When Does Human Life Begin?

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Accountable
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When Does Human Life Begin?

Post by Accountable »

FlatBlob;467394 wrote: I don't really understand?
I know. That's my point. People that claim to be pro-choice never seem to consider the responsibility that comes with making the choice to have sex. They only embrace the choice of avoiding responsibility for the consequences of that choice. A small minority of them even disdain those who choose to give the child their choice created to adoptive parents.



Sad, huh?
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Post by FlatBlob »

I edited my post awhile ago.

FlatBlob;467394 wrote: I don't really understand?

Oh. I understand. but from a male metaphor, imagine you contacted a testicular cancer of some kind so they sliced em' (eeeergh!) without your agreement (again: Gaaaah!) I realize the bacwardsness of that, but think of it.
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Post by weber »

FlatBlob;467401 wrote: And this is adderssed in my post.


I don't think so. Maybe in your mind.
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Post by FlatBlob »

weber;467408 wrote: I don't think so. Maybe in your mind.


NM. You obviously can't tell the diff between a fly and a whale.

What there's a diff?
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Post by Accountable »

FlatBlob;467407 wrote: I edited my post awhile ago.
With something having nothing to do with the subject. Hm.



Are you going to address my post (#151) or are you just the sharp stick patrol?
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Post by FlatBlob »

Accountable;467412 wrote: With something having nothing to do with the subject. Hm.



Are you going to address my post (#151) or are you just the sharp stick patrol?


I think I agree with you, It kinda confuses me. I'm a souless-scienceloving-liberal-democrat-againstwar-pastafarian-aka-iworshiptheflyingspagshetimonster-gayrightsactivist. ok?

Sharp stick patrol?
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Post by weber »

FlatBlob;467409 wrote: NM. You obviously can't tell the diff between a fly and a whale.

What there's a diff?


They're both alive and I am sure that I have no idea what brought that on. No reply necessary. I can do without.
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Post by FlatBlob »

weber;467418 wrote: They're both alive and I am sure that I have no idea what brought that on. No reply necessary. I can do without.


I'm gonna reply anyway -_-

Whale-comes from an egg and sperm. Same with a fly (I think) :wah:
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Post by weber »

FlatBlob;467419 wrote: I'm gonna reply anyway -_-

Whale-comes from an egg and sperm. Same with a fly (I think) :wah:


So what. Human beings are alike to other animals in different ways also. Does that mean we can't be whatever that likeness is. Oh my but we would cease to exist. We have similarities to numbers of other mammals and animals.

If the egg of a human being and the sperm of a human being united are not the beginning of human life which seems to be what you believe, then there is no point at which human life begins because two or more human beings would never be able to agree. It begins at the beginning and we have no choice as to when human life begins. We might think we do so we can abort without thought and whatever else we want but it is just an excuse. We are not smart enough to know. It is already preset.
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Post by Accountable »

FlatBlob;467414 wrote: I think I agree with you, It kinda confuses me. I'm a souless-scienceloving-liberal-democrat-againstwar-pastafarian-aka-iworshiptheflyingspagshetimonster-gayrightsactivist. ok?
Sorry. Didn't mean to take you in too deep.
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Post by weber »

Where'd he go. Gotta nab 'im.:D
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Post by twizzel »

Okie;467341 wrote: Yes. If a cell is life, then every time you bath or scrub then you are killing many lives. Washing them down the drain. I agree life begins when a fetus has brain waves. I dont entirely agree that it has to have noral values. There are many people in institutions that have damage to their brain and cannot know what moral values are yet they are alive and I have to say they are human. If I ever degenerate into a person who has no sense of what is going on around me and it dont look like I ever will then I hope they dont let me stay alive or worse plug my body into machines to keep it alive when I am not really there. I dont want the religious right to get the laws changed so my family does not have the final say. I can tell my family what I want and they will see to it.


Cells on your skin which you can wash off are already dead, yet every living cell has all the information to grown into a full body under the right conditions. Who is to say a single cell does not have feelings albiet of a primitive kind who is to say it does not feel pain or get ill?
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Post by Okie »

twizzel;467497 wrote: Cells on your skin which you can wash off are already dead, yet every living cell has all the information to grown into a full body under the right conditions. Who is to say a single cell does not have feelings albiet of a primitive kind who is to say it does not feel pain or get ill?


Yeah, there is a lot we dont know. I read once we are bombarded daily by some sort of tiny particles from the sun that go completely through the Earth and of course through people too as do Xrays. I would guess that in some cases these particles have the ability to alter your cells. Kill the DNA or stimulate it. I feel that is how mutations occur. They know that men who work around Xrays very long can have reproduction problems. I assume that would go for women too.

