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Bryn Mawr
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Erik;1201403 wrote: I would want the baby to be treated the same as any other deformed human being that was in pain.


And that is?
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Post by Victoria »

Erik;1201361 wrote: And to the girls who complain about getting pregnant after having consensual sex, all I have to say is this; Life is full of choices and consequences, if you don’t want to get pregnant keep your legs together. While the guy is responsible as well, you are the one who has to carry the baby and you are the one who can’t walk away while the guy can choose to simply drop off the radar. It may be unfair, but it’s the facts, it happens every day and it’s in your best interest to remember that when you go to bed with someone.

When you have sex (even protected sex) you are knowingly gambling with the possibility of getting Pregnant for the sake of physical gratification. And getting an Abortion because of this kind of activity is a crime equal to murder.


This is the kind of male reaction that makes my blood boil going round telling women what they can and cant do just who the hell do you think you are? you can never ever be in this position so how dare you judge.

You have no idea of the trauma caused to a woman when raped or forced to have sex but then you would force her to have the resulting child that is in-humane.

Oh and please dont tell me you know women who have been raped and they cope because the fact is until it has happened to you you dont know you cant even begin to imagine the horror, the shadow that blots your life day after day..To then be force to carry the result of that monster. unspeakable.

Oh and by the way how do you later explain to the kid 'well your daddy was a sick SOB who held a knife to mummies throat and forced himself inside her' Thats charming news for the kid to live with.

Erik go away and when you have actually experienced any of the things these women go through come back and have another go because honestly dear you are talking out of your ar**.

Now Im gonna stop before I get banned,:-5:-5:-5:-5:-5:-5:-5:-5:-5:-5:-5:-5:-5
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Post by Accountable »

The part you highlighted wasn't teling women what they can and can't do; it was warning about real danger, such as look out for snakes when walking in tall grass. You can still walk in the grass, just be aware that there are very real dangers.



Rather than forcing a woman to "have the resulting child" can't we at least acknowledge that choosing to bring this life into the world can make a positive result so grand as to nearly balance the negative? Abortion would be just adding another evil to the list. The lady isn't forced to have the child, nor is she forced to raise him/her. There's always adoption. But at least granting life will allow the child a chance at having a positive impact on the world.



I think if you take a breath and imagine a beautiful baby in your arms, watching it grow and toddle and speak, it would be fairly easy to explain to your child how a terrible thing happened to Mommy, but the result was this beautiful child full of love ... so much good coming from so much evil, like a glorious phoenix coming from the destructive fire.
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Post by Erik »

Victoria;1201480 wrote: This is the kind of male reaction that makes my blood boil going round telling women what they can and cant do just who the hell do you think you are? you can never ever be in this position so how dare you judge.

You have no idea of the trauma caused to a woman when raped or forced to have sex but then you would force her to have the resulting child that is in-humane.

Oh and please dont tell me you know women who have been raped and they cope because the fact is until it has happened to you you dont know you cant even begin to imagine the horror, the shadow that blots your life day after day..To then be force to carry the result of that monster. unspeakable.

Oh and by the way how do you later explain to the kid 'well your daddy was a sick SOB who held a knife to mummies throat and forced himself inside her' Thats charming news for the kid to live with.

Erik go away and when you have actually experienced any of the things these women go through come back and have another go because honestly dear you are talking out of your ar**.

Now Im gonna stop before I get banned,:-5:-5:-5:-5:-5:-5:-5:-5:-5:-5:-5:-5:-5


I can’t even begin to imagine the horrors of being raped and impregnated, and I never pretended to. And I will admit, if I were a woman who was raped and impregnated by some monster the first thing I would want to do is get an abortion. I wouldn’t want anything in my life that reminded me of what happened and the thought of carrying his baby might be enough to drive me insane.

In terms of Right and Wrong;

The hard fact remains that underneath all the horror and pain an innocent baby has been created who deserves a chance at life as much as the rest of us. Therefore, killing the unwanted baby is a crime worse than the rape that created him/her.

I won’t judge a woman for getting an Abortion as the result of being raped. I can’t, because I don’t know if I would have the strength to keep the child if I were in her shoes. However, I will not stand here and pretend that Abortion is the right thing to do just to make them feel better.

The only ones I feel angry towards are the ones who get abortions because of casual sex.

