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All aspects of your pet's behavior. Do you need help? Is your pet behaving normally?
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DesignerGal
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Post by DesignerGal »

I have 2 dogs. A 5 year old, and then we got a puppy at 6 weeks. THe older dog takes care of the puppy when strangers or other dogs are present. They get along great most of the time, but sometimes the older dog goes after the puppy (who is now 1) and bites her legs to get her down. The puppy is a lab so we are worried this might damage hips that are prone to problems at a later age. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Advice?






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Post by valerie »

Well BR might be a good one to reply to this but I'll give 'er a bit of a go...



When you say "goes after" is this their normal play or is the older one

being aggressive? It sounds like normal play to me.



I wouldn't let it happen on concrete but if it's in the yard, grassy area

say or soft carpet in the living room it should be okay. Sounds like the

older one is showing dominance over the pup. Letting the pup know

where her place is in the "pack".



Do you know the breeding on the pup? If she started out with good hips,

they are likely to stay that way. Of course, not all dysplasia can be

completely linked up to genetics so again, I'd try and keep them off the

really hard surfaces when they play.



I wanted to give you at least some reply to your post, I'm going to be

away from the 'puter all day, but I'm sure if BR sees this she can give

you a little more insight!!



:)
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Post by BabyRider »

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Val!



DG, your puppy's hips are most likely in no danger from this sort of play. When you got her, was there any info on her papers about her hips being "certified"? Some breeders, (the reputable ones, anyway) will only breed dogs whose hips have proven sound. A pet store puppy will not have this certification. They (the pet store) may have had her vet checked, including a hip check, but that's not always going to cover everything. Only a certification from a reputable breeder would put me completely at ease.

If you got her from a pet store, or other unknown, take her to the vet and tell him your concerns. As Val said, if they're prone to dysplasia, they should be able to tell now, and if they're in good shape, they'll stay that way.

Also, this behavior is perfectly normal from your older dog, and even a good thing. This socailization and "manners" lesson from your older dog is a great way for your pup to learn her place. It teaches her the way a pack works from a pack member who can get the message to her even better than a person can.

I would be curious to know what kind of dog the older one is, though.
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Post by DesignerGal »

The older dog is a mut. I have been told she resembles the following breeds: basset (sp?) hound, american foxhound, and pointer. Im guessing her parents were muts too. She was a stray. As for my puppy, she is a pure black lab, however, a friend's lab was impregnated by her neighbor's lab by accident, so I didnt pay for her, or seek out a breeder, it just worked out that way that I was given a purebred puppy.

The older dog is VERY AGRESSIVE when other dogs are around ever since we got the puppy. For example: Before the pup, she played along with other dogs fine, even when they came to our house. Since the pup, if another dog comes to our house, she will flat out attack! She attacked my cousin's whippet taking a chunk out of his leg, no medicine or stitches were needed but still. I havent allowed any other dogs at my house since for fear it will happen again. Any thoughts on this behavior? Im worried about having a baby (a human one, I mean).






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Post by BabyRider »

OK, so you know the parentage of the puppy. How old are the parents, and do you know if they get regular vet care?



As for your older dog, just from the little info I have I'd say that as her pack is growing, and she is no longer the Omega dog, (that spot was taken by the puppy) she feels empowered, and wants to be sure her new position isn't threatened. She is also most likely feeling protective of the new addition.

The way dogs interact with other dogs is no indication of how they will act with people, and a baby will probably not be in any danger from your older dog. There are things you can do to assure that, though.

Dogs are pack animals. They understand and deal best in an ordered heirarchy. When we're talking about a pack of humans and dogs, the dogs must be in the lowest ranks, below the humans. Reassure the older dog of her position: below you and other people in the home, but above the puppy. The older dog gets attention first, gets fed first, gets to go out and come in first. Reaffirming her spot in the pack, as below ANY human in the home but above other dogs will help her adjust to a new "boss." The baby. For the older dog to be displaying protective behavior towards the puppy only assures me that she will be protective of a baby as well.
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Post by DesignerGal »

The older dog gets attention first, gets fed first, gets to go out and come in first.