Anyway yes, I do realize that cells that wash off ones skin are already dead. I just dont feel that human life is really started yet at the point the first cell splits. I think that if a couple of kids or adults for that matter, get overly passionate and do not have protection and they go ahead with sex, the woman should not have to pay the price of carrying a baby to term and not wanting to have a child all that time. She would not be the ideal carrier as far as healthy habits all during that time and then after she had it if she still did not want it then she would have to give it away or abandon it or God forbid kill it as has been done. A simple morning after pill would be the right way to go.
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Post by Lulu2 »

Exactly...for whatever reasons, if a woman is unwilling to continue a pregnancy, she deserves the right to terminate it.

The issue of "when life begins" isn't nearly as appropriate as the one of forcing an unwanted pregnancy on someone.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by weber »

Okie;467640 wrote: Yeah, there is a lot we dont know. I read once we are bombarded daily by some sort of tiny particles from the sun that go completely through the Earth and of course through people too as do Xrays. I would guess that in some cases these particles have the ability to alter your cells. Kill the DNA or stimulate it. I feel that is how mutations occur. They know that men who work around Xrays very long can have reproduction problems. I assume that would go for women too.

Anyway yes, I do realize that cells that wash off ones skin are already dead. I just dont feel that human life is really started yet at the point the first cell splits. I think that if a couple of kids or adults for that matter, get overly passionate and do not have protection and they go ahead with sex, the woman should not have to pay the price of carrying a baby to term and not wanting to have a child all that time. She would not be the ideal carrier as far as healthy habits all during that time and then after she had it if she still did not want it then she would have to give it away or abandon it or God forbid kill it as has been done. A simple morning after pill would be the right way to go.


What I don't understand is how a discussion on when human life begins turns into a diatribe on women being forced to have babies, which they aren't and never were and never will be, All we were discussing was when life begins. This side lining into women supposedly being forced into having children is just avoiding discussing the issue at hand.
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Post by weber »

It took a while, but now I get it. When does human life begin comes under the heading of abortion which I hadn't noticed. I have in no way been realizing that I was discussion abortion.....I thought I was discussing when human life began. So I step out of this discussion. I would discuss abortion in an entirely different way.
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Post by Okie »

weber;467758 wrote: What I don't understand is how a discussion on when human life begins turns into a diatribe on women being forced to have babies, which they aren't and never were and never will be, All we were discussing was when life begins. This side lining into women supposedly being forced into having children is just avoiding discussing the issue at hand.


Okay, I give up too. I will not speak on this any more. I cannot isolate the two issues.
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Post by Accountable »

I think they're intertwined. How can you justify abortion if the fetus is alive? If it's not, then when is it?



Then the deeper question: should the law reflect the answers to those questions or not? Some would say it already does.



See, I truly believe that most people that think they are on opposite sides of the abortion issue, are actually on opposite sides of the when-life-begins issue. Almost everybody will agree it's ridiculous to suggest a woman be allowed to kill an infant. Those same people will agree that it's ridiculous to prohibit a woman from having a surgery if she wants it, necessary or elective.



That's where I see this conversation - in that gray area where those two issues collide - or overlap.
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Post by weber »

Okie;467852 wrote: Okay, I give up too. I will not speak on this any more. I cannot isolate the two issues.


That's not fair Okie.....to give up because I do.

For me the two issues are separate because I am from Canada and abortion here is not only legal but even a pregnant child can get an abortion without her parents' consent.(that may have changed recently but I am not sure)

So obviously I have to take a different direction. For me, there is no question that human life begins at conception. At conception or shortly after, I knew that I was pregnant and I immediately began making plans for my baby....not my fetus...not my cell.....my baby. But I was never raped, my life was never in danger, but indeed at one period of time, I felt if I got pregnant, I was not totally sure whether or not I would abort. I never had to make the choice and I can only hope that I would not have chosen abortion because at that time I did not know the dangers of abortion.

So I understand that at certain times, circumstances, the choice has to be from the one who will take good care of the baby or abuse the baby. I would never carry a baby to give away to possibly be abused by somebody else.

So am I saying it is okay to end a life. I go with Accountable....there is a gray area that causes a lot of problems. I hope I would never end a life that began in me but I have never had the choice to make so I only 'hope' that I wouldn't end a life. If I had been raped, in a tortured state I might not see as clearly....who knows.
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Post by Okie »

weber;467890 wrote: That's not fair Okie.....to give up because I do.

