OpenMind;1157477 wrote: With all due respect, Gill, they voluntarily signed up. No one forced them to do that and we don't exercise conscription in the UK at the moment. Once in, they know full well that they have to follow orders.
Your quite right OM they are volunteers not conscripts.
They dont have a choice as to what they do when they volunteer. The Military can only operate properly and efficiently when it's soldiers/airmen/sailors do as they are told, period. The old premise of "when you are told to jump you dont argue, you ask "how high" " saves lives
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
Chezzie;1157580 wrote: British citizens living as if they were in a Muslim country! Live here and respect us I say. Still have your religion and live your life as you please but dont expect me to praise their actions towards our soldiers.
I am so proud of all our service men and women. Its a disgrace in what the demonstrators were allowed to do. I am also so proud of my cousin Sean who served in Iraq.
It seems to me that if the protesters thought they lived in a Muslim country they'd have behaved quite differently. I just can't see what you base "British citizens living as if they were in a Muslim country" on, it's meaningless as far as I can tell. Obviously Britain's a multicultural country with no predominant faith. Around a half of all church attendances in England are Muslim, for example, and around half are Christian.
Politeness demands that I leave my views of serving personnel unexpressed but anyone now volunteering for service in the British armed forces, knowing the dreadful abuse our politicians have made of those forces, is morally personally responsible for all the deaths which result from their deployment from the time they volunteer. There are some possible circumstances in which Britain's armed forces might be deployed abroad for good rather than for criminal purposes but nothing in the Iraq or Afghan deployments qualify as such.
Those who have actually been deployed to those theatres should slink home, not parade. There's no glory in illegal regime change.
I am so proud of all our service men and women. Its a disgrace in what the demonstrators were allowed to do. I am also so proud of my cousin Sean who served in Iraq.
It seems to me that if the protesters thought they lived in a Muslim country they'd have behaved quite differently. I just can't see what you base "British citizens living as if they were in a Muslim country" on, it's meaningless as far as I can tell. Obviously Britain's a multicultural country with no predominant faith. Around a half of all church attendances in England are Muslim, for example, and around half are Christian.
Politeness demands that I leave my views of serving personnel unexpressed but anyone now volunteering for service in the British armed forces, knowing the dreadful abuse our politicians have made of those forces, is morally personally responsible for all the deaths which result from their deployment from the time they volunteer. There are some possible circumstances in which Britain's armed forces might be deployed abroad for good rather than for criminal purposes but nothing in the Iraq or Afghan deployments qualify as such.
Those who have actually been deployed to those theatres should slink home, not parade. There's no glory in illegal regime change.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
spot;1157615 wrote: It seems to me that if the protesters thought they lived in a Muslim country they'd have behaved quite differently. I just can't see what you base "British citizens living as if they were in a Muslim country" on, it's meaningless as far as I can tell. Obviously Britain's a multicultural country with no predominant faith. Around a half of all church attendances in England are Muslim, for example, and around half are Christian.
Politeness demands that I leave my views of serving personnel unexpressed but anyone now volunteering for service in the British armed forces, knowing the dreadful abuse our politicians have made of those forces, is morally personally responsible for all the deaths which result from their deployment from the time they volunteer. There are some possible circumstances in which Britain's armed forces might be deployed abroad for good rather than for criminal purposes but nothing in the Iraq or Afghan deployments qualify as such.
Those who have actually been deployed to those theatres should slink home, not parade. There's no glory in illegal regime change.
Your opinion and your entitled to it but I dont agree at all with it so we shall agree to disagree and now hold hands and dance round the maypole singing The wicker man :guitarist
Politeness demands that I leave my views of serving personnel unexpressed but anyone now volunteering for service in the British armed forces, knowing the dreadful abuse our politicians have made of those forces, is morally personally responsible for all the deaths which result from their deployment from the time they volunteer. There are some possible circumstances in which Britain's armed forces might be deployed abroad for good rather than for criminal purposes but nothing in the Iraq or Afghan deployments qualify as such.
Those who have actually been deployed to those theatres should slink home, not parade. There's no glory in illegal regime change.
Your opinion and your entitled to it but I dont agree at all with it so we shall agree to disagree and now hold hands and dance round the maypole singing The wicker man :guitarist
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
spot;1157439 wrote: I speak from a position of total ignorance here but you're in a perfect position to set me straight.
If you're a Proddie and you meet someone, can you tell whether they're Papist by the shape of their head or the colour of their eyes or whether they have a Roman nose? And vice versa? Don't mistake me, I'm not being funny and I honestly don't know what the answer is, maybe you can and maybe you can't. I'm not talking about dress, I'm not talking about accent, I'm talking about looks.
Because.
It seems to me that the result of births out of wedlock and such (since there were few mixed marriages, that's the only reason I mention wedlock), where you can't tell by looking, can naturally become as bigoted as the family they grow up with. That, I'm assuming, would be the Irish position (and yes, I know there were far fewer births out of wedlock and such back in the old days).
The attraction of how things are going in England is that a significant proportion of children don't have that problem, they can easily see they have a mixed heritage just by using a mirror. So can their mates. I think that fundamentally changes the equation. Simply by exchanging body fluids the English are solving the temporary problem of assimilating the current wave of immigration.
As to fixing fundamentalist antagonism instead of racial abuse, I'm working on it. There are precious few fundamentalist Christians descended from the Indian Subcontinent though, and not a lot of fundamentalist Muslims descended from Anglo-Saxon roots. A century or two of teenage rebellion will have an effect there as well.
Interesting as always spot.
In terms of your question, Ireland north and south is very different now. I am from the south so my experience of the North is limited, but I have been up in Belfast and about the place on occasion. The first couple of times are strange, as there is no actual border, you just notice the road signs change and the built environment up there looks like england, the roads, the paving stones, the brickwork, the little things, and of course then all the Union flags and all of that stuff. Its kinda trippy for us, I am sure its probably similar coming down the other way if you haven't done it before.
As for who people are, in the South no, you can't tell by looking but you can generally make an educated guess by their name and social manners, protestants in the South are generally anglicans and are totally integrated within the community, but would generally be more class concious, more anglified, and have a higher social status than your average catholic. Anyone who isn't a protestant in the south is going to be by default a Catholic, as thats 95 percent of the population.
The north is way more complicated, and you would have to ask a northerner to get a proper answer, but I would say that in general yes, they seem to be able to tell each other apart almost immediately, certainly after a couple of rudimentary questions they will know. We can sort of tell Unionists from Catholics, but from the way they dress and talk, not from the way they look, also Southern's knowledge of the North is actually very limited, we don't go there much (discounting the cross-border shopping thing), and they don't come down here, certainly not unionist people by and large, but of course that's a generalization.
People are obviously extremely concious of identity in the North, while in the South you can more or less presume everyone is the same, so people are not quite as identity concious, and are more secure in who they are, though as we have more inward immigration of non-Irish I guess that might change, though I doubt it really.
What I notice in England when I am there, is that you can certainly tell the old ethnic divides as you move south to north, wheras in the south and east you get lots of largish germanic saxony-looking english people, as you move north and west, they tend to get less of those types and more of the smaller and wirey people, so you can see the more Celtic-looking stock coming in, its interesting.
If you're a Proddie and you meet someone, can you tell whether they're Papist by the shape of their head or the colour of their eyes or whether they have a Roman nose? And vice versa? Don't mistake me, I'm not being funny and I honestly don't know what the answer is, maybe you can and maybe you can't. I'm not talking about dress, I'm not talking about accent, I'm talking about looks.
Because.
It seems to me that the result of births out of wedlock and such (since there were few mixed marriages, that's the only reason I mention wedlock), where you can't tell by looking, can naturally become as bigoted as the family they grow up with. That, I'm assuming, would be the Irish position (and yes, I know there were far fewer births out of wedlock and such back in the old days).
The attraction of how things are going in England is that a significant proportion of children don't have that problem, they can easily see they have a mixed heritage just by using a mirror. So can their mates. I think that fundamentally changes the equation. Simply by exchanging body fluids the English are solving the temporary problem of assimilating the current wave of immigration.
As to fixing fundamentalist antagonism instead of racial abuse, I'm working on it. There are precious few fundamentalist Christians descended from the Indian Subcontinent though, and not a lot of fundamentalist Muslims descended from Anglo-Saxon roots. A century or two of teenage rebellion will have an effect there as well.
Interesting as always spot.
In terms of your question, Ireland north and south is very different now. I am from the south so my experience of the North is limited, but I have been up in Belfast and about the place on occasion. The first couple of times are strange, as there is no actual border, you just notice the road signs change and the built environment up there looks like england, the roads, the paving stones, the brickwork, the little things, and of course then all the Union flags and all of that stuff. Its kinda trippy for us, I am sure its probably similar coming down the other way if you haven't done it before.
As for who people are, in the South no, you can't tell by looking but you can generally make an educated guess by their name and social manners, protestants in the South are generally anglicans and are totally integrated within the community, but would generally be more class concious, more anglified, and have a higher social status than your average catholic. Anyone who isn't a protestant in the south is going to be by default a Catholic, as thats 95 percent of the population.
The north is way more complicated, and you would have to ask a northerner to get a proper answer, but I would say that in general yes, they seem to be able to tell each other apart almost immediately, certainly after a couple of rudimentary questions they will know. We can sort of tell Unionists from Catholics, but from the way they dress and talk, not from the way they look, also Southern's knowledge of the North is actually very limited, we don't go there much (discounting the cross-border shopping thing), and they don't come down here, certainly not unionist people by and large, but of course that's a generalization.
People are obviously extremely concious of identity in the North, while in the South you can more or less presume everyone is the same, so people are not quite as identity concious, and are more secure in who they are, though as we have more inward immigration of non-Irish I guess that might change, though I doubt it really.
What I notice in England when I am there, is that you can certainly tell the old ethnic divides as you move south to north, wheras in the south and east you get lots of largish germanic saxony-looking english people, as you move north and west, they tend to get less of those types and more of the smaller and wirey people, so you can see the more Celtic-looking stock coming in, its interesting.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
spot;1157615 wrote: It seems to me that if the protesters thought they lived in a Muslim country they'd have behaved quite differently. I just can't see what you base "British citizens living as if they were in a Muslim country" on, it's meaningless as far as I can tell. Obviously Britain's a multicultural country with no predominant faith. Around a half of all church attendances in England are Muslim, for example, and around half are Christian.
Politeness demands that I leave my views of serving personnel unexpressed but anyone now volunteering for service in the British armed forces, knowing the dreadful abuse our politicians have made of those forces, is morally personally responsible for all the deaths which result from their deployment from the time they volunteer. There are some possible circumstances in which Britain's armed forces might be deployed abroad for good rather than for criminal purposes but nothing in the Iraq or Afghan deployments qualify as such.
Those who have actually been deployed to those theatres should slink home, not parade. There's no glory in illegal regime change.
Britain is a Christian country Spot, thats a ridiculous statement to make. British "Multiculturalism" is a government policy of the last 30 years laid on top of 1600 years of Western European Christianity. The latter is the reality, the former is so much sand that will blow away in a strong wind.
The fundamental fact of Western Civilization is that its based on Greece, Rome, and the Latin Christian Church. Whether that's a good or bad thing is another argument, however, whether that's the reality is unquestionable.
As to your comments about serving military personel, working under military chains of command and discipline, I would say those comments are uncharitable at best.
Politeness demands that I leave my views of serving personnel unexpressed but anyone now volunteering for service in the British armed forces, knowing the dreadful abuse our politicians have made of those forces, is morally personally responsible for all the deaths which result from their deployment from the time they volunteer. There are some possible circumstances in which Britain's armed forces might be deployed abroad for good rather than for criminal purposes but nothing in the Iraq or Afghan deployments qualify as such.
Those who have actually been deployed to those theatres should slink home, not parade. There's no glory in illegal regime change.
Britain is a Christian country Spot, thats a ridiculous statement to make. British "Multiculturalism" is a government policy of the last 30 years laid on top of 1600 years of Western European Christianity. The latter is the reality, the former is so much sand that will blow away in a strong wind.
The fundamental fact of Western Civilization is that its based on Greece, Rome, and the Latin Christian Church. Whether that's a good or bad thing is another argument, however, whether that's the reality is unquestionable.
As to your comments about serving military personel, working under military chains of command and discipline, I would say those comments are uncharitable at best.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
Snowfire;1157614 wrote: Your quite right OM they are volunteers not conscripts.
They dont have a choice as to what they do when they volunteer. The Military can only operate properly and efficiently when it's soldiers/airmen/sailors do as they are told, period. The old premise of "when you are told to jump you dont argue, you ask "how high" " saves lives
Absolutely. No laughing aside, but an army depends on this dedication and discipline. It has been proven as an effective method for winning battles.
Over the last two decades, kids have been signing up in order to learn a trade. You can't blame them for that. These are kids that have been born to women who have no life other than what social welfare has to offer.
What else are they to do? They are condemned by society just for being born for a moment of lust. And in their hearts, they love their mothers, and secretly love their fathers.
Their fathers tell them that no one's going to take care of them but themselves. Their mothers, like any mother upon this earth, love them.
They see an opportunity not only to learn a trade, but to perhaps make a life for their own children.
Can you blame them for that? This is our army.:-1
They dont have a choice as to what they do when they volunteer. The Military can only operate properly and efficiently when it's soldiers/airmen/sailors do as they are told, period. The old premise of "when you are told to jump you dont argue, you ask "how high" " saves lives
Absolutely. No laughing aside, but an army depends on this dedication and discipline. It has been proven as an effective method for winning battles.
Over the last two decades, kids have been signing up in order to learn a trade. You can't blame them for that. These are kids that have been born to women who have no life other than what social welfare has to offer.
What else are they to do? They are condemned by society just for being born for a moment of lust. And in their hearts, they love their mothers, and secretly love their fathers.
Their fathers tell them that no one's going to take care of them but themselves. Their mothers, like any mother upon this earth, love them.
They see an opportunity not only to learn a trade, but to perhaps make a life for their own children.
Can you blame them for that? This is our army.:-1
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
OpenMind;1157686 wrote: Absolutely. No laughing aside, but an army depends on this dedication and discipline. It has been proven as an effective method for winning battles.
Over the last two decades, kids have been signing up in order to learn a trade. You can't blame them for that. These are kids that have been born to women who have no life other than what social welfare has to offer.
What else are they to do? They are condemned by society just for being born for a moment of lust. And in their hearts, they love their mothers, and secretly love their fathers.
Their fathers tell them that no one's going to take care of them but themselves. Their mothers, like any mother upon this earth, love them.
They see an opportunity not only to learn a trade, but to perhaps make a life for their own children.
Can you blame them for that? This is our army.:-1
also we may actually need an army one day,,,
Over the last two decades, kids have been signