry, the film industry, the doctor you wish you had; as Mr. Spock (Leonard Nimoy & Shatner BOTH being Jews) said FASCINATING.

Who do YOU trust more with the Bomb? Israel or Palestine? Who would YOU trust more with most things you cherish? About time you people got a new hobby. Look to your own backyard, you'll find plenty of muck to deal with.


I am not anti-Semitic.

Your argument *Is* part of the anti-Semite's argument too.

There are lots of Jews in positions of influence in lots of countries. Their influence is seen as some of the problem contributing to Antisemitism, they are seen to be pulling strings on Israels behalf, such as dominating media news coverage about Israel.

Strangely enough the fear of the influence of Jews in positions of power is the same as the fear of Muslims in power, because they are both seen to have another agenda.
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spot;1495144 wrote: If you check back, I've criticized the Constitution and law of Israel. I've focused on no people, on no person, I've focused on documents.



Israel is a country. What is this "Palestine" of which you speak? I'm aware that many Palestinians live within the borders of Israel, but I have no idea what you mean by "Palestine". Are they citizens of Israel or are they stateless, these people who were born within the current borders of Israel? Can they vote for candidates to the Knesset or have they no national representation? Perhaps you could show me Palestine on a present-day map.

I note that part of the settlement which changed the Constitution and law of the old South Africa permanently dismantled South Africa's nuclear weapons program and decommissioned the country's stockpile.


You are so transparent. A country, a government, is 'We the People', whether there is a constitution or not. As for the Palestinians, at 9/11 they cheered in the streets, so my interest in their welfare is lagging behind their stupidity, and yes, it was a stupid act. They have allowed themselves to be directed by Hamas. They offer up no Gandhi's, no Martin Luther King's, nothing. Women there are no longer as secularized as they once were, & the wearing of the burkah is more & more common. Women's rights have little interest in your mind, I see. That is not so important to you.

You are so transparent. Your sole purpose, as far as I can see, is to create in people's minds a connection between Israel and South Africa, as you can't seem to leave them out of it. You may not be an anti-semite, but you are a hypocrite.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Bruv;1495147 wrote: I am not anti-Semitic.

Your argument *Is* part of the anti-Semite's argument too.

There are lots of Jews in positions of influence in lots of countries. Their influence is seen as some of the problem contributing to Antisemitism, they are seen to be pulling strings on Israels behalf, such as dominating media news coverage about Israel.

Strangely enough the fear of the influence of Jews in positions of power is the same as the fear of Muslims in power, because they are both seen to have another agenda.


What, pray tell, is the AGENDA? I KNOW! Foisting that Jewish boy, Yeshua, upon you to enslave you in Christianity! Nietzsche was right, the Jews win after all, played the biggest mind game in history.
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Post by Bruv »

AnneBoleyn;1495155 wrote: What, pray tell, is the AGENDA? I KNOW! Foisting that Jewish boy, Yeshua, upon you to enslave you in Christianity! Nietzsche was right, the Jews win after all, played the biggest mind game in history.


What agendas ?

The Muslims ? To make the world Islamic. Apparently, or so the paranoiacs say, they will infiltrate slowly and out breed us, replacing our way of life with theirs, using our tolerance as a tool against us until such time we all adopt sharia law, cover up our women eat halal food and turn to Mecca three times a day.

Or the Jews ? To infiltrate the worlds banking, entertainment, education, governments and media, surreptitiously controlling the world from positions of power, until such time a new world order is established.

My describing what some people believe is not anti-Semitic or anti Muslim, but by looking at real events in the real world right now, these 'beliefs' might be seen as reasonable. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, tied in with the vast movement of people throughout Europe of people from Muslim countries, 'invading' Christian countries until such time they take control.

Again......this is what the over all plan instigated by the Jews has lead to. They have manipulated the powers that be including governments into the instability, causing these events, at the same time controlling the media filtering the news to the cause of a righteous Israel fighting off the evil hating Muslim hoards.

Hopefully I am not so paranoiac and can see through some of the inbuilt bias of the peoples involved. It is natural for a Palestinian brought up with missiles taking out their neighbourhood to think Israel and the US funded arms are evil.

It will also be natural for a Jewish child on a kibbutz who's grandmother was the only family member to survive Nazi Germany and who has witnessed hatred manifest by market bomb blasts to be wary of the Muslim perpetrators.

Where does the cycle end ?
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This really is the blairites out to get back control of the party. It is a fact that at one point hitler was prepared to finance the jews returning to israel. Netanyahu brought it up why is no one accusing him of being anti-semitic are they.

Accusing someone of beingn anti-semitic is a way of stifling discussion about israel. We now have the pope and the patriarch of the greekm oprthodox church combining with muslim leaders to try and stifle criticism of religion. Atbthebstart of ntheb 21 century we are being dragged back to the dark ages by stone age religious beliefs.

posted by anne boelyn

They offer up no Gandhi's, no Martin Luther King's, nothing. Women there are no longer as secularized as they once were, & the wearing of the burkah is more & more common. Women's rights have little interest in your mind, I see. That is not so important to you.

.


Actually they did and do and did but they tend to get killed because they don't live in secular societies.

Thousands in Israel rally against Jewish extremists - World news - Mideast/N. Africa | NBC News

Israel braced for protests against treatment of women after girl, 8, is spat on by Jewish extremists | Daily Mail Online

Shin Bet uncovers Jewish extremist plot to destroy state - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

It's not just islamic religious extremits that hate women you know just have a look at what the christioan right in america is up to you'rte not goung to try and defend them are you
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AnneBoleyn;1495154 wrote: You are so transparent. A country, a government, is 'We the People', whether there is a constitution or not. As for the Palestinians, at 9/11 they cheered in the streets, so my interest in their welfare is lagging behind their stupidity, and yes, it was a stupid act. They have allowed themselves to be directed by Hamas. They offer up no Gandhi's, no Martin Luther King's, nothing. Women there are no longer as secularized as they once were, & the wearing of the burkah is more & more common. Women's rights have little interest in your mind, I see. That is not so important to you.

You are so transparent. Your sole purpose, as far as I can see, is to create in people's minds a connection between Israel and South Africa, as you can't seem to leave them out of it. You may not be an anti-semite, but you are a hypocrite.


Not on the news I watched they didn't. I was struck at the time by the fact that they, for the most part, were as horrified as the rest of us. I'm sure there were Palestinians who did cheer but the ones I saw interviewed on the news at the time certainly didn't.

Holding a very strong position against the actions practised by the Israeli government and in particular, its police and defence forces against Palestinian people, doesn't by any definition make me anti-semitic. So much of what the Israeli government impose on its Arab citizens, through apartheid and extraordinary violence, makes me sick to the stomach but it doesn't make me an anti-semite. I'm not even suggesting that Israel is the only state in the world where this happens. It's because of the whole history of Jews and their subsequent struggles, that it makes it prevalent in our psyche.

As witnessed by this morning's BBC debate on this very subject, it generates so much anger and division, it's hard to see any solution or indeed justice
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

I don't see anyone here as being anti-semitic, never have, just want to make that absolutely clear.
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Post by Snowfire »

Snowfire;1495160 wrote:

As witnessed by this morning's BBC debate on this very subject, it generates so much anger and division, it's hard to see any solution or indeed justice


Mind you I remember saying the same thing about the troubles in N.I. and we got a few heads banged together and got them to see some sense through the fog of religious sectarianism. Well, Mo Mowlem did.
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Post by gmc »

Funnily enough when people protested against apartheid in south africa no one called them anti-white, Nelson mandela was a terrorist that shouldn't be released accprding tio thatcher and reagan. Ben gurion the first president of israel was a terrorist as was golda meier it worked for them so why shouldn't the palestinians give it a shot. If it wasn't for the religious divide and extremists on both sides maybe some kind of compromise could be made.

The same with the civil rights movement in america no one called those protesting anti-white just race traitors and communists and it was religion that was standing in the way of progress then as well.
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Like most Americans, I suspect, I'm just a knee-jerk reactionary to the whole Israeli-Palestinian problem. My thoughts are bland and shallow on the whole subject and what's worse? I know it and I don't care.

To sum up: (And this is sure to inflame Spot)

1. Pogroms against Jews go back thousands of years. People have been hating on them forever, so I feel sorry for them.

2. I like that they got their homeland after what they suffered in the Holocaust. (On later day reflection, though, it probably would have been better if we had given them Alaska.)

3. They are scrappy go-getters in a fight these days, making them a little unpredictable and scary, considering they have nuclear weapons.

4. Palestinians are jerks. They suicide-bombed a children's toy store. They keep lobbing missiles at Israel, therefore they get what they deserve.

And a whole slew of Transitive and Commutative Property views:

5. Iran hates them, and I hate Iran, therefore I love the Jews.

6. I have a Jewish friend. He is cool, therefore Jews are cool.

7. Hitler hated Jews. I hate Hitler, therefore I love the Jews.

8. Jews killed Jesus, but he knew they would and forgave them, so I do too.



Yeah, that's all pretty basic and not-well-thought-out. So what?
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AnneBoleyn;1495163 wrote: I don't see anyone here as being anti-semitic, never have, just want to make that absolutely clear.


As reading this conversation several times wanted to jump in, then decided it better to pass.

Starting with the OP there was just too many angles in one post, I could see no satisfying outcome. I could see where the OP was going (I think), but just too many subjects all at once.
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tude dog;1495180 wrote: As reading this conversation several times wanted to jump in, then decided it better to pass.

Starting with the OP there was just too many angles in one post, I could see no satisfying outcome. I could see where the OP was going (I think), but just too many subjects all at once.


I've been thinking about you, felt this was the way you would react, & wish I followed your suit. This was not a conversation I should have entered into, for the very reasons you stated.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

me=They offer up no Gandhi's, no Martin Luther King's, nothing. Women there are no longer as secularized as they once were, & the wearing of the burkah is more & more common. Women's rights have little interest in your mind, I see. That is not so important to you.

gmc=Actually they did and do and did but they tend to get killed because they don't live in secular societies.



And they are who? Enlighten me, gmc, your link speaks of Israeli's only. Where are the peaceniks amongst the Palestinians?

PS--Oops, should have written this before my answer to Tude. :lips:
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Post by gmc »

AnneBoleyn;1495187 wrote: me=They offer up no Gandhi's, no Martin Luther King's, nothing. Women there are no longer as secularized as they once were, & the wearing of the burkah is more & more common. Women's rights have little interest in your mind, I see. That is not so important to you.

gmc=Actually they did and do and did but they tend to get killed because they don't live in secular societies.



And they are who? Enlighten me, gmc, your link speaks of Israeli's only. Where are the peaceniks amongst the Palestinians?

PS--Oops, should have written this before my answer to Tude. :lips:


Actually when I replied I was thinking of muslims generically rather than palestinaians in particular. In states like saudi arabia, iran there are plenty of those who advocate different solutions but they usually find themselves silenced, as it was in christian europe speaking out and being a free thinker is downright dangerous.

So far as palestine is concerned one thing for sure is that you just hear one side of the dispute.

In palestine hamas won the elections in 2006 ioth israel and the usa refused to recognise the democratic will passing up a chance to actually work with the palestinians in favour of trying to impose a puppet givernment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestini ... tion,_2006

Wikipedia is by no means 100% accurate but it's easy enough to cross reference and check out the details of anything you find hard to credit. sadly the US has a long record of de-stabilising elected givernments when it suits their perceived ends. Something in find many americans don't know about or don't to. Sadly we have been at it for years as well as have everyone else, france russia china the current mess in the middle east is the result of a lot of stirring the pot.

Yitzhak Rabin an israeli prime minister was assassinated in 1995 for daring to try and work out a peaceful solution with the palestinians. It's quite simple really israel and palestine have to work out a way to live together or one of them has to be wiped out.

Palestinian intellectuals demand 'unity' in actions, not words | Middle East Eye

Martin luther king and ghandi and come to that nelson mandela are remembered because they advocated peaceful means but those peaceful means worked because they states they were dealing with had got to the point they were prepared to listen.

Not to worry donald trump will sort them out when he is elected.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

You certainly changed that subject gmc. You can't name any as there are none.
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Post by gmc »

AnneBoleyn;1495191 wrote: You certainly changed that subject gmc. You can't name any as there are none.


The point I was trying to make was we know martin luther king and ghandi because they succeeded but their success was built on the shoulders of others. Without Rosa Parks we might never have heard of Martin Luther King can you name any of the other civil rights activists.



Who is ahe singing about? ?

There are plenty of peaceniks on the palestinian side just as there are on the israeli side can you name any of the israeli ones? They get shouted down or killed before they have a chance - just ordinary people doing what they can. Who are the israelis taking to the streets to protest the west bank settlements? There are thousands of them arguably more than that support them but you don't hear their voices.

As to naming any just because you haven't heard of them doesn't mean they don't exist it's not as though they are going to be interviewed on fox news is it. I did give you some links if you can't be bothered looking at them or refuse to accept that they exist that's up to you.
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Post by tude dog »

gmc;1495207 wrote: The point I was trying to make was we know martin luther king and ghandi because they succeeded but their success was built on the shoulders of others. Without Rosa Parks we might never have heard of Martin Luther King can you name any of the other civil rights activists.