For me the two issues are separate because I am from Canada and abortion here is not only legal but even a pregnant child can get an abortion without her parents' consent.(that may have changed recently but I am not sure)

So obviously I have to take a different direction. For me, there is no question that human life begins at conception. At conception or shortly after, I knew that I was pregnant and I immediately began making plans for my baby....not my fetus...not my cell.....my baby. But I was never raped, my life was never in danger, but indeed at one period of time, I felt if I got pregnant, I was not totally sure whether or not I would abort. I never had to make the choice and I can only hope that I would not have chosen abortion because at that time I did not know the dangers of abortion.

So I understand that at certain times, circumstances, the choice has to be from the one who will take good care of the baby or abuse the baby. I would never carry a baby to give away to possibly be abused by somebody else.

So am I saying it is okay to end a life. I go with Accountable....there is a gray area that causes a lot of problems. I hope I would never end a life that began in me but I have never had the choice to make so I only 'hope' that I wouldn't end a life. If I had been raped, in a tortured state I might not see as clearly....who knows.


Every time I see a news item showing a sweet little child whose mom was not married and trying to raise a baby leaving it with other people while she tries to earn a living or whatever, then the boyfriend or other beats the child to death, I weep. I feel it is far more humane for a girl to end it before the child is born if she is poor or destitute and no hopes of things getting better. But I do not think she should wait very long. That is why I think the morning after pill is the right thing to do. Not all pharmacys are going to carry the pill and I have no idea what they cost but I hope it is possible for every girl to have a chance to stop it after she has had unprotected sex.
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Post by Accountable »

Okie;467895 wrote: Every time I see a news item showing a sweet little child whose mom was not married and trying to raise a baby leaving it with other people while she tries to earn a living or whatever, then the boyfriend or other beats the child to death, I weep. I feel it is far more humane for a girl to end it before the child is born if she is poor or destitute and no hopes of things getting better. But I do not think she should wait very long. That is why I think the morning after pill is the right thing to do. Not all pharmacys are going to carry the pill and I have no idea what they cost but I hope it is possible for every girl to have a chance to stop it after she has had unprotected sex.
I can't follow that at all. I don't understand the hopelessness that floods from a post like this.
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Post by weber »

Okie;467895 wrote: Every time I see a news item showing a sweet little child whose mom was not married and trying to raise a baby leaving it with other people while she tries to earn a living or whatever, then the boyfriend or other beats the child to death, I weep. I feel it is far more humane for a girl to end it before the child is born if she is poor or destitute and no hopes of things getting better. But I do not think she should wait very long. That is why I think the morning after pill is the right thing to do. Not all pharmacys are going to carry the pill and I have no idea what they cost but I hope it is possible for every girl to have a chance to stop it after she has had unprotected sex.


I agree with what you say in the beginning Okie. Unfortunately, the morning after pill allows for all kinds of promiscuous sexual behavior by all females who wish, children, prostitutes, any woman to just end life for no reason at all other than to be able to "have sex" anytime, any way and then just flush away the responsibility that goes with getting pregnant.

I agree that there are times when early abortion is perhaps justified but I just can't see the part where any woman at any time, for any reason at all can just "go get an abortion" or eat a pill to do it. Getting pregnant is a responsibility not to be just wiped out like erasing a blackboard.

Just my opinion.
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Post by Okie »

Accountable;467898 wrote: I can't follow that at all. I don't understand the hopelessness that floods from a post like this.


Yeah, it looks like I was all over the board. I gotta get away from this for a while.
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Post by weber »

Accountable;467898 wrote: I can't follow that at all. I don't understand the hopelessness that floods from a post like this.


Helplessness maybe but I don't see hopelessness or I would not be able to read my paper every day. I feel totally helpless to do something for the many victims of all manner of injustice, but not hopeless. There is always hope.
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Post by weber »

Okie;467930 wrote: Yeah, it looks like I was all over the board. I gotta get away from this for a while.


