Are they breaking the law

lady cop
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Post by lady cop »

not necessarily....but they may be foolish...what exactly constitutes "magic" mushrooms? who has identified them? more details are needed.
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Post by lady cop »

the thing is, it has to be identified as a controlled substance. if someone goes out and picks mushrooms they are not committing a felony. my grandmother used to do it. if they are gathering something in the wild which has not been classified and subject to control, there is no crime. if they go out and produce an illegal drug from the natural plant...then there is a violation of the law.
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Post by koan »

If they drank it they probably don't care if it's legal or not anymore. If they are male and female they will probably also be guilty of indecent in a public place very soon.
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abbey
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Post by abbey »

hairygarden1 wrote: I never tried mushrooms, what is the big deal about them? :thinking:
"Magic muushrooms" when cooked are an halucinagenic, bit like LSD, here in Britain its not a crime to pick or posses them, unless the police can prove intent.
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Post by pantsonfire321@aol.com »

Here in the UK you need a licence to pick wild mushrooms . sarah jane
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persephone
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Post by persephone »

Here though, can you not buy them legally in Camden and other such places, with the only law being the age of the person buying them being over 18 and they can not be prepared in any way?
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Post by kensloft »

lady cop wrote: not necessarily....but they may be foolish...what exactly constitutes "magic" mushrooms? who has identified them? more details are needed.


Wouldn't intent come into play? If the 2 went out to look, specifically, for magic mushrooms wouldn't that constitute illegality? Rather than 2 kids going out not knowing what they are doing?

Just askin'?
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Post by koan »

Yeah, what were they going out in the woods for? An innocent camping trip that by chance turned into a whole different trip? And we still don't know if they were opposite sex. Were their parents aware that they were going to the woods or are they sneaking there with the intent to party? There may be other laws being broken here. Or they are two Catholic school girls doing a nature study project. Then again, I've heard about Catholic school girls. Hmmmm.

I'm not a camper, so as far as I'm concerned they were out of their minds to go there in the first place maybe the mushrooms will shock some sense into them.
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Post by lady cop »

kensloft wrote: Wouldn't intent come into play? If the 2 went out to look, specifically, for magic mushrooms wouldn't that constitute illegality? Rather than 2 kids going out not knowing what they are doing?

Just askin'?
intent is tough to prove. they could always claim they were out picking flowers a la alice's restaurant. accidentally stumbled across some 'shrooms, had no clue what they were. blah blah. first-year law student gets them off with a warning. they go home laughing. the illegal use has to be demonstrated. i find a poppy plant, i don't know it is a narcotic. *innocence* personified. PROVE i knew it.
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Post by kensloft »

Should have qualified it by saying that in their back pocket was a picture of the offending mushroom with notations telling them that that is the one that'll get them high.
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Bill Sikes
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Post by Bill Sikes »

hairygarden1 wrote: I never tried mushrooms, what is the big deal about them?


These have a reputation for giving you an unpleasant "trip". They can, too.
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Post by Bill Sikes »

letha wrote: Here though, can you not buy them legally in Camden and other such places, with the only law being the age of the person buying them being over 18 and they can not be prepared in any way?


Yup, dunno about having to be 18, though. The Gummint are trying to do something about it, although as these things grow wild *all over the place* it's hard to know what they can do! Also, last year was very good for fly agaric.
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Post by persephone »

Bill Sikes wrote: These have a reputation for giving you an unpleasant "trip". They can, too.With most hallucinogenic substances it depends very much on your state of mind and emotions before you take them... Never touched them myself mind, had enough naturally occuring hallucinations without the need for drugs.
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Post by kensloft »

Bill Sikes wrote: These have a reputation for giving you an unpleasant "trip". They can, too.


Drinking beer can give you an unpleasant "trip" if you are surrounded by a bunch of people that are on a bummer. If you don't know, say so. Postulating that what you heard is probably true doesn't make it so.

Getting hammered is not the same as getting stoned. When you are hammered (not sociably drinking) you are out of it and living on another planet. When your are stoned you are living on this planet. You are just looking at it differently.