I have a few in mind but never made the noterity of Rosa and I don't intend to get into a big discussion about something you really know nothing about.

gmc;1495207 wrote:

Who is ahe singing about?


Didn't listen past the 10-second mark

gmc;1495207 wrote: There are plenty of peaceniks on the palestinian side just as there are on the israeli side can you name any of the israeli ones?


I'll leave that up to you.

gmc;1495207 wrote: They get shouted down or killed before they have a chance - just ordinary people doing what they can. Who are the israelis taking to the streets to protest the west bank settlements? There are thousands of them arguably more than that support them but you don't hear their voices.


Shouted down or killed, says you.

gmc;1495207 wrote: As to naming any just because you haven't heard of them doesn't mean they don't exist it's not as though they are going to be interviewed on fox news is it. I did give you some links if you can't be bothered looking at them or refuse to accept that they exist that's up to you.


Wanna know of current liberal Israeli news best go to something like HAARETZ, it is the major newspaper in Israel.

I dunno if Anwar Sadat matters but he was murdered after accomplishing the single most important act of peace in the Middle East.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
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Post by gmc »

posted by tude dog

I dunno if Anwar Sadat matters but he was murdered after accomplishing the single most important act of peace in the Middle East.


He does, same thing as rabin assassinated by religious fanatics for daring to suggest peace.

I have a few in mind but never made the noterity of Rosa and I don't intend to get into a big discussion about something you really know nothing about.


Nor I with you. But you get my point I see. That being just because you haven't heard of ( or rather anne hadn't) those on the palestinian side that want peace doesn't mean they don't exist. They only ever go down in history if they succeed and the ordinary people who matter so much get overlooked in the shadow of the "great" for want of a better term.

Shouted down or killed, says you.




Not just me but I'm not out to try and win an argument with you. Bit pointless if you start out with the assumotion they don't exist and refuse to consider the possibility that they do.

Didn't listen past the 10-second mark


Don't blame you it's depressing.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

gmc: That being just because you haven't heard of ( or rather anne hadn't) those on the palestinian side that want peace doesn't mean they don't exist.

Doesn't mean they do exist, either.

gmc: They only ever go down in history if they succeed and the ordinary people who matter so much get overlooked in the shadow of the "great" for want of a better term.

Bullfeathers. In this day & age, w/ Twitter, etc. etc. etc. No PROOF. As far as I see, the ones who want peace move to my neighborhood in Brooklyn, NY, where they co-exist peacefully with their Jewish neighbors.
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Post by gmc »

posted by anne boleyn

Doesn't mean they do exist, either.




Maybe your prejudice is stopping you seeing them?

Bullfeathers. In this day & age, w/ Twitter, etc. etc. etc. No PROOF. As far as I see, the ones who want peace move to my neighborhood in Brooklyn, NY, where they co-exist peacefully with their Jewish neighbors.


So they do exist then. Have you ever asked them why they had to leave home?
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Post by FourPart »

It also bears asking why anti-semitism appears to be the nouveau evil, whilst anti-islamism seems to be socially acceptable - almost to the point of being required.
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Post by gmc »

It's newspeak it's a way of changing the topic away from the rights or wrongs of israel occupying palestine. Anti-islamism I would dispute is socially acceptable seems to me you can't criticise islamic state without someone popping up and sayiong they are not real muslims and changing the discussion.

It's like don't mention the spanish inquisition or the spanish armada in case someone accuses you of being anti-catholic.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

gmc--Maybe your prejudice is stopping you seeing them?

Maybe it is YOU who is prejudiced.

gmc--So they do exist then. Have you ever asked them why they had to leave home?

To live in peace and make money, like every other immigrant to the United States.
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Post by FourPart »

AnneBoleyn;1495344 wrote: To live in peace and make money, like every other immigrant to the United States.


That's "The American Way", is it not?

“Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:

I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”


The welcoming words which now lives by a new credo of "I'm all right Jack. Pull up the drawbridge".
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Post by gmc »

AnneBoleyn;1495344 wrote: gmc--Maybe your prejudice is stopping you seeing them?

Maybe it is YOU who is prejudiced.

gmc--So they do exist then. Have you ever asked them why they had to leave home?

To live in peace and make money, like every other immigrant to the United States.


