Trump restarts Middle East conflict

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:10 am

Well, he hadn't dominated global headlines for a few days so he had to do something: Move the US embassy to Jerusalem. That's going to end peace in the area.

I gather it was an election commitment to his far right religious support. Hypocrites who create conflict and love to feed Death. If there is a Hell, they are already booked in to burn for all eternity.

No support for the move from anyone yet, though I gather they hope the Czech Republic and Philippines might follow the US.

Saw an interview with Tom Hanks the other day. He was asked how he'd play Trump. He said that he'd play him as a practical man, but one without empathy, without imagination and an inability to consider anything more than 48 hours ahead. Interesting, I thought.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:39 am

Just watched the reaction in Jerusalem on the news, it has started.

Post by **spot** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:10 am

Should I put the case, as I see it?

I need at least three words common throughout the thread. Israel, the part governed by the Knesset, okay? Palestine, the part of the Gaza strip and the West bank where Palestinians are allowed to live, okay? And the two parts added together which I'll call the Mandate area. All I need is shorthand words that mean the same thing throughout.

The peace thrust this century has been for a two state solution, two sovereign states, no territorial sharing or overlap. That process has gone nowhere and can never go anywhere because (1) Israel is not going to allow Palestine its own foreign policy, specifically any capacity to wage war and (2) there's too little of the West Bank left for Palestinians to get around in and (3) an independent Palestine would allow a right of return and that's not going to be allowed either.

So, if there's a solution to be found which allows the residents of Israel and Palestine to co-exist it has to be in a single state encompassing all the Mandate, and the capital of that single state is obviously going to be Jerusalem the way it always was until the Mandate was partitioned in 1948.

The problem with governing the single state is the lack of rights currently granted to Palestinians living within the Mandate area. The Palestinians have their rights curtailed in at least terms of mobility and a vote in Knesset elections and the right to own property anywhere in Israel, to pick three. It comes down to discriminatory treatment, and it's not as though the discrimination is invisible.

Constructing a single state over the entire territory, with citizenship for all and outlawing discrimination, provides the only available solution to the current impasse. And where's the capital? Jerusalem. Why would anyone want it anywhere else?

I suggest President Trump may have just dynamited a logjam and that a just solution can now be pursued. If everyone knows he's now wrecked all chance of a two state solution then that's ideal.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:17 am

It might work out the way you say. We can certainly hope. It just requires more sense compassion and understanding than there ever seems to have been over the issue. I'll believe it when I see it.

magentaflame · Post by **magentaflame** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:14 pm

Im still trying to figure out why he would have a go at May whilst she was still touring the middle east. Trump does not like to be out of the loop does he? Now this.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:27 am

spot;1515528 wrote: Should I put the case, as I see it?

I need at least three words common throughout the thread. Israel, the part governed by the Knesset, okay? Palestine, the part of the Gaza strip and the West bank where Palestinians are allowed to live, okay? And the two parts added together which I'll call the Mandate area. All I need is shorthand words that mean the same thing throughout.

The peace thrust this century has been for a two state solution, two sovereign states, no territorial sharing or overlap. That process has gone nowhere and can never go anywhere because (1) Israel is not going to allow Palestine its own foreign policy, specifically any capacity to wage war and (2) there's too little of the West Bank left for Palestinians to get around in and (3) an independent Palestine would allow a right of return and that's not going to be allowed either.

So, if there's a solution to be found which allows the residents of Israel and Palestine to co-exist it has to be in a single state encompassing all the Mandate, and the capital of that single state is obviously going to be Jerusalem the way it always was until the Mandate was partitioned in 1948.

The problem with governing the single state is the lack of rights currently granted to Palestinians living within the Mandate area. The Palestinians have their rights curtailed in at least terms of mobility and a vote in Knesset elections and the right to own property anywhere in Israel, to pick three. It comes down to discriminatory treatment, and it's not as though the discrimination is invisible.

Constructing a single state over the entire territory, with citizenship for all and outlawing discrimination, provides the only available solution to the current impasse. And where's the capital? Jerusalem. Why would anyone want it anywhere else?