In my perfect world, all forms of abortion would be made illegal. Any doctor who performed one would lose their right to practice medicine and get charged with premeditated murder. The moms who wanted it done (along with anybody else who encouraged her or even knew about her plan to get one) would be dealt with on a case by case basis and punished accordingly depending on the circumstances.

The only exception would be when a doctor can prove that carrying a baby to term would kill the mother, and in that case it would be the mother’s choice.

In addition, the crime of Rape would be elevated to the crime of Murder, punishable the same. An impregnated rape victim would receive all the counseling, medical care and resources she needs to carry the baby to term, deal with the trauma of the rape and deliver a healthy baby. When the baby was born, she could then decide whether or not to put the baby up for adoption.
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Post by Victoria »

[QUOTE=Erik;1201621]

The hard fact remains that underneath all the horror and pain an innocent baby has been created who deserves a chance at life as much as the rest of us. Therefore, killing the unwanted baby is a crime worse than the rape that created him/her.

I won’t judge a woman for getting an Abortion as the result of being raped. I can’t, because I don’t know if I would have the strength to keep the child if I were in her shoes. However, I will not stand here and pretend that Abortion is the right thing to do just to make them feel better.



So go on what would you suggest? Power of thought ie maybe it will just go away?
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Post by gmc »

posted by accountable

Rather than forcing a woman to "have the resulting child" can't we at least acknowledge that choosing to bring this life into the world can make a positive result so grand as to nearly balance the negative? Abortion would be just adding another evil to the list. The lady isn't forced to have the child, nor is she forced to raise him/her. There's always adoption. But at least granting life will allow the child a chance at having a positive impact on the world.


If she's not allowed to have an abortion then surely she is being forced to have the child whether she wants to or not.
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Post by Erik »

Victoria;1201628 wrote: [QUOTE=Erik;1201621]

The hard fact remains that underneath all the horror and pain an innocent baby has been created who deserves a chance at life as much as the rest of us. Therefore, killing the unwanted baby is a crime worse than the rape that created him/her.

I won’t judge a woman for getting an Abortion as the result of being raped. I can’t, because I don’t know if I would have the strength to keep the child if I were in her shoes. However, I will not stand here and pretend that Abortion is the right thing to do just to make them feel better.



So go on what would you suggest? Power of thought ie maybe it will just go away?


I’m not suggesting anything, I’m saying that the right thing to do is keep the baby even if he/she is the product of rape. If after giving birth, you still don’t want the baby because of the rape then put him/her up for adoption.

In addition, I was acknowledging how difficult I imagine it would be to keep the baby and find it hard to judge a woman who chooses to get an abortion under these circumstances.

So, to be perfectly blunt; A woman who gets pregnant from rape should not have the right to get an Abortion. It’s wrong to kill an unborn child because of someone else’s actions. But Abortion is legal and therefore acceptable to a large portion of society, therefore, when dealing with a rape pregnancy, I can’t blame women who get an abortion because I don’t know if I would have the strength to chose any different, even though its the wrong thing to do.
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Post by Erik »

Bryn Mawr;1201407 wrote: And that is?


Keep the baby out of pain as much as possible and do everything medically possible to save and prolong the baby’s life.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Erik;1201650 wrote: Keep the baby out of pain as much as possible and do everything medically possible to save and prolong the baby’s life.


Maybe the mother of the foetus, before it becomes a baby, makes the decision, with the advice of the medical profession, that the only way of keeping the baby out of pain as much as possible is to terminate it.

There are cases where the body will make the decision and spontainiously abort.

There are cases where the body refuses to abort and both mother and baby die.

There is a middle position where intervention is necessary - it is neither black nor white and must be taken on a case by case basis.

In the same way that it is considered cruel and inhuman to prolong the suffering of a terminally ill animal or adult, it can be cruel and inhuman to prolong the suffering of a terminally ill foetus or baby.
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Post by Erik »

Bryn Mawr;1201651 wrote: In the same way that it is considered cruel and inhuman to prolong the suffering of a terminally ill animal or adult, it can be cruel and inhuman to prolong the suffering of a terminally ill foetus or baby.


Exactly, a suffering unborn child should be treated the same as any other person who lays suffering and dieing.
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Post by Accountable »

gmc;1201646 wrote: posted by accountable





If she's not allowed to have an abortion then surely she is being forced to have the child whether she wants to or not.True. The law currently allows abortion. Drop the straw. ;)
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Post by Victoria »

Erik you really are the limit you say you dont judge yet say a woman who is raped should not have the right to abortion.

For the record I am not pro abortion but understand that it is sometimes the lesser of to evils. You dont care about the suffering of the woman so long as that baby lives

You wrap this up in an anti abortion save the child packinging yet all I see is hateful controlling misogynistic claptrap. Despite your words you really have no respect for women at all.

Reading your hateful posts about women whoreing around ( with whom? what are the men then innocent bystanders?) makes me feel sick to my stomach.

I wouldnt allow you to set foot in my home I wouldnt sit at the table with you in a bar and I wouldnt tolerate that kind of small mindedness in my workplace.

So im not going to let you in via my PC either
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Post by gmc »

Accountable;1201710 wrote: True. The law currently allows abortion. Drop the straw. ;)


OK I've re-read what you wrote and perhaps I misunderstood what you meant. I think it must be the strange accent you have:sneaky:
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Post by Accountable »

gmc;1201753 wrote: OK I've re-read what you wrote and perhaps I misunderstood what you meant. I think it must be the strange accent you have:sneaky:
:wah:
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Post by Accountable »

Victoria;1201727 wrote: Erik you really are the limit you say you dont judge yet say a woman who is raped should not have the right to abortion.

For the record I am not pro abortion but understand that it is sometimes the lesser of to evils. You dont care about the suffering of the woman so long as that baby lives



You wrap this up in an anti abortion save the child packinging yet all I see is hateful controlling misogynistic claptrap. Despite your words you really have no respect for women at all.

Reading your hateful posts about women whoreing around ( with whom? what are the men then innocent bystanders?) makes me feel sick to my stomach.

I wouldnt allow you to set foot in my home I wouldnt sit at the table with you in a bar and I wouldnt tolerate that kind of small mindedness in my workplace.

So im not going to let you in via my PC either
Victoria, take a breath for a moment and consider how Erik has toned down his rhetoric. As he continued to consider his position, it became more personal to him. No, he didn't change his mind completely, and I'm more in agreement with him than with you as well, but he did alter his position.



That would not have happened had you not let him in via your PC. It's these heated conversations that forge strong opinions with firmer foundations.



I can't speak for Erik, but for me, it's not that I don't care about the suffering of the woman so long as that baby lives. I care a great deal, but I care a great deal for both human lives, and if it's not a choice between one life or the other, then both lives should be allowed. While that's terrible and horrible for the lady and my heart aches for her, it's not life-threatening.



Nature played a cruel joke on us, not letting us share in childbirth. There's nothing we can do about that. I just dream of a day when some doctor somewhere figures out how to extract a living fetus from the womb of an unwilling woman, and place it in the womb of one willing to be its mother.
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Post by Victoria »

Accountable

Its not his view on abortion that worries me.

Its his wording in the way he talks about women.

That worries me.

Its not that long that we have had the vote, in the UK the right to divorce our husbands, the right to keep our children after divorce ( in Islam thats still not the case) the right to take out a hire purchase contract.

We dont want to take a step back to the good old days because they weren't good at all not if you were female.

If Erik had used some of the same phasing he used about women in a thread about race or religion he would have been gone in a flash but because its women we are supposed to bite our lip and put up with it? No.. we dont. and whats more some of us wont put up with it.
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Post by YZGI »

Victoria;1201811 wrote: Accountable

Its not his view on abortion that worries me.

Its his wording in the way he talks about women.

That worries me.

Its not that long that we have had the vote, in the UK the right to divorce our husbands, the right to keep our children after divorce ( in Islam thats still not the case) the right to take out a hire purchase contract.

We dont want to take a step back to the good old days because they weren't good at all not if you were female.



If Erik had used some of the same phasing he used about women in a thread about race or religion he would have been gone in a flash but because its women we are supposed to bite our lip and put up with it? No.. we dont. and whats more some of us wont put up with it.


She is woman hear her roar!!!:)
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Post by CARLA »

Thank you Victoria for your fortitude to stand in here and take this issue on full force. I applaud you as I couldn't do it my anger would overcome me. BRAVO..!!
ALOHA!!

MOTTO TO LIVE BY:

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, champagne in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming.

WOO HOO!!, what a ride!!!"

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Post by gmc »

posted by accountable

Nature played a cruel joke on us, not letting us share in childbirth. There's nothing we can do about that. I just dream of a day when some doctor somewhere figures out how to extract a living fetus from the womb of an unwilling woman, and place it in the womb of one willing to be its mother.


