No to War!

A forum to discuss local issues in England.
Ozay
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Post by Ozay »

I say no to war. I say i am fed up of hearing about soldiers being killed then called Heroes in the press they journalists want to be ashamed of themselves calling them that they are just trying to brainwash people into thinking that it is all worthwhile when it isn't. Hundreds of people have been killed and the government is trying to make out that this is acceptable and that general was on about how he needs more troops. It is awful.
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cars
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Post by cars »

Just say NO! If everyone did it, maybe. . . . .
Cars :)
farmer giles
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Post by farmer giles »

Ozay;1232038 wrote: I say no to war. I say i am fed up of hearing about soldiers being killed then called Heroes in the press they journalists want to be ashamed of themselves calling them that they are just trying to brainwash people into thinking that it is all worthwhile when it isn't. Hundreds of people have been killed and the government is trying to make out that this is acceptable and that general was on about how he needs more troops. It is awful.


i have to agree 100%

ask the soldiers what they think of the war they dont want to be there

its a total waste of young life :thinking:
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Post by mikeinie »

hoppy
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Post by hoppy »

When people refuse to fight for something, they are used as slave labor by those who will fight.
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Bryn Mawr
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

hoppy;1232075 wrote: When people refuse to fight for something, they are used as slave labor by those who will fight.


When one country invades another it's called a war crime - right minded people fight for an end to war crimes.

Refusing to back a war crime is not refusing to fight.

If you are not being invaded, you how do you become a slave?
hoppy
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Post by hoppy »

Think about it.
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Post by hoppy »

Bryn Mawr;1232146 wrote: When one country invades another it's called a war crime - right minded people fight for an end to war crimes.

Refusing to back a war crime is not refusing to fight.

If you are not being invaded, you how do you become a slave?


Poster said say no to war. If you are invaded and refused to fight, presto, you are a slave. Or dead.
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Post by hoppy »

If we don't have wars, how else are we gonna use up resources and kill off some of the population? See? War is necessary.
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Bryn Mawr
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

hoppy;1232149 wrote: Poster said say no to war. If you are invaded and refused to fight, presto, you are a slave. Or dead.


When we discuss the "terrorists" in Afghanistan and Iraq I'll remind you of that comment - we've invaded so they have to fight, be enslaved or die.
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Post by gmc »

hoppy;1232075 wrote: When people refuse to fight for something, they are used as slave labor by those who will fight.


When people follow their leaders blindly and just go to war without questioning the reasons they are not a free people. Even worse is when they allow themselves to be convinced that questioning the need for war is unpatriotic and shout down those who do. They have truly forgotten what freedom is, totalitarianism can creep in anywhere and does so most easily in the guise of patriotism.



Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain."


You might not recognise the quote as from 1984 by George Orwell (I cheated looked it up I can never remember these things) a book which was banned in the united states for some years- The book was first banned in 1984 by the American Library Association because of its “bleak warning of totalitarian government and censorship.” The irony would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Is it still banned?
hoppy
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Post by hoppy »

We have a volunteer military. If we were not free, we'd all be in service. I might even be a general.
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Bryn Mawr
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

hoppy;1232205 wrote: We have a volunteer military. If we were not free, we'd all be in service. I might even be a general.


Would you care to explain the logic behind that - from here it appears to be three disconnected fragments.
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Post by gmc »

hoppy;1232205 wrote: We have a volunteer military. If we were not free, we'd all be in service. I might even be a general.


So during the vietnam war americans were not free and all those conscripts that died were slaves of the state? First time I've heard that one.
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Post by hoppy »

Yeah, everybody hates war. Just say 'no' to war. Just be careful when you say 'no'. Damn few said 'no' during WW2. 'No' sayers ran away to Canada during the 'nam era. Chicken s***s, all of 'em. The most humiliating day of my life was when the army turned me down in 1959.

War has been with us since biblical times, maybe way before that. Who knows? As long as there are governments, there will be war. Saying 'no' won't stop it. You'll just die not fighting, or worse yet, running.
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Bryn Mawr
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

hoppy;1232444 wrote: Yeah, everybody hates war. Just say 'no' to war. Just be careful when you say 'no'. Damn few said 'no' during WW2. 'No' sayers ran away to Canada during the 'nam era. Chicken s***s, all of 'em. The most humiliating day of my life was when the army turned me down in 1959.