Oh no. I have been feeding the pup first since she gobbles food down and the older one attacked her at first. I fill both bowls, set don pup's first, then set down older dog's. Let me make this easier for myself Annie is the older dog, Kudzu is the pup. So Annie's food goes down after K's. Should I start doing it the other way around?






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Post by BabyRider »

Absolutely. You are seeing Annie trying to assert her position as boss dog over the puppy. In a pack, the Alpha couple always eat first, followed by the lower ranking members, and the Omega dog eats ONLY when the Alpha gives permission. You are Alpha in this pack, and when you allow the omega to eat before a higher-ranking dog, Annie, she feels threatened. Annie knows she belongs as a higher rank than the puppy, and feeding Kudzu first is confusing that heirarchy, contributing to her needing to re-assert her position to Kudzu. Does that make sense?
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Post by valerie »

I gotta jet but I also wanted to mention YOU eating first, there's a name

for it that escapes me... BR? Basically what you do is pretend to eat food

out of the dogs bowl (put a tiny plate with some soda crackers on it if you

have to) and munch and smack, THEN hand the food down for Annie.



Maybe feed Kudzu in her crate, AFTER Annie is finished. Kudzu can see

Annie eating first, and that would be the proper order. For her.



:-6
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Post by BabyRider »

valerie wrote: I gotta jet but I also wanted to mention YOU eating first, there's a name

for it that escapes me... BR? Basically what you do is pretend to eat food

out of the dogs bowl (put a tiny plate with some soda crackers on it if you

have to) and munch and smack, THEN hand the food down for Annie.



Maybe feed Kudzu in her crate, AFTER Annie is finished. Kudzu can see

Annie eating first, and that would be the proper order. For her.



:-6
Mmm...not sure the word you're looking for, Val. (???)

But yes, I should have made that clear. You should be feeding the dogs after your regular mealtime, but if that's not an option, what Val reccomends is an excellent solution. The dogs should also be made to submit to some sort of commands, (ie: sit and stay, then release) before being allowed to their food.
[FONT=Arial Black]I hope you cherish this sweet way of life, and I hope you know that it comes with a price.
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Post by DesignerGal »

Is it too late to start this routine? I have had both dogs for one year and 5months. I have been doing the same thing everyday (twice a day).

Put down Kudzu's food

Put down Annie's food

they both eat at the same time

Kudzu finishes first (fast eater) so she goes right outside

Annie finishes (slow eater) then goes outside

I nibble or eat later in the evening, so I dont eat anywhere near them.

So, is it too late to start this? These dogs are 5years and 1 1/2 years old now.

Am I undeserving of a dog? I didnt understand the social behavior of dogs, please dont hate me!

What about sleeping arrangements? Annie slept in bed right between us. Now she sleeps on her own, in another room on another bed, and Kudzu has taken over the spot between us. When we first got the puppy we worked very hard at giving Annie the most and more attention so she wouldnt feel left out, etc.

Now Im concerned I have been screwing these dogs up ever since!






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Post by BabyRider »

Oh geez, DG...please don't worry!!! With understanding and consistency, just about any behavior can be corrected at any age! Very few people really know how to "speak dog" or understand the behavioral signs or how to interpret them. You have not done anything so drastic that it can't be corrected, and you are definitely not undeserving of a dog! Your willingness to understand and correctly handle your dogs shows me that!



While it may be slightly more difficult, depending on Kudzu's willingness to conform, you should begin changing the routine. Even if you have to separate them, Annie should be fed first, and let out first, and both dogs, ideally, should eat after you. I know it sounds silly, but it really does affect their perception of things.

About the sleeping arrangements: Was this something you changed, or the dogs did on their own?



By the way: Hate you??!?! Do you have any idea how much I enjoy getting back into this sort of thing, even at this rather "distant" level? I used to do this for a living, and to be able to do it again, even on a limited basis is a real pleasure for me. I'm truly glad to help, if I can.
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Post by DesignerGal »

This is something they started doing on their own. Quite frankly I miss my other dog not sleeping with me. SOmetimes both of them will sleep in the bed, but mostly Annie sleeps at our feet when this happens.