Good job they got in before trump bans all muslims from entering. You still dodging the question as to why they can't live in peace in theor own country.

AnneBoleyn;1495344 wrote: gmc--Maybe your prejudice is stopping you seeing them?

Maybe it is YOU who is prejudiced.


Really good argument that.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

gmc;1495395 wrote: Good job they got in before trump bans all muslims from entering. You still dodging the question as to why they can't live in peace in theor own country.



Really good argument that.


1. Not dodging, don't know why. It is a common thing today, never give up & keep a war going.

2. As good as your argument, gmc. You see, you said "Maybe" which I repeated in the opposite. Maybe is not a fact, maybe is speculation. So, like you, I am speculating. Trump knows he can't do what he is bleating about, btw; a President is not in control of immigration or tourist visas, which is how most people enter.
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Post by gmc »

AnneBoleyn;1495399 wrote: [QUOTE=gmc;1495395]Good job they got in before trump bans all muslims from entering. You still dodging the question as to why they can't live in peace in theor own country.




1. Not dodging, don't know why. It is a common thing today, never give up & keep a war going.

2. As good as your argument, gmc. You see, you said "Maybe" which I repeated in the opposite. Maybe is not a fact, maybe is speculation. So, like you, I am speculating. Trump knows he can't do what he is bleating about, btw; a President is not in control of immigration or tourist visas, which is how most people enter.


you only end a war when one side is totally defeated or both sides start to talk to each other. In Northern Ireland you have a generation that doesn't remember the troubles but the division is kept alive by sperate schools and religious bigots but it's like palestine in that maybe if you can get away from the religious hatred maybe you can talk to each other.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

I only wish we could rid ourselves of religious hatred, or any hatred for that matter.
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Post by gmc »

It's funny no one ever condemns the one organisation that caused it all when banging on about anti-semitism. They now say it's wrong to blame all jews - just some of them and the blame doesn't pass to those living today. The things people kill each other over.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

I might be sorry I ask, but what organisation are you being coy not to name?
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Post by gmc »

AnneBoleyn;1495503 wrote: I might be sorry I ask, but what organisation are you being coy not to name?


The one true church the catholic church took them till the 1960's to drop blaming the jews for the death of christ. The jews losing their homeland was part of their punishment. The protestants weren't much better it should be said but it was the catholic church that set the tone when they were the only game in town. I'm coy because I usually get accused of being anti-catholic but it's a fact anyone with a basic grasp of history should be aware of.
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Post by FourPart »

If he existed at all, it would have been the Romans that killed him, not the Jews.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

gmc;1495536 wrote: The one true church the catholic church took them till the 1960's to drop blaming the jews for the death of christ. The jews losing their homeland was part of their punishment. The protestants weren't much better it should be said but it was the catholic church that set the tone when they were the only game in town. I'm coy because I usually get accused of being anti-catholic but it's a fact anyone with a basic grasp of history should be aware of.


The Romans dispersed the Jews from Israel, not the Catholic Church!
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Post by gmc »

AnneBoleyn;1495549 wrote: The Romans dispersed the Jews from Israel, not the Catholic Church!


I didn't say the roman catholic church did it where did you get that from? By the time they were writing the bible it had already happened the dispersal of the jews and the destruction of the temple was interpreted as their punishment for killing jesus. Now some christians interpret it such that the jews -must all return to israel for the end times to happen.

Are you seriously saying you don't know the origins of anti-semitism? Are you going to pretend the catholic church had nothing to do with it - By the way there is big clue in the term Roman Catholic.

Pope Exonerates Jews for Death of Jesus - Jewish World - Haaretz - Israel News Haaretz.com

Pope Benedict XVI has made a sweeping exoneration of the Jewish people for the death of Jesus Christ in a new book, tackling one of the most controversial issues in Christianity.

In 'Jesus of Nazareth' excerpts released Wednesday, Benedict uses a biblical and theological analysis to explain why it is not true that the Jewish people as a whole were responsible for Jesus' death.

read more: Pope Exonerates Jews for Death of Jesus - Jewish World - Haaretz - Israel News Haaretz.com






He noted that the Vatican issued its most authoritative document on the issue in 1965, Nostra Aetate, which revolutionized the Catholic Church's relations with Jews by saying Christ's death could not be attributed to Jews as a whole at the time or today.

read more: Pope Exonerates Jews for Death of Jesus - Jewish World - Haaretz - Israel News Haaretz.com


Only twenty years after the end of ww2.

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