War has been with us since biblical times, maybe way before that. Who knows? As long as there are governments, there will be war. Saying 'no' won't stop it. You'll just die not fighting, or worse yet, running.


What you do not seem to realise is that there is a vast difference between fighting the Germans during WWII where they had invaded half of Europe and invading Iraq who were no possible threat to you.

War is wrong but some have to be fought.

Starting a war is always wrong.
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Post by hoppy »

The original post didn't say this was all about Iraq. You all want to pick a fight about Iraq. So, bring your troops home from wherever the hell they are. Get 'em to just say "no" to more fighting.
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Post by gmc »

hoppy;1232444 wrote: Yeah, everybody hates war. Just say 'no' to war. Just be careful when you say 'no'. Damn few said 'no' during WW2. 'No' sayers ran away to Canada during the 'nam era. Chicken s***s, all of 'em. The most humiliating day of my life was when the army turned me down in 1959.

War has been with us since biblical times, maybe way before that. Who knows? As long as there are governments, there will be war. Saying 'no' won't stop it. You'll just die not fighting, or worse yet, running.


So if your country attacks another that poses no threat to you do you believe that people should not be allowed to protest or refuse to fight? What kind of country is america-is it one where people have to do what they are told by their government or one where people are allowed to disagree and object to what is done in their name. It kind of sounds like you would prefer to live in a totalitarian state where freedom of speech and action is not allowed.

In ww2 for the first two years most of america said no and large sections of it cheered on the nazis and your politicians did their best to stop Roosevelt selling arms to the british even if they were being sold at exorbitant prices to a nation fighting for it's very existence and your ambassador was gleefully predicting the defeat of the british. Those few of your countrymen who came across to fight lost their american nationality for daring to fight in another country's armed forces. WW2 is a very bad example for an american to use cos it was no thanks to you that we held of the nazis from invading britain and you only got involved when it finally dawned on you that there was a lot at stake and maybe your own interests could be served by getting involved.

Veitnam-having got rid of their colonial masters made the mistake of electing a left wing government and the US went in to prop up a right wing regime in the name of defending freedom. In iraq and iran you destabilised democratic governments that had the nerve to want to nationalise the oil fields and replaced then with dictators in Afghanistan you trained and armed the Taliban so they could defeat their soviet oppressors and now you are fighting another war there in the name of freedom and democracy. The irony of it all completely escapes you doesn't it? Or is it just you trust your leaders and do what you are told?
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Post by hoppy »

I'm sorry but I did not use WW2 as an example of anything. So, what's this muck up about, WW2 or Iraq? If you guys hate war so much, quit starting 'em.

We sold you guns at exorbitant prices? You shoulda just said no. Or, better yet, shouldn't have left all your guns on some beach.

Anyway, looks to me like you guys do what you are told even more than us "yanks".
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Post by gmc »

hoppy;1232506 wrote: I'm sorry but I did not use WW2 as an example of anything. So, what's this muck up about, WW2 or Iraq? If you guys hate war so much, quit starting 'em.


maybe you shpuld read your own posts

Yeah, everybody hates war. Just say 'no' to war. Just be careful when you say 'no'. Damn few said 'no' during WW2. 'No' sayers ran away to Canada during the 'nam era. Chicken s***s, all of 'em. The most humiliating day of my life was when the army turned me down in 1959.

War has been with us since biblical times, maybe way before that. Who knows? As long as there are governments, there will be war. Saying 'no' won't stop it. You'll just die not fighting, or worse yet, running.




Do you not believe that you as a citizen of the united states has the right to question exactly why your troops are being sent in to battle? Cos it comes cross that you don't think anyone has the right to challenge the necessity for war. Most sane people view warfare as a last resort. the days when war in the pursuit of empire was acceptable are gone so far as most countries are concerned
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Post by hoppy »

Here's my WW2 mention. "Damn few said 'no' during WW2".

Question why, yes, I believe in questioning government. Hey, I come from a questioning, protesting, fighting family. We've been called "that damn bunch of rabble rousers" more than once. And, the lot of us love our country. Maybe that's our downfall.