Don't you man god played a cruel joke?

But in that vein and without intending to offend anyone.

If god gave woman the ability to give birth would he not also have intended the choice as to when and if to give birth to be theirs as well? Clearly he didn't trust adam with the responsibility. Come to that how about deciding whose child she should bear? So if carrying a child that is not her choice to carry why should man take away that god given right to choose? So is forced marriage-as practice in some cultures-not against the will of god as also is forcing a woman to carry a child she wishes not to have?
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Post by Erik »

"You wrap this up in an anti abortion save the child packinging yet all I see is hateful controlling misogynistic claptrap. Despite your words you really have no respect for women at all."



If this is all you see, then you are too blinded by your emotions to discuss this issue in a rational, logical manner.

It might be a good idea for you to bow out of this thread for a while. The last thing I want is to cause you emotional pain with my views, but I am not about to change what I see as "truth" to avoid giving offense.

Despite what you think, I have no ill will towards you Victoria . It seems as if you have experienced some of the things discussed in this thread, and if thats true,I hope you find the support and encouragment you need to recover from whatever it is you have been forced to endure.
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Post by Erik »

Just to clarify, its not that I have no regard for the suffering of women, or see them as less valuable than men. Its that I dont believe that the suffering a woman endures from rape justifies killing an unborn child. I also feel, that while its not justified, a woman who gets an abortion after being raped is above reproach as choosing to carry a child under such conditions requires more strength and courage than most of us (men and women) have.

If you re-read my previous posts you will see all of this.



The anger you saw in my earlier posts was directed towards people (not just women) who who see abortion as a form of family planning. If that was not clear, I apologize.

So no, I dont have any negative feelings towards women. My wife is my queen, my best friend, and the source of everything in my life that I value, love and live for. She is my world, and has been for over ten years.
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Post by Accountable »

gmc;1201886 wrote: Don't you man god played a cruel joke?



But in that vein and without intending to offend anyone.



If god gave woman the ability to give birth would he not also have intended the choice as to when and if to give birth to be theirs as well? Clearly he didn't trust adam with the responsibility. Come to that how about deciding whose child she should bear? So if carrying a child that is not her choice to carry why should man take away that god given right to choose? So is forced marriage-as practice in some cultures-not against the will of god as also is forcing a woman to carry a child she wishes not to have?I tend to write what I mean, as you well know. I do wish you'd stop reading into my posts that I wish to force anything. Try to read without inferring for a change, eh?



Every syllable I've posted supports my sig, "I choose freedom, warts and all." If you disagree, show me where & I'll be glad to discuss it. It probably should be in a different thread, though. There's an Ask Accountable thread here somewhere, but you'll have to blow the dust off it.
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Post by Accountable »

Back to the OP: Is there anyone who does not think the killer is a right-wing terrorist?
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Post by Chockygirl »

CARLA;1201837 wrote: Thank you Victoria for your fortitude to stand in here and take this issue on full force. I applaud you as I couldn't do it my anger would overcome me. BRAVO..!!

I'm just surprised that a lot more women haven't joined in with this debate.

Even if you're against abortion,the way that Erik talked about women as 'whoring around' was very demeaning and unacceptable.
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Post by flopstock »

Chockygirl;1202082 wrote:

I'm just surprised that a lot more women haven't joined in with this debate.

Even if you're against abortion,the way that Erik talked about women as 'whoring around' was very demeaning and unacceptable.




If I see dog crap in the street, I just walk around it. I don't stop and attempt to engage it in intelligent conversation. It has nothing to offer that I would be interested in, TBH



Similar reaction to Erik's post. That kinda of crap isn't intended to persuade anyone to his side of an argument. It's simply dropped for shock value and to get everyones emotions worked up so that he can return later and chastise whoever stepped into it, for being emotional rather then logical..:rolleyes: It's a gimmick. I'll pass thanks.



I think the intelligent conversation can be had though. There are folks who disagree with my view on this and other issues who I enjoy reading and can appreciate their point of view.



So I've been reading around Erik and enjoyed the discussion they are having.:-6
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Post by Bill Sikes »

Chockygirl;1202082 wrote: B]FONT="Century Gothic"]SIZE="3"]COLOR="DarkOrchid"]

Even if you're against abortion,the way that Erik talked about women as 'whoring around' was very demeaning and unacceptable.