What drives people to doing drugs is that they can't believe what their peers are telling them. It is the search for truth that pushes them on. A right to make their own assessment based on their experience and knowledge.

Lumping all drugs into one category does nothing but allow the problem to fester. Answering the problem means that a lot of people are going to be out a whack of cash in their coffers. The longer that it is kept illegal, the longer they'll be raking in the profits.

Noticing that you are British and talking about what is purported to be "Magic Mushrooms" then all I can ask is what is the chemical composition of this mushroom that makes it psychoactive?
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Post by koan »

Is this not hypothetical?

As for the experience of "magic", I never hallucinated beyond what happens when I am really tired. In fact I have hallucinated much more from sleep deprivation. But not sleeping isn't against the law. I stopped doing drugs because I suddenly realized the effect was actually the symptoms of poisoning. I don't really think I need psychotropics anyway. For those who need to try, mushrooms are better than acid. Cut with too much rat poison. Damn those muscle spasms. It is an interesting eye opener but when your eyes can't close anymore you've done too much. It's not magic it is the side effect of poison.

But then the question is: Is it legal? Not: Is it a good idea? I understand it being illegal to hurt other people but why to hurt one's self?
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Post by persephone »

kensloft wrote: Noticing that you are British and talking about what is purported to be "Magic Mushrooms" then all I can ask is what is the chemical composition of this mushroom that makes it psychoactive?Does it matter if Bill is English, do you think you know better because you are from Canada?

Anyway, since you ask, here is your answer...

Active Compounds

The compounds responsible for the psychological effects of the Psilocybes are known as tryptamines.

Tryptamines are those compounds that contain an indole ring. These compounds resemble the neurotransmitter serotonin. They are thought to be competitive agonists of 5-HT2 receptors (a particular subtype of the serotonin receptor.) Psilocybin is the most abundant tryptamine in Psilocybe mushrooms and has been present in concentrations ranging from 0.36% in P. stuntzii to 0.98% in P. semilanceata . However, after ingestion it is rapidly dephosphorylated by the enzyme alkaline phosphatase in the intestine. Thus, it is the metabolite psilocin which is thought to be responsible for hallucinations and psychological effects.

Psilocin is the next most abundant compound, ranging from 0.12% in P. stuntzii to .60% in Psilocybe cubensis. Its bioavailability (the amount that is absorbed in the bloodstream from the intestines) was found to be around 50% in mice. Psilocin distributes uniformly in most body tissues, except for higher concentrations in the liver and adrenals. In rats, psilocin concentrates in specific areas of the brain: the neocortex, the hippocampus (involved in learning and memory), and thalamus (sensory processing). In rats, about 20% of psilocin is excreted unaltered in the urine, with the remainder excreted as polar conjugate metabolites such as glucoronides. It has been estimated that less than 4% of psilocin is degraded by monoamine oxidase, the enzyme that degrades endogenous monoamines like serotonin.

Baeocystin is usually present in concentrations of less than 0.1%. However, a few species, such as P. semilanceata (Liberty Caps) may have a content as high as 0.36%. Because few pharmacologic studies have been done with baeocystin, its potency relative to psilocin is unknown.

Some mushrooms of genera other than Psilocybe also contain psychoactive tryptamines, including Paneolus, Gymnopilus, and Inocybe.

For the information on long and short term toxicity click here
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Post by kensloft »

letha wrote: Does it matter if Bill is English, do you think you know better because you are from Canada?

Anyway, since you ask, here is your answer...


It doesn't matter if Bill is English. What I was saying was that I may have spoken too soon when I went on about bad trips from magic mushrooms. I don't know if a psylocibin mushroom grows in England. (Hence, the reason for the bad trip)

I remember when they were yet legal in Canada, some guy was selling them out of his store. Come to think of it he was British. Eventually he was busted for doing so because they found acid in the brew? People that I knew used to talk about how similar it was to taking acid. It didn't sound right to me so I never bothered getting any because acid is acid, mescaline is mescaline and psylocibin is psylocibin. Three different drugs. Three different trips. It's like the difference between smoking pot and smoking hash.

Speaking of British, my brother is London, English/British. Born there in the war and returned when he was able to do so.