Ever see the movie "fools parade"? To get a killer called "Johnny Jesus", Kurt Russell to kill the convicts, The jailor George Kennedy, had to convince him the convicts were atheists.

We get different presidents every few years. We question them, then do what we have to do, or run away. My family don't run.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

hoppy;1232455 wrote: The original post didn't say this was all about Iraq. You all want to pick a fight about Iraq. So, bring your troops home from wherever the hell they are. Get 'em to just say "no" to more fighting.


Not pick a fight about Iraq - just using Iraq as an example of where you "logic" fails completely.

If you cannot justify the statements you have made in this thread with respect to Iraq then they are false and should be withdrawn.
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Bryn Mawr
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

hoppy;1232444 wrote: Yeah, everybody hates war. Just say 'no' to war. Just be careful when you say 'no'. Damn few said 'no' during WW2. 'No' sayers ran away to Canada during the 'nam era. Chicken s***s, all of 'em. The most humiliating day of my life was when the army turned me down in 1959.

War has been with us since biblical times, maybe way before that. Who knows? As long as there are governments, there will be war. Saying 'no' won't stop it. You'll just die not fighting, or worse yet, running.


hoppy;1232506 wrote: I'm sorry but I did not use WW2 as an example of anything. So, what's this muck up about, WW2 or Iraq? If you guys hate war so much, quit starting 'em.

We sold you guns at exorbitant prices? You shoulda just said no. Or, better yet, shouldn't have left all your guns on some beach.

Anyway, looks to me like you guys do what you are told even more than us "yanks".


You did not use WWII as an example?

You were the one who brought WWII into the debate so what is that if not using it as an example?

This debate is not about WWII or Iraq per se - it is about war in general and the justification for it.

Your ridiculous statements about us being slaves because we don't jump into war at every opportunity will be fought every time you make them.
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Post by flopstock »

Ozay;1232038 wrote: I say no to war. I say i am fed up of hearing about soldiers being killed then called Heroes in the press they journalists want to be ashamed of themselves calling them that they are just trying to brainwash people into thinking that it is all worthwhile when it isn't. Hundreds of people have been killed and the government is trying to make out that this is acceptable and that general was on about how he needs more troops. It is awful.


They are heroes. On both sides, from that sides viewpoint.



The only way to stop war is to make the politicians actually fight them. Then we would see exactly how sure they are of their stand.



I believe in protecting our own land and going after folks in other lands that attack us. Unfortunately, I also believe that we should be acting against genocide and I'm sure another item or two.



The question appears to be where do you stop being your brothers keeper. If we stand with our ally, is that fair to the enemy of our ally who hasn't harmed us?



It's a tough one. :thinking:
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Bryn Mawr
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

flopstock;1232589 wrote: They are heroes. On both sides, from that sides viewpoint.



The only way to stop war is to make the politicians actually fight them. Then we would see exactly how sure they are of their stand.



I believe in protecting our own land and going after folks in other lands that attack us. Unfortunately, I also believe that we should be acting against genocide and I'm sure another item or two.



The question appears to be where do you stop being your brothers keeper. If we stand with our ally, is that fair to the enemy of our ally who hasn't harmed us?



It's a tough one. :thinking:


If we have signed a mutual defence pact with another country then an attack on them is as an attack on us. It makes both countries less likely to be attacked if "the enemy" knows the pact will be carried through.

By its very nature it cannot be invoked unless "the enemy" starts the hostilities and by that action he has harmed "us" the defensive alliance.
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Post by hoppy »

Bryn Mawr;1232592 wrote: If we have signed a mutual defence pact with another country then an attack on them is as an attack on us. It makes both countries less likely to be attacked if "the enemy" knows the pact will be carried through.

By its very nature it cannot be invoked unless "the enemy" starts the hostilities and by that action he has harmed "us" the defensive alliance.


Well, it didn't work preceding WW2, did it?
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Post by hoppy »

Bryn Mawr;1232573 wrote: Not pick a fight about Iraq - just using Iraq as an example of where you "logic" fails completely.

If you cannot justify the statements you have made in this thread with respect to Iraq then they are false and should be withdrawn.