I thought you were doing fine Okie. Don't go away.
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Post by ChristinaAguilera_FANatic »

This may seem a lil off, buuuuut only a few weeks ago there was a story in the UK about a baby who was born the size of a pen just amazing how babies grow, and i mean it was TINY, it kinda made me fill up :-1

I think thy were gonna tamper with the amount of weeks or whatever tht a woman can abort the pregnancy :-2

I aint too clued up on Abortion etc but i thought tht may be worth mentioning :cool:
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Post by twizzel »

ChristinaAguilera_FANatic;565138 wrote: This may seem a lil off, buuuuut only a few weeks ago there was a story in the UK about a baby who was born the size of a pen just amazing how babies grow, and i mean it was TINY, it kinda made me fill up :-1

I think thy were gonna tamper with the amount of weeks or whatever tht a woman can abort the pregnancy :-2

I aint too clued up on Abortion etc but i thought tht may be worth mentioning :cool:
Absolutely with advances in medical science baby's are going to be viable from much earlier. After all if they can make a baby in a test tube they are probably viable from conception.
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Post by ChristinaAguilera_FANatic »

yeahh totally agree with ya :)

Medical advances are amazing :-4
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Post by YZGI »

When does human life begin?



When they can wipe their own arse. you aint human till you can do this.:cool:
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Post by RedGlitter »

weber;467901 wrote: I agree with what you say in the beginning Okie. Unfortunately, the morning after pill allows for all kinds of promiscuous sexual behavior by all females who wish, children, prostitutes, any woman to just end life for no reason at all other than to be able to "have sex" anytime, any way and then just flush away the responsibility that goes with getting pregnant.

I agree that there are times when early abortion is perhaps justified but I just can't see the part where any woman at any time, for any reason at all can just "go get an abortion" or eat a pill to do it. Getting pregnant is a responsibility not to be just wiped out like erasing a blackboard.

Just my opinion.


This is such an overfed wives tale and it deserves to die a quick death. Just how many partners make one promiscuous anyway? I cannot abide such ignorance as what it expressed in this post.
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Post by RedGlitter »

I'm late to this page but for what it's worth I understood Okie's point just fine. Not all poor people brig kids into domestic violence situations or destitution but aside from that, I understand what you meant.

I want this pill available for anyone who wants or needs to use it. Weber's notion of play and pay doesn't cut it. NO child should ever be brought into this world as a negative consequence of its parents' actions!! A child is not a punishment.
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Post by RedGlitter »

Far Rider;565519 wrote: I stand and assert that every sperm that penetrates the eggs deserves a full chance at life.

No matter any of the most horrible or terrible circumstances that occur in that encounter.

Why should the most beautiful thing be destroyed when something that horrible occurs?

I know a man that lived till his late 30's believing his mother and father were really his mother and father, after his mother passed away his father handed him a letter from his mother explaining her pain and that he was born as a product of the rape she endured.

This man was a good man who worked hard, loved his wife and was raising his kids to be good members of society.

Should he have been aborted and never given the chance to live his life?
WOW. I am stunned. Absolutely a rape fetus should be aborted 100% of the time. NO woman should ever be made to feel as if sh ehas to carry such detritus. Ever. Do you really think that Far? What if we're talking about your daughter? Or your sister? I should hope you would not expect them to carry to term a baby sired by a monster. All rapists are monsters. Period. I am upset and I will leave but I shall return later.
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Post by guppy »

i believe a woman has the right to choose....



and i dont see the point in that woman telling her son how he was conceived.....that had to mess with his mind and heart.....
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Post by RedGlitter »

Far Rider;566531 wrote: Yes I do really think this is the best case.

First off I think rapists should be tried and sentenced to death. Second, why would you punish the innocent life for something the biological father did? You had it right when you said the rapist is the monstor, but the child is not.

Yes ma'm even if we're talking of my daughter or my wife, or my mother. Innocent is innocent no matter what the relation.


I am truly sorry to know you hold such an opinion Far. You may of course, but know that I cannot respect it at all.

It's not about punishing a yet unborn child. It is about rubbing the mother's face into what happened to her every stinking time she looks at that kid. It is a life that NEVER should have happened. Even God makes mistakes. Do you stop to think of how that person will feel knowing he or she was the result of hate and atrocity?

I also disagree with the notion od promiscuity and that it seem to be only the woman who gets called on it. That's only because men can't yet get pregnant. If they could, all these notions would change in a heartbeat.

I do agree with you that rapists should be killed but I would prefer it done at the hands or the kin of the victim.
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Post by gadget »

I'm new to this post and at this moment in time I haven't read all the replies.

But I have to say that I believe that 'physical life' begins at the point when the 'spirit' chooses the body to be born into!

At the time the sperm enters the egg - or before? :-6
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Post by Adam Zapple »

RedGlitter;565536 wrote: Absolutely a rape fetus should be aborted 100% of the time.