What is the name of the mushroom that was picked in England? (botanical)

Thank yo for the research.

Sorry to seem like I was coming across with know-it-all fever.

peace
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Post by persephone »

Liberty Cap BBC info here. This also answers the question of legal or not in the UK.
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Post by kensloft »

letha wrote: Liberty Cap BBC info here. This also answers the question of legal or not in the UK.


Try this link... http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Psylocibin

Amanita muscaria didn't do too much for me. This is the type that is found in British Columbia.

The Mexican psylocibin mushroom is reputed to be the lsd of mushrooms. It is a sacrament to many indigenous mountain people in Mexico. A friend of mine did a documentary on these people for TV. The name of his film company was T. F. Much Films. While passing through Louisiana he was aked what the initials stood for. His reply almost floored the guy when he said... Too F***ing Much Films.

Haven't met many people that suffered stomach pains with amanita muscaria?

Thanks again for your help.
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Post by persephone »

Think the stomach pains are more of a warning in the BBC link, next bit is a warning about eating the wrong mushrooms. I grew up in the country side and have known kids to go out hunting for the mushrooms.

Imagine what could happen !!!

Then like I've said I won't touch anything that may bring on hallucinations, I'm even scared of anesthetic :wah:
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Post by kensloft »

lady cop wrote: not necessarily....but they may be foolish...what exactly constitutes "magic" mushrooms? who has identified them? more details are needed.


Apparently magic mushrooms are not against the law in Florida. Is this true LC?

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Psylocibin

Scroll down to psylocibin and the law.
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Post by lady cop »

kensloft wrote: Apparently magic mushrooms are not against the law in Florida. Is this true LC?

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Psylocibin

Scroll down to psylocibin and the law.
that statement was in reference to possession/intent and the way the initial question was phrased.... and how it would be dealt with by defense. of course all hallucinagens are illegal here.
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Post by kensloft »

lady cop wrote: that statement was in reference to possession/intent and the way the initial question was phrased.... and how it would be dealt with by defense. of course all hallucinagens are illegal here.


So that means that it has gone through the courts? I'm only going by what I read on the site. Who knows when it was last updated?
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Post by persephone »

This kind of fits in with the thread, as you all know here in the UK we have a large population of Asians. They have back home a natural halluciagens that they chew, I guess a bit like the way we used to chew tabbaco.

Now there are cases where the chewer ends up being admitted to a mental health hospital because they have psychotic episodes bought on by the plant. I believe it is something that is used for religious purposes but some abuse.

The govenment says because it is a natural plant and also part of their culture it is not illegal to import it or use it. After seeing so many people hospitalised due to it I was shocked it wasn't illegal.

Sorry I do not know the name of it, different areas have different names for the plant and I'm not even sure if it isn't a different plant in different areas... Suresh Gupta, may be able to say.
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Post by Bill Sikes »

kensloft wrote: Noticing that you are British and talking about what is purported to be "Magic Mushrooms" then all I can ask is what is the chemical composition of this mushroom that makes it psychoactive?


The most common hallucinogens are psilocin and psylocybin - from the "Liberty Cap". Other fungi are used here, e.g. the much stronger Fly Agaric, not for the "faint of heart" (c.f.).
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Post by persephone »

Bill Sikes wrote: the much stronger Fly Agaric, not for the "faint of heart" (c.f.).More for the insane "I don't care what happens to me" type person.
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Bill Sikes
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Post by Bill Sikes »

letha wrote: More for the insane "I don't care what happens to me" type person.


Bad for the heart.... you don't really want that bit of you to go wrong!
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Post by kensloft »

Asians covers a whole lot of territory and the ethnicities range from East Indians to Orientals. It leaves a lot of turf, people and possible drugs to figure out. Specificity of the nationality would help to narrow this down.
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Post by persephone »

That's the thing there is no one nationality, most I can narrow it down to is Muslims and I'm not sure if it's Hindi as well. They also cover great areas. Not my fault our etnicities are not specific on our admission papers :-5
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Post by kensloft »

The Ethiopians, some of whom are Muslims, have a drug called khat that can be chewn or made into a tea. It is considered to be a stimulant.

http://www.streetdrugs.org/khat.htm

this link should give you some follow up material.
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Post by persephone »

That's one of them, but there are more, and not one is illegal in the UK as I said... It's natural so okay... Makes no sense when you think what is in them and can be abstracted and then abused.
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Post by kensloft »

letha wrote: That's one of them, but there are more, and not one is illegal in the UK as I said... It's natural so okay... Makes no sense when you think what is in them and can be abstracted and then abused.


That's the thing about extracting, you do it and all of a sudden you are getting ten or twenty times the dose that you would normally get.

Natural plants are enough and should be allowed to remain legal but once you get into extracting the active drug then you get problems. People taking too much of a good thing will find that it isn't so good anymore.

The real question is how to keep it away from the chemists.
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persephone
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Post by persephone »

Well that's it, you can't. There will always be users causing a demand and always suppliers to that demand.

Obviously it's difficult to ban something that grows naturally in a country, but to allow something that is simlar and grows in another country seems daft, it just allows more choice to the chemists... I can see them rubbing their hands together as they get the raw material they need with no worries at all.

Canabis is banned in any form why not everything else?
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Post by kensloft »

letha wrote: Well that's it, you can't. There will always be users causing a demand and always suppliers to that demand.

Obviously it's difficult to ban something that grows naturally in a country, but to allow something that is simlar and grows in another country seems daft, it just allows more choice to the chemists... I can see them rubbing their hands together as they get the raw material they need with no worries at all.

Canabis is banned in any form why not everything else?


Canabis is banned because certain elements within society want it that way. It is not the do gooder politician. It is the crime bosses that reap immense amounts of cash for their fortunes. These moneys are then invested in legitimate businesses and while the legitimacy of the businesses is not in doubt, the productivity is suspect of being no more than a resource to legitimize more money for the criminals.

When the businesses expire the crime bosses waddle off with their lucre.

Canada is looking to legitimize the decriminalization of marijuana because it sees and realizes that there are those that are exploiting the criminalization of this herb for their own gain. These moneys are then put into other enterprises that create the Iraq-Afghanistan conflicts. Heroin is a more profitable means of turning over a buck for their coffers. They are just as criminally responsible as the Al Quaeda but aren't brought to task for their misdeeds.

If you don't think that these moneys make it into politicians' war chests for elections then you and I are not living on the same planet.
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persephone
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Well while all that is true, what about the patients that are admitted to hospital with psychotic episodes, and end up in mental health hospitals?

Decriminalization isn't going to stop that.
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Post by kensloft »

letha wrote: Well while all that is true, what about the patients that are admitted to hospital with psychotic episodes, and end up in mental health hospitals?

Decriminalization isn't going to stop that.


We are at a fundamental, diametrically opposed position as regards our interpretatioin of drugs causing people to wind up in a mental institute. From smoking pot? The only time that that should happen is when the patient decides that living on the street is no longer what they want to do, so they feign mental disorder for three meals a day and lodging.

Painting all drugs with the same brush isn't the way to go about solving the problem. Some drugs are hazardous. Crack. Methamphetamine. Heroin. Coke.

If the horid results that we know are to happen, occurred after the first try of the drug, then the world would be a better place. It doesn't, so, we are left to struggle with the dilemma.

Their only similarity is that they eventually cause the user to fall into a debillitated state. How fast and when changes from person to person. Eventually it takes over their lives and causes them to forget who they are. What they are about. And what their aspirations are.

The only guys that are enjoying it are the guys that are laughing all the way to the bank while you are stuck footing the bill for the sojourn at the institute. Nobody wants to go after them because you don't know who they are and they have guns that they will use to kill you. It is far better to blame the victim and victimize them once again so that you can feel that you are doing the right thing.
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Post by persephone »

kensloft wrote: We are at a fundamental, diametrically opposed position as regards our interpretatioin of drugs causing people to wind up in a mental institute. From smoking pot? The only time that that should happen is when the patient decides that living on the street is no longer what they want to do, so they feign mental disorder for three meals a day and lodging.
You talk about painting all drugs with the same brush, seems you are painting all drug users with the same brush.