Sorry, my opinions are my opinions and I ain't withdrawing 'em for you nor anyone. So, huff and puff all you want.
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Post by cigar898 »

War is sometimes necessary because for some people (or some leaders of other countries), violence is the only language that is understood. Picture if you will someone breaking in to your house, armed to the teeth and hell bent on killing you. He will not stop to listen to your reason and so for you the only way for you to make it out of that alive is to grab the shotgun from under the bed and kill him before he kills you. Wars are similar, just on a larger scale.

Is war necessary?

For Americans, no.

Is war inevitable?

For Americans, yes — so long as we give politicians the power to meddle in our lives and in the lives of foreigners.

As for our military men and women being heroes, they are. It is a volunteer force that knows they might have to put their life on the line for their country. I feel sorry for those who feel their military men and women aren’t heroes. They are the ones who ensure your freedom and rights to see them as you do.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

hoppy;1232607 wrote: Sorry, my opinions are my opinions and I ain't withdrawing 'em for you nor anyone. So, huff and puff all you want.


Then expect me to take you to task every time you do - them's my opinions I I won't change them for you or anyone else.
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Bryn Mawr
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

cigar898;1232634 wrote: War is sometimes necessary because for some people (or some leaders of other countries), violence is the only language that is understood. Picture if you will someone breaking in to your house, armed to the teeth and hell bent on killing you. He will not stop to listen to your reason and so for you the only way for you to make it out of that alive is to grab the shotgun from under the bed and kill him before he kills you. Wars are similar, just on a larger scale.

Is war necessary?

For Americans, no.

Is war inevitable?

For Americans, yes — so long as we give politicians the power to meddle in our lives and in the lives of foreigners.

As for our military men and women being heroes, they are. It is a volunteer force that knows they might have to put their life on the line for their country. I feel sorry for those who feel their military men and women aren’t heroes. They are the ones who ensure your freedom and rights to see them as you do.


Fine, if someone breaks into you house and the only way you can stop it is to use violence then do so but do not break into someone else's house and then complain that they are using violence against you.

Dress it up in all the la-de-dah you like does not make it legally or morally acceptable.
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Post by hoppy »

Bryn Mawr;1233668 wrote: Then expect me to take you to task every time you do - them's my opinions I I won't change them for you or anyone else.


You just can't get through a thread without bashing the USA, can you? Expect me to retaliate whenever I see it.
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Post by mikeinie »

War sucks, that is true.

Having said that though, there is not one country on line here that did not gain their freedoms, independence, borders, and basic rights through some kind of a war.

I don’t like war, and would be very picky about choosing what I would fight and possibly die for. It would have to be a direct threat against my family or way of life, it certainly would not be oil or the over stated fear of some possible threat from some evil people out there, the politician just lie too much and you cannot believe them or their motives.

However, if I ended up having to fight in a stupid war because it really meant fighting for the future of our kids, I would want the USA and UK right there alongside me for support.
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Post by Kathy Ellen »

mikeinie;1233787 wrote: War sucks, that is true.



Having said that though, there is not one country on line here that did not gain their freedoms, independence, borders, and basic rights through some kind of a war.



I don’t like war, and would be very picky about choosing what I would fight and possibly die for. It would have to be a direct threat against my family or way of life, it certainly would not be oil or the over stated fear of some possible threat from some evil people out there, the politician just lie too much and you cannot believe them or their motives.



However, if I ended up having to fight in a stupid war because it really meant fighting for the future of our kids, I would want the USA and UK right there alongside me for support.



Thank you Mike...I agree. It's finally nice to hear some nice things said about us Yanks instead of always using the broad brush.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

hoppy;1233716 wrote: You just can't get through a thread without bashing the USA, can you? Expect me to retaliate whenever I see it.


Where do I knock the US other than when you espouse your warmongering.

Wherever you do, I retaliate - I do not start these threads.

If you continue to claim that unless we invade them we'll be slaves and that those who disagree with war are cowards then expect to be called on it.
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Post by hoppy »

Bryn Mawr;1233885 wrote: Where do I knock the US other than when you espouse your warmongering.

Wherever you do, I retaliate - I do not start these threads.

If you continue to claim that unless we invade them we'll be slaves and that those who disagree with war are cowards then expect to be called on it.


"When people refuse to fight for something, they are used as slave labor by those who will fight".