So a woman should have no choice or say so in the matter?
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Post by Adam Zapple »

RedGlitter;566567 wrote: Do you stop to think of how that person will feel knowing he or she was the result of hate and atrocity?


My brother-in-law is the product of date rape. I never posed the question to him in your exact words but I'm quite sure he is extremely happy to be alive. In fact, the knowledge of his conception led him into a law enforcement career. He is a normal, well-adjusted contributor to society and a great guy to boot. You could say that one horrible act several decads ago has produced a protector (for you and me) against the very monster that created him. Over all, that's a net benefit to society.
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Post by AnnaE »

Far Rider;565519 wrote: I stand and assert that every sperm that penetrates the eggs deserves a full chance at life.

No matter any of the most horrible or terrible circumstances that occur in that encounter.

Why should the most beautiful thing be destroyed when something that horrible occurs?

I know a man that lived till his late 30's believing his mother and father were really his mother and father, after his mother passed away his father handed him a letter from his mother explaining her pain and that he was born as a product of the rape she endured.

This man was a good man who worked hard, loved his wife and was raising his kids to be good members of society.

Should he have been aborted and never given the chance to live his life?


Do you honestly think that the child of a rapist can live with knowing that he/she was in fact conceived that way? Even adopted children often goes through a hard time sometimes in their lives, how the hell would a child or adult be able to deal with the fact that he/she is the spawn of a rapist?

And you obviously have no idea what a raped woman goes through.

It's not only about being "given the chance to live his/her life", the main concern here is, what kind of life would that be?
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Post by Carl44 »

AnnaE;566872 wrote: Do you honestly think that the child of a rapist can live with knowing that he/she was in fact conceived that way? Even adopted children often goes through a hard time sometimes in their lives, how the hell would a child or adult be able to deal with the fact that he/she is the spawn of a rapist?



And you obviously have no idea what a raped woman goes through.



It's not only about being "given the chance to live his/her life", the main concern here is, what kind of life would that be?




are you saying that a child of a rapist has no right to live ...:(
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Post by crazygal »

AnnaE;566872 wrote: Do you honestly think that the child of a rapist can live with knowing that he/she was in fact conceived that way? Even adopted children often goes through a hard time sometimes in their lives, how the hell would a child or adult be able to deal with the fact that he/she is the spawn of a rapist?

And you obviously have no idea what a raped woman goes through.

It's not only about being "given the chance to live his/her life", the main concern here is, what kind of life would that be?


I agree. I am totally anti-abortion but think that every child has the right to know where they came from and if I were raped, I would no way keep that child, even though terminating would break my heart as it wasn't the child's fault. The thought of my being the result of a rape would affect my life forever I think.
Carl44
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When Does Human Life Begin?

Post by Carl44 »

crazygal;566932 wrote: I agree. I am totally anti-abortion but think that every child has the right to know where they came from and if I were raped, I would no way keep that child, even though terminating would break my heart as it wasn't the child's fault. The thought of my being the result of a rape would affect my life forever I think.




well i guess i'm lucky to be here at all then
RedGlitter
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When Does Human Life Begin?

Post by RedGlitter »

Adam Zapple;566631 wrote: So a woman should have no choice or say so in the matter?
If she wants to raise it that's fine. I don't know many who would. I wouldn't respect her for it and I don't think any woman should be FORCED by others to carry a baby concieved by rape.

I feel so strongly about rape that I know if I were to become pregnant that way, if I couldn't get an abortion, I would kill myself. Anything but put myself through that. Anything.



I am stepping out of this conversation because I feel I'm insulting my friend. My friend's feelings are way more important that my personal diatribe on this issue. I'm sorry Jimbo. I meant no harm. :( I'll meet you in happier threads.
Carl44
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Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:23 am

When Does Human Life Begin?

Post by Carl44 »

RedGlitter;567034 wrote: If she wants to raise it that's fine. I don't know many who would. I wouldn't respect her for it and I don't think any woman should be FORCED by others to carry a baby concieved by rape.



I feel so strongly about rape that I know if I were to become pregnant that way, if I couldn't get an abortion, I would kill myself. Anything but put myself through that. Anything.





I am stepping out of this conversation because I feel I'm insulting my friend. My friend's feelings are way more important that my personal diatribe on this issue. I'm sorry Jimbo. I meant no harm. :( I'll meet you in happier threads.


look foreward to it red:-6
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crazygal
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When Does Human Life Begin?

Post by crazygal »

Sorry Jimbo, I didn't know about you. I was just being honest, myself I couldn't do it but at least you know how wanted you were.

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