I have worked with drug users for over three years and many if not all who I have seen are not homeless, most have been middle class teenagers and young people, who end up in the hospitals, previously with no known mental health issues.

There is even research to show what canabis does Read here.
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letha wrote: You talk about painting all drugs with the same brush, seems you are painting all drug users with the same brush.

I have worked with drug users for over three years and many if not all who I have seen are not homeless, most have been middle class teenagers and young people, who end up in the hospitals, previously with no known mental health issues.

There is even research to show what canabis does


Jusy as you are doing... talking about the reality of the things that confront you day to day in you charitable works... so too did I. There is no painting with the same brush.

It was not some fantasy that I drew from my mind in order to make a point. The person is real. The act (being admitted into a psychiatric institution based on his having had marijuana) is real. And the facts, as I had given to you, are real. There is no painting with the same brush intended.

I have been around people with drug problems all of my adult life. I have helped them for no other reason than they had asked me to help them. As you know it is a very disheartening moment when you see people fall back into the pit from which you were trying to help them extricate them.

To say that there aren't drugs that are hazardous to the health and mental well-being of people is ludicrous. Crack. Methamphetines. Heroin. Coke. The list is long but these are highly recognized as being the culprits for a lot of problems with which societies are grappling.

You never know when the dire effects of these drugs are going to start taking their toll on the people consuming them. You never know which person is going to fall under its spell. You just know that eventually the person will change because of the circumstances into which they are thrust by their addiction.

You, apparently, are working with people that have legitimate psychological problems. The only drugs that they should be taking are the ones that have been researched and tested to help alleviate the pain or condition that their problems present them with for the rest of their lives. I don't see that it has much to do with pot.

The only people that are laughing are the guys that are going to the banks with their lucre from the drugs. They then take their lucre and invest it into legitimate businesses. What is not suspect is that they are legitimate enterprises. What is their reality is that they are the means of legitimizing scads more of the filthy lucre. When the business goes under the owners walk away with a whack of cash that has been born of destroyed human beings and is legitimized by, allegedly, legal businesses.

These moneys are then reinvested into the heroin and cocaine trades. This is the money that feeds and arms to the Al Quaeda or Taliban. Opium exports will be changed into heroin by the chemists of Europe and Asia. And the vicious cycle will return to continue the dire and destitute lives of their consumers. Nobody chases them because you don't know who they are and they have guns that they will use to kill you. It is far easier to victimize the victims that use the drugs.

If you don't think that any of this money doesn't find its way into the campaign coffers of politicians then we are living on different planets and not different countries. As long as the can keep it illegal they'll be making money hand over fist and will continue laughing al the way to the bank while you are miffed that you will have to foot the bill for the institutionalized patient.

If you want to go on a case by case assessment then we can do so. If you want to discuss each of the drugs then we can do so. Trying to point out the terrors of the scientific conclusions of what marijuana does to the brain or body holds no sway with me. It reminds me of a study that was done in the early 70's that proved that prolonged use of marijuana would kill you.

The test subjects were fitted with gas masks through which marijuana was pumped in so as to be inhaled by the monkeys that were acting as the test subjects. Eventually they died giving credence to the belief that marijuana kills. Proven beyond a shadow of doubt. Absolutely conclusive of the death waiting around the corner if you smoke too much pot.

The establishment were overjoyed with the results until it was figured out that the only thing that the subjects were receiving was pot smoke. No oxygen. They were asphyxiated to reach a conclusion that was not true but would pay the bills for the scientists carrying out the tests.

Anything that you ingest in your body will have an effect on you physiologically. That is what metabolism is all about.

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Post by koan »

I would bet that the people who received the money to carry out this ridiculous research were related to some politician or another.

As a side note. Have you ever, actually, laughed all the way to the bank? I did it once intentionally just so I'd know what it felt like. Pretty darn good.
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Post by kensloft »

koan wrote: I would bet that the people who received the money to carry out this ridiculous research were related to some politician or another.

As a side note. Have you ever, actually, laughed all the way to the bank? I did it once intentionally just so I'd know what it felt like. Pretty darn good.


No. I've always wanted to do it for real. Problem is I know how to cry all the way to the bank all too well.
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kensloft wrote: No. I've always wanted to do it for real. Problem is I know how to cry all the way to the bank all too well.