This was my first statement in this thread. YOU picked it up and ran in all directions. Typical. You are good at escalating nothing into a fight.

You ain't one of them hippie commies that other poster sees, are you?
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

hoppy;1233893 wrote: "When people refuse to fight for something, they are used as slave labor by those who will fight".

This was my first statement in this thread. YOU picked it up and ran in all directions. Typical. You are good at escalating nothing into a fight.

You ain't one of them hippie commies that other poster sees, are you?


If you believe it then justify it - I pointed out the lack of logic to it, instead of defending it you just whinge that I'm knocking the US.
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Post by hoppy »

You justified it in most of your posts. Look 'em up.

And, I'm not "whinge-ing". Mindy is here. Those are moans.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

hoppy;1233999 wrote: You justified it in most of your posts. Look 'em up.

And, I'm not "whinge-ing". Mindy is here. Those are moans.


If you are not whinging then show me where, in this thread, I have "bashed the USA".

I have asked you, several times, to explain your claims and given examples of where I think your logic fails but I cannot see anywhere that I "bash the USA".

Guilty conscience?
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Post by gmc »

When people refuse to fight for something, they are used as slave labor by those who will fight".


When people follow blindly and don't question why they are being asked to fight or don't question the motives of those who tell them fighting is necessary they are already slaves just by a different name.

And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country.


Who gets to decide what the country does? If not you then whose authority do you accept?
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Post by hoppy »

Bryn Mawr;1234074 wrote: If you are not whinging then show me where, in this thread, I have "bashed the USA".

I have asked you, several times, to explain your claims and given examples of where I think your logic fails but I cannot see anywhere that I "bash the USA".

Guilty conscience?


"You just can't get through a thread without bashing the USA, can you? Expect me to retaliate whenever I see it.".

Your types like to dance around the edges of a flat out bash with subtle inferences. They work like a prod while being hard to put a finger on but easy for the accused to wiggle out of. It must be all the eels you eat that makes you like that.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

hoppy;1234104 wrote: "You just can't get through a thread without bashing the USA, can you? Expect me to retaliate whenever I see it.".

Your types like to dance around the edges of a flat out bash with subtle inferences. They work like a prod while being hard to put a finger on but easy for the accused to wiggle out of. It must be all the eels you eat that makes you like that.


I've not even mentioned the USA - any bashing is from your guilty conscience.

I do and will bash you warmongering and not with subtle inferences but nowhere have I had a go at the US.
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Post by hoppy »

Bryn Mawr;1234180 wrote: I've not even mentioned the USA - any bashing is from your guilty conscience.

I do and will bash you warmongering and not with subtle inferences but nowhere have I had a go at the US.


See what I mean?:wah:
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

hoppy;1234185 wrote: See what I mean?:wah:


Nope - explain
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Post by farmer giles »

if i say i really dont think the British army should be invading other countries would that make me anti British then :thinking::thinking:
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Post by cigar898 »

Bryn Mawr;1233672 wrote: Fine, if someone breaks into you house and the only way you can stop it is to use violence then do so but do not break into someone else's house and then complain that they are using violence against you.

Dress it up in all the la-de-dah you like does not make it legally or morally acceptable.


Uhhhh what? If someone breaks into my house, they are not abiding by the code of living peacfully in society and thus are also capable and morally corrupt to hurt my wife and daughter........so they get hurt. My family and I live by the moral code and thus would not break into anyones house (I honestly don't see how you are able to link those two statements together) thus I don't expect to get hurt. :thinking:
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

cigar898;1234277 wrote: Uhhhh what? If someone breaks into my house, they are not abiding by the code of living peacfully in society and thus are also capable and morally corrupt to hurt my wife and daughter........so they get hurt. My family and I live by the moral code and thus would not break into anyones house (I honestly don't see how you are able to link those two statements together) thus I don't expect to get hurt. :thinking:


We are saying the same thing.

The first is a justifiable reason for using violence if that becomes the only way to resolve the situation.

The second part is the moral code by which we should be living.

I was just saying that I do not believe that we should *ever* start a war using the metaphor that you had suggested.
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No to War!