Where's that, then? I'd like to comment, perhaps.
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Post by gmc »

Accountable;1202068 wrote: I tend to write what I mean, as you well know. I do wish you'd stop reading into my posts that I wish to force anything. Try to read without inferring for a change, eh?



Every syllable I've posted supports my sig, "I choose freedom, warts and all." If you disagree, show me where & I'll be glad to discuss it. It probably should be in a different thread, though. There's an Ask Accountable thread here somewhere, but you'll have to blow the dust off it.


It was actually intended as a general comment designed to provoke more debate rather than aimed at you specifically-although maybe I wasn't clear enough.

If god made man-as some believe-then he gave the ability and responsibility to bring forth life to women not trusting man with it. should it not then be the choice of woman as to whether she becomes pregnant or not? Or having become pregnant whether to continue with a pregnancy or not? Is it right to second guess god's decision to trust women and overrule him?

I was just curious to see how someone who is religious would respond. But knowing the predisposition of some to take things personally

But in that vein and without intending to offend anyone.




posted by accountable

Back to the OP: Is there anyone who does not think the killer is a right-wing terrorist?


I would say probably a religious terrorist-although i don't know if the guy has been caught yet or if he does claim a religious motivation.
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Post by Erik »

flopstock;1202084 wrote: If I see dog crap in the street, I just walk around it. I don't stop and attempt to engage it in intelligent conversation. It has nothing to offer that I would be interested in, TBH



Similar reaction to Erik's post. That kinda of crap isn't intended to persuade anyone to his side of an argument. It's simply dropped for shock value and to get everyones emotions worked up so that he can return later and chastise whoever stepped into it, for being emotional rather then logical..:rolleyes: It's a gimmick. I'll pass thanks.



I think the intelligent conversation can be had though. There are folks who disagree with my view on this and other issues who I enjoy reading and can appreciate their point of view.



So I've been reading around Erik and enjoyed the discussion they are having.:-6


Ignorance is bliss hu?

As I already said, that comment was directed towards women who feel its ok to abort a child conceived through casual consensual sex. Such a selfish, blatant disregard for the life of the unborn child is infuriating and abhorrent.

This is nothing I have not said already, more than once.

I’m tired of having to repeat myself to those of you too lazy to read my posts before responding. And at this point this conversation seems to be running in circles, not to mention being de-railed.



If you want to sit around and discuss what a horrible woman hating troglodyte you think I am go start another thread and have a ball.



For those of you still capable of rational discussion, have something new to add to the topic at hand, or have a question for me directly that I have not already answered feel free to send me a message.
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Post by Chockygirl »

Bill Sikes;1202096 wrote: Where's that, then? I'd like to comment, perhaps.
Erik;1199712 wrote:

Let’s say I entered a lottery where the winner would receive a child from an adoption agency. Now let’s say that, even though I don’t want a child, the process of entering the lottery was so enjoyable I was willing to

take the risk for the sake of short term gratification.

Then one day my number comes up and I end up with a kid on my doorstep. Not wanting to have a kid, I call a certain person to come over and take care of it.

When this person arrives, he takes my baby, rips some of his limbs off with sharp instruments, burns him head toe with a powerful chemical, crushes his skull and discards him in the trash can one bloody chunk at a time,

all without using any pain killer.

What kind of person would butcher a child in such a way? And what kind of person would have it done to their own baby?



What’s described in this story is same thing physically and morally as getting an Abortion. It’s not about Religion, but facts. Our society is too educated to believe that an unborn baby is nothing more than a "ball of flesh and tissue".

Unborn children are human beings who deserve the same rights as anybody else.

A woman doesn’t have the right to terminate her pregnancy any more than I had the right to do what is described in the above story.



These unborn babies are being butchered for no other reason than to preserve a woman’s right to spread her legs without considering the possible consequences. I can’t think of a crime that is more selfish, brutal or heartless.

While some women get abortions out of pure ignorance, educated women who support abortion are nothing more than heartless fools who place greater value on their right to whore around than they would place on their own child.

Therefore, as I see it, these women are no better than Gorge Tiller, and Gorge Tiller was a butcher of children.

And he got exactly what he deserved.

Good riddance.

Here's the relevant post,Bill.

It was very degrading towards women.
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Post by buttercup »

Jeez i'd never even heard of this guy until today.

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