I suggest President Trump may have just dynamited a logjam and that a just solution can now be pursued. If everyone knows he's now wrecked all chance of a two state solution then that's ideal.

As I recall the constitution of Israel, as set up by the Israelis when they declared UDI, guaranteed the resident Arab/Palestinian population equal rights. That makes a large percentage of the laws passed in the last forty years unconstitutional.

Until and unless those laws are repealed there is no possibility of a single state solution to the problem.

Post by **spot** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:03 am

Israel was set up by a vote of the United Nations with no veto by any Security Council member. After which there was a lot of shooting, a lot of taking over Arab villages and a lot of refugee Palestinians camped in Lebanon and Jordan, having fled their homeland. Those original 1948 UN demarcations have since been moved too. Bosnian Serbs got slapped down for doing no more than this. A comparative body count might even find I'm right as far as that goes.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:00 am

spot;1515772 wrote: Israel was set up by a vote of the United Nations with no veto by any Security Council member. After which there was a lot of shooting, a lot of taking over Arab villages and a lot of refugee Palestinians camped in Lebanon and Jordan, having fled their homeland. Those original 1948 UN demarcations have since been moved too. Bosnian Serbs got slapped down for doing no more than this. A comparative body count might even find I'm right as far as that goes.

All you say is true but they still declared UDI on the night before the official transfer of power was due to take place. As far as I can gather this was so that they could impose their own rules rather than accept those set by the UN and the UK.

magentaflame · Post by **magentaflame** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:58 pm

Clodhopper;1515524 wrote: Well, he hadn't dominated global headlines for a few days so he had to do something: Move the US embassy to Jerusalem. That's going to end peace in the area.

I gather it was an election commitment to his far right religious support. Hypocrites who create conflict and love to feed Death. If there is a Hell, they are already booked in to burn for all eternity.

No support for the move from anyone yet, though I gather they hope the Czech Republic and Philippines might follow the US.

Saw an interview with Tom Hanks the other day. He was asked how he'd play Trump. He said that he'd play him as a practical man, but one without empathy, without imagination and an inability to consider anything more than 48 hours ahead. Interesting, I thought.

Self prophesy on behalf of the religious right. They've always believed that Armageddon is to begin in the middle east. And if doesn't look like it will happen as they believe it should then they'll make damn sure it does.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:23 pm

In 1995 United States Congress passed the Jerusalem Embassy Act.

Over the years several United States presidents gave lip service to that act.

FLASHBACK: All The Times Past Presidents Promised To Move US Embassy To Jerusalem

As much as I loathe President Trump and am reluctant to give him credit for things I like, moving the embassy gets two thumbs up!

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:26 pm

tude dog;1516129 wrote: In 1995 United States Congress passed the Jerusalem Embassy Act.

Over the years several United States presidents gave lip service to that act.

FLASHBACK: All The Times Past Presidents Promised To Move US Embassy To Jerusalem

As much as I loathe President Trump and am reluctant to give him credit for things I like, moving the embassy gets two thumbs up!Why is this important?

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:35 pm

I've been seeing reports that Trump is doing a lot to please his core support and this move of the Embassy is very important to the religious right. What worries me is that these people want this for reasons to do with their particular reading of the Bible and worryingly, for many it really does seem they are trying to bring on the End of the World and moving the Embassy to the Holy City is a definite part of that.

Post by **spot** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:42 pm

Clodhopper;1516161 wrote: I've been seeing reports that Trump is doing a lot to please his core support and this move of the Embassy is very important to the religious right. What worries me is that these people want this for reasons to do with their particular reading of the Bible and worryingly, for many it really does seem they are trying to bring on the End of the World and moving the Embassy to the Holy City is a definite part of that.

As is getting the Persians to attack from the North, if I remember right.

I'm changing my name by deed poll to Abaddon and ordering locusts wholesale.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:57 pm

I wouldn't put it past the American intelligence community to dress up like Persians.