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Post by BabyRider »

Then if it's something that's not causing a problem between the dogs, it's not a concern. But if you would rather have Annie sleeping with you, and are willing to make it consistent, it will only reinforce the heirarchy you are trying to maintain between them. Remember, you are alpha, what you decide is best, or what you prefer should always come first. The attention of the alpha is always sought after and when it is shown more consistently to one specific dog, the omega clues in to that, and respects it.
[FONT=Arial Black]I hope you cherish this sweet way of life, and I hope you know that it comes with a price.
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Post by DesignerGal »

WOW! Thanks for the advice and tips! I will start today when I get home! I love my little Annie Belle and I hope she isnt depressed or confused!

Thanks again!:D






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Post by pantsonfire321@aol.com »

Any cat quacks out there - my big fat cat beats up my other two i have a disabled cat and a kitty and the fat one growls at the other two .im baffled i mean he really growls and wants to hurt the other two.....HELP ..
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Post by BabyRider »

DesignerGal wrote: WOW! Thanks for the advice and tips! I will start today when I get home! I love my little Annie Belle and I hope she isnt depressed or confused!



Thanks again!:D
Annie is still young, not quite a "teenager" yet. You've done her no harm, I'm sure! And you're very welcome! :yh_bigsmi
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Post by BabyRider »

pantsonfire321@aol.com wrote: Any cat quacks out there - my big fat cat beats up my other two i have a disabled cat and a kitty and the fat one growls at the other two .im baffled i mean he really growls and wants to hurt the other two.....HELP ..
Wants to hurt them or does hurt them? I need some info for this one. Ages on all kitties? Have you had them for their whole lives, or were they strays, or adoptions? What do you mean by "disabled"? How so? Who's neutered, who's declawed?
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Post by Betty Boop »

We had a new reality type program on telly here tonight, it was called 'It's me or the dog'

They more or less gave the same advice as you guys are and it certainly sorted out two house ruling, leg humping labradors!!!:D



I am ashamed to admit that I had to give that ultimatum over a puppy we had, he was a beautiful dog, but my husband worked long hours and I had a disabled child, another child on the way and our other dog to cope with, and I just didn't have the time for him.

I just wish the timing had been better, although on a plus side I do see him now and again, he looks happy and it takes me all my time not to go and give him a cuddle.:-1
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Post by abbey »

Betty Boop wrote: We had a new reality type program on telly here tonight, it was called 'It's me or the dog'

They more or less gave the same advice as you guys are and it certainly sorted out two house ruling, leg humping labradors!!!:D



Saw that Be Bop and i wanna see the one on how to stop the dogs barking,

My girl drives me crazy, she barks at everyone & everything:-5
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Post by Betty Boop »

abbey wrote: Saw that Be Bop and i wanna see the one on how to stop the dogs barking,

My girl drives me crazy, she barks at everyone & everything:-5


hehehe Aramus was like that too!! Freindly bark though, not aggressive, although once a person had come in or you told him quiet he would, does yours keep going??



Did you see Supernanny too???





Be Bop???:p :yh_rotfl
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Post by valerie »

abbey wrote: Saw that Be Bop and i wanna see the one on how to stop the dogs barking,

My girl drives me crazy, she barks at everyone & everything:-5


There are some things you can try... how much exercise does your girl

get? How many toys does she have? Up the levels of those 2 things and

you might have a start towards fixing the problem! Really!



Is this while she is in the house? Or outside? Or both? Sounds like you

need to teach her a little "focus". Get some super yummy treats, ideally

ones you save only for this, get a friend to help, and when the friend

comes to the door (if your girl barks at such) have the friend TOTALLY

ignore your girl, while you practice sit/stays or down/stays with your

girl, and lots of treats. I have a "3 Bark" rule (or actually used to 'cause

my girl no longer needs it!!) the dog is allowed to "intruder alert" and then

let me take over with a "command". (Usually it's "Thank you, Tamsen")

All this to start should be on leash. You can slowly wean her off as she

improves. Outside, pretty much the same thing. YOU must be the most

important thing in her universe, she should look to YOU for everything.

If she has "ball drive" and starts barking at another dog, bounce a tennis

ball right in front of her nose!



Always with the praise. Name first (Tamsen) and then the command (Sit)

Then the treat payoff and/or happy voice "Good girl". The only command

you should use all by itself is NO. Don't want the dog associating her name

with that!!



Good luck!!



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Post by valerie »

BabyRider wrote: Mmm...not sure the word you're looking for, Val. (???)

But yes, I should have made that clear. You should be feeding the dogs after your regular mealtime, but if that's not an option, what Val reccomends is an excellent solution. The dogs should also be made to submit to some sort of commands, (ie: sit and stay, then release) before being allowed to their food.


Finally got it... it's called "gesture feeding" and it's from a book called The

Dog Listener by Jan Fennell.



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Post by pantsonfire321@aol.com »

Hey thanks BR - my cats are ages nearly three - the fat moody one bob hes spayed ,the middle one we call him scab is about 1 1/2 he has an under developed rib cage and seems to me a bit slow - he is not in any pain,and is such a happy friendly playful cat he is not spayed and very submissive. the last is a little girl kitty lucy she is about 14 weeks old she will be spayed as soon as its allowed (is it 5 months of age for a girl) the middle one and the kitty get on great eat together, play,sleep together. ive had them all since kittens they are indoor cats have lots of space toys and people to play with them .the fat cat bob is just really moody he desides if you pick him up and hates his belly being touched- i just think hes a bit of a loner with maybe some feral thrown in we have a rather large dog and other pets but no other problems i just hate to see the other two get bullied by the big one -also when i say wants to hurt the others i mean if the middle one walks past bob the fat one bob will attack him. they do some times sleep together well near each other but there is always distance.- hope you can make some sence of that thanks sarah janexx
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Post by actionfigurestepho »

We gave up trying to make our cats behave around each other. We put collars with bells on them so that one can be warned with the others are sneaking up on it. We have separate feeding areas. It's been working pretty well. Those pictures that show older cats snuggled up around each other? Those pictures LIE. I believe those cats have been tranquilized.
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Post by Allie »

:-3 My oldest male cat is the dominant one around here. He bullies our other cat Georgie. Sometimes he'll attack her to ge the spot she's in. :o She will scream bloody murder and he still goes after her. :thinking: He doesn't do this to Lucky YET she is only 3 months old. Thank god...he's 17lbs!!
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Post by cherandbuster »

Baby Rider, your information is excellent!! I have done a lot of reading on dog behavior and you are right on the money. How long did you train dogs professionally? When and why did you stop?

I have a 1 1/2 year old chihuahua and I look forward to picking your brain in the future. That is . . . if you don't mind.

You really do know your stuff! I find animal/pack behavior quite fascinating.
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Post by DesignerGal »

Val and BR!

I just wanted you to know that since I posted this, I changed the routine of who eats first so Annie (older one) eats and goes out first. Things have been wonderful around the house although she does get a little bossy with me and her daddy by barking at the back door when we have called her in for a while. Its like she is saying, ":Let me out now!"

But thanks for the help!






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Post by cherandbuster »

DesignerGal, two steps forward and one step back . . .

. . . still gets you one step ahead!

*makes note to bother BR and Val with Buster questions*;)
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Post by valerie »

(Note to self: Prepare to be bothered with Buster questions)







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Post by BabyRider »

cherandbuster wrote: Baby Rider, your information is excellent!! I have done a lot of reading on dog behavior and you are right on the money. How long did you train dogs professionally? When and why did you stop?



I have a 1 1/2 year old chihuahua and I look forward to picking your brain in the future. That is . . . if you don't mind.



You really do know your stuff! I find animal/pack behavior quite fascinating.
Thanks Cher! Dogs are and have always been a major passion of mine. Ever since I could read, I soaked up every book I could get my hands on about dog training and behavior. I still train professionally, but only occassionally, because I have a full-time job. I was a vet tech and animal behaviorist for 5 years or so, but unfortunately, bartending pays about 3 times the amount that animal medicine does. If money wasn't an issue, I'd never do anything else but work with dogs.

And you can pick my brain anytime you wish, I'll do my best to help. The "pack behavior" is always a surprise to clients in need of my help. When people hear "pack" they automatically think of wolves. Most folks don't realize that every single breed out there originated from wolves and the "pack" behavior is something they never evolved out of.

You're more than welcome to ask anything, anytime, and Val or I will be happy to help as best we can!

Are you having problems with your chihuahua now?
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Post by cherandbuster »

Thanks, Val and BR. A pleasure meeting the both of you!

Buster is an alpha male. He is a leg-lifter when he pees and marks his territory at other homes where dogs are living. I had him neutered early because of this (3 1/2 months instead of 6 months), hoping this would stop the behavior. My vet said this works in about 95% of cases.

Guess who it didn't work on?!

When I take him to the aforementioned doggie homes, I have to put a 'belly band' on him so he won't decorate their homes with urine.

At home, Buster uses wee wee pads (since I have no desire to walk him at 6:00 in February in snowy Boston!). I have to curve the pads up the woodwork so he doesn't 'paint' my lower walls as well.

From my research, I haven't seen any suggestions to curb this behavior. My vet said Buster's daddy must have been a big marker as well, and since neutering didn't stop it, it is most likely genetic.

And doggie advice on that one, my new friends?
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Post by valerie »

Have you considered crate training? And don't allow him to go in the

house AT ALL. Yes, this means getting up at 6:00 a.m. in snowy

Boston, but them's the breaks. You might be able to avoid some of that

with gradually training him over time as to when he will get to go out.

Also, treating him like a "puppy" and removing his water dish at an

earlier hour than you normally would, i.e. not let him have access

overnight.



If I were you, I would start a pretty serious program of obedience

and "N.I.L.I.F." (Nothing in life is Free) training. YOU are the alpha,

nobody pees in the house but YOU. (Sorry to be so blunt!) :o



This also means you eat first. Make him sit/stay before his meals, and

you do something called "gesture feeding" before he eats, you eat, even

if it's only a couple of soda crackers you hold over his bowl. You go

through doors first, you are the only one to sleep in the bed or sit

on the couch, things along those lines. Dogs do appreciate this.

Knowing their place in the pack (Omega to all humans, generally)

makes them feel comfortable.



Good luck, let me know how it goes!



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Post by cherandbuster »

Val, thanks for the advice.

The reason I got a really small dog was so that I could utilize the doggie pads. I'm way too unmotivated to take him out many times each and every day of the year. I know me, and I can tell you that that is not happening!

He hits the pads about 95% of the time with #2's and close to that with #1's as well. So that's really quite O. K. with me. He never marks his territory at home; it's only a problem when he's in another house and feels the need to make his presence known.

Forget about the food part -- my husband is a terrible offender of feeding him human food. We've had several discussions (alright, several arguments) about this and my hubby refuses to stop. Says that is his way of nurturing the dog.

I told him he'd better enjoy it now because he is shaving years off of Buster's life.:mad:
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Post by valerie »

I frequently tell people: It's what YOU want with your dog. Whatever

works for you guys. That's most important. Sorry to hear about hubby,

though.



I would think you probably will always have to go with the belly bands

with Buster and other places. I know people with males with a VERY

high level of training who still occasionally will mark at another dog's

house.



Sigh.



Girl pups for me!!



:-6
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cherandbuster
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Post by cherandbuster »

Val, I know what you mean!

If I had to do it all over again, I would definitely get a girl pup. No marking problems EVER!!!
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Post by idiot climber »

[QUOTE=cherandbuster]Val, thanks for the advice.

The reason I got a really small dog was so that I could utilize the doggie pads. I'm way too unmotivated to take him out many times each and every day of the year. I know me, and I can tell you that that is not happening!

you shouldn't be allowed a dog. Perhaps you should get a tamagochi instead all they require is batteries, and any other upkeep of the little digital animal is kept to a minimum and can be done from within the comfort of your own home.

I'm not an animals rights activist, just call me a concerned member of public

what the are doggie pads any how?

you must be the most boring lazy woman i have ever interacted digitally with!!!!!

Good lord!
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Post by BabyRider »

idiot climber wrote: [quote=cherandbuster]Val, thanks for the advice.



The reason I got a really small dog was so that I could utilize the doggie pads. I'm way too unmotivated to take him out many times each and every day of the year. I know me, and I can tell you that that is not happening!



you shouldn't be allowed a dog. Perhaps you should get a tamagochi instead all they require is batteries, and any other upkeep of the little digital animal is kept to a minimum and can be done from within the comfort of your own home.



I'm not an animals rights activist, just call me a concerned member of public



what the are doggie pads any how?



you must be the most boring lazy woman i have ever interacted digitally with!!!!!



Good lord!
Wow. That was one of the rudest, stupidest first posts I've seen in this place EVER. You're not going to get a real friendly reception with that kind of introduction, Idiot. Wanna try again? We're fair like that around here.
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Post by Hoopily Fruitsome »

idiot_climber >>what the are doggie pads any how?

Like pads of post-it notes. Only not quite. You peel the doggies off one at a time and then they stick to your hand and then they stick to the other hand. Come in all sorts of different colours - even saw some borzoi-and-spanner ones on the top shelf in Babcock and Furriweed's the other day.

My gran used to use them under her bonsai wripple until it got eaten by a giant aubergine.
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Post by LilacDragon »

cherandbuster wrote: Val, I know what you mean!

If I had to do it all over again, I would definitely get a girl pup. No marking problems EVER!!!


Don't be fooled, girls mark too. It just rarely goes up the walls.

My mom has a female greyhound and a female yorkie. Both of these spayed ladies feel the need to follow the males around the yard and mark behind them.
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Post by BabyRider »

And for the REAL answer as to what doggie pads are: they are a house breaking tool. An absorbent pad that puppers can go on, which is gradually moved from the house to the outside so that the dog can get used to going outdoors only.
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Post by cherandbuster »

BabyRider wrote: [quote=idiot climber]

Wow. That was one of the rudest, stupidest first posts I've seen in this place EVER. You're not going to get a real friendly reception with that kind of introduction, Idiot. Wanna try again? We're fair like that around here.


*Thanks for the support, BR.*

This newbie really does sound like an IDIOT climber.

Why would you judge my actions without gathering information first? Do you know anything at all about indoor dogs?

Are you always an IDIOT or just here in our garden?
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Post by BabyRider »

cherandbuster wrote:

*Thanks for the support, BR.*
Nobody...and I mean NOBODY is going to waltz in here and make comments like that, especially with it's very first post and not get called to the mat. That was completely uncalled for. Let's just see if it's brave enough to step up and make things right.
[FONT=Arial Black]I hope you cherish this sweet way of life, and I hope you know that it comes with a price.
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Post by cherandbuster »

BR, you call 'em like you see 'em.

Some people don't deal well with it.

But I like it.

And respect it.
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Post by BabyRider »

cherandbuster wrote: BR, you call 'em like you see 'em.



Some people don't deal well with it.



But I like it.



And respect it.
Always have, always will. And those that can't deal are usually the ones who see the truth in what I say, but can't accept or admit it.
[FONT=Arial Black]I hope you cherish this sweet way of life, and I hope you know that it comes with a price.
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Post by buttercup »

that was a really informative thread until interupted by the trolls, i had no idea you trained dogs br & think its really sad that bar work pays more, its quite the opposite here in the uk, trainers are paid very well & bar staff poorly
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Post by BabyRider »

buttercup wrote: that was a really informative thread until interupted by the trolls, i had no idea you trained dogs br & think its really sad that bar work pays more, its quite the opposite here in the uk, trainers are paid very well & bar staff poorly
Believe me, Butter, it's sad for me too. Like I said, I would work with dogs for the rest of my life if I could. Especially in behavior.
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Post by cherandbuster »

BabyRider wrote: Believe me, Butter, it's sad for me too. Like I said, I would work with dogs for the rest of my life if I could. Especially in behavior.


Imagine making a living at something you are so passionate about?

How cool would that be?:cool:
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Post by DesignerGal »

BR, how do you socialize adult cats with eachother?






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Post by cherandbuster »

DesignerGal wrote: BR, how do you socialize adult cats with eachother?


DGal, from what I've heard, cats are not highly trainable at all.

True, BR?
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Post by BabyRider »

DesignerGal wrote: BR, how do you socialize adult cats with eachother?
Very carefully!! Give me some more info, DG. Are you adding a grown cat to your household that has a grown cat? What are the sexes of each? Ages? Are they both neutered/spayed? Any other animals in the house?
[FONT=Arial Black]I hope you cherish this sweet way of life, and I hope you know that it comes with a price.
~Darrel Worley~
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Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????


We won't be punished for our sins, but BY them.




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