I cling to the memory. It helps me through the times when I have nothing to take to the bank and it's better than smoking pot or doing mushrooms. See the link back to the topic? Wasn't that clever?
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Post by persephone »

kensloft wrote: Jusy as you are doing... talking about the reality of the things that confront you day to day in you charitable works... so too did I. There is no painting with the same brush.Sorry I know this is a very silly little point, but I don't quite like my job being called "Charitable work", I'm a health care professional, and I'll stress the professional bit, because it's bloody hard work becoming a qualified nurse (I'm very nearly there)... Anyone qualified or not can do "charatable work".

And whilst I do not disagree with you about where the money goes to, I still don't see the point in decriminalization, I used to when I was younger, but the bad guys are still going to be there, selling it cheaper and without the tax on top just like with tabbaco products now.

And kids are still going to end up with a mental health medical record. Oh and many have gone home and to our knowledge been okay... Some have ended up being diagnosed with other problems... Still never looks good on medical records "Drug induced psychosis".
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Are they breaking the law

Post by kensloft »

letha wrote: And kids are still going to end up with a mental health medical record. Oh and many have gone home and to our knowledge been okay... Some have ended up being diagnosed with other problems... Still never looks good on medical records "Drug induced psychosis".


You could give some very good lessons to America. Instead of sentencing kids to long terms in prison they could save the money by diagnosing them with fabricated diseases of the mind.

Of course it wouldn't go over too well with the construction industry that are building the prisons or the guards' Unions that staff the prisons so that they can keep these horrible subhumans in their places. Behind bars.

In America the bars are made of steel. In Britain they are, apparently, made of the imagination. This way you can make sure that they don't get any really good jobs and are kept subservient to the cause.

Pot is a weed. It grows anywhere. Under the proper conditions it can grow into a desired potency. It should be free. If it is to be taxed then it should be taxed such that it would be unthinkable for the criminals to invest in such a low return on their investments. Claiming that they will be there, even if it was legalized or decriminalized, is just another excuse to prove that you are right and everybody else is wrong.

You don't have to worry about your conscience bothering you because you can always say that you were told that it destroyed the brain. Who are you to say that the all-knowing government could be wrong. You are, after all, only a nurse.

What happens when you discover that they haven't been up front with you. Will you have to re-do your nursing courses or will you just be able to take a course to correct the misinformation while you are still at work?

If Khalil Ghibran were alive today he would laud the remake of the prophet/idiot.

I can't believe what you are describing to me. It sounds like a twenty-first century Edgar Allan Poe horror story. Frankly I think that those you have diagnosed with other problems had those problems to begin with and all you did was discover that they were there. It has nothing to do with them having ingested pot.

In peace
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persephone
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Are they breaking the law

Post by persephone »

Funnily enough it is not the govenment who sees these kids, diagnosis them or treats them. They also don't tell us what we see with our own eyes.

Drug induced psychosis is a perminant thing, and as I said most do go home again within a week, they have done things that have caused their families, police, doctors or someone to bring them into hospital.

Some have had problems that may or may not have surfaced before the use of drugs, no one can tell.

Kids don't need to be put in prison if they have just been using drugs in social situations or trying things out, and if that is what you do in America then that is far worse... I'm sure a prison record is worse than a mental health record!

Nursing doesn't just come from books and govenment papers, it is not just taught in a classroom, infact you can never really be taught to be a nurse. You learn by doing and from what you see, life experiences.

When I see a young person my age or younger come into my ward screwed up and not really in this world, and see them leave a different person and not on medication before you say we drug them up, able to hold a conversation that makes sense, and saying thank you, because they didn't think it would end and they would be theirselves again... That talks louder to me than the crap you are coming out with or all the documentation.

When I see someone who I am close to, working, owning their own house, having their own car and not being reliant on drugs, being able to go out with his girlfriend and showing no paranoia, or attacking anyone. Then that again shows me more than anything else.

You just carry on living in your little dream world... I'll carry on in the real world.
Bad Girls have very high standards, but they love you even if you sometimes fall short.

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