Post by Ozay »

Having watched a documentry of footage of 9/11 u can understand why America are out there fighting after what the terrorists have done to them but that doesn't give our country an excuse to be fighting there too. For decades it's like we have been the 51 state of America but hopefully this may change in our stupid action of realeasing that terrorist from prison who should have been there until he died an agonising death after what he was involved in with the lockerbie bombing. They make out that it was compassion, right oh....it wasn't anything to do with an Oil deal then? politicans can lie as much as they like and they will supported by the war loving tabloids.
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

No to War!

Post by gmc »

Ozay;1239421 wrote: Having watched a documentry of footage of 9/11 u can understand why America are out there fighting after what the terrorists have done to them but that doesn't give our country an excuse to be fighting there too. For decades it's like we have been the 51 state of America but hopefully this may change in our stupid action of realeasing that terrorist from prison who should have been there until he died an agonising death after what he was involved in with the lockerbie bombing. They make out that it was compassion, right oh....it wasn't anything to do with an Oil deal then? politicans can lie as much as they like and they will supported by the war loving tabloids.


It wasn't iraqi terrorists that attacked them and anyone pointing out that simple fact got accused of being on the side of terrorist. There is little doubt that intelligence reports were altered to make the case for war both here and in the states and that case had bugger all to do with terrorism. Have a read of the 911 commission report and see if you can find the connection between Saddam Hussein and osama bin laden-they couldn't. The best way to stop terrorist is cut off the funding-arguably it was the ending of financial support from the states after 911 that finally brought the IRA to the peace table-although the protestants were just as vicious imo.

They should have gone after the saudis who are behind all this anyway. Where does the money for all this terrorism come from and which banks are laundering it? If you believe they can't find out if they wanted to then you are naive. If the US and UK hadn't trained the mujahadeen and supplied with air to ground missiles maybe the Russians would have defeated the talban instead of us trying to do it now. But if you point these things out you are accused of being unpatriotic or anti american. The taliban got to power because of western support, it's unpalatable but that doesn't make it any less true.

posted by hoppy

When people refuse to fight for something, they are used as slave labor by those who will fight.


My fathers generation and probably yours as well eventually (not sure of your age) and probably Bryn Mawrs went to war to fight a group of people who used blind nationalism my country right or wrong to lead their people in to a war that left their country in ruins and millions dead. We did it when no one else would and American politicians cheered on the germans and did their best to stop us being able to buy weapons from the states in order to defend ourselves. The people we fought were called nazis who managed to give blind patriotism a bad name and probably made sure that at least the next couple of generations in europe would not be so ready to go to war without questioning their leaders motives. He who follows blindly is a slave in all but name.

WW2 started on the 3rd September 1939. Before you come away with trite phrases about when people refuse to fight for something maybe you should go back and wonder why it took america so long to realise that maybe some things are worth fighting for and perhaps you might understand why asinine jingoistic comments receive such a hostile reaction from posters on the other side of the pond.
hoppy
Posts: 4561
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:58 am

No to War!

Post by hoppy »

Enjoy your oil.
luciferjohn
Posts: 245
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:18 pm

No to War!

Post by luciferjohn »

hello:D

the problem is that most of us americans forget history, if we didnt we wouldnt repeat it, no im no anti-american or whatever,i just pay attention,our bigest problem is we have alot of blind loyalists that are loyal to a party or way of thinking, so when someone in power says this is the way it is we have a tendancy to believe them, unfortunatly most of our leaders only worry about their own wants not that of the people or our allies,this war has been a drain on all of us,i think we should have gone after a real target instead of saddam, yes he was a psyco but he kept the middle east in check for the most part, he also had no part in 9-11,as per the 9-11 report,we also had no congressional backing to go after him, our leader did anyway, we have alot of mistakes leading up to this point but pointing them out and argueing over them, wont change them,we should be accepting to the fact that people arent going to agree with everything we do, and try to figure how to end this thing quicker if we can,we should be working as a world not individuals pointing out differances.:-4:yh_peace

any way do i think the war should be over , considering my cousins are serving yes, am i on the side of the terrorists,no,should we stay with it as long as it takes,at least untill theres some safty back in the world.

have a good night everyone;):yh_bigsmi:yh_peace
:driving:lookout smart guy talkin:guitarist:yh_devil:yh_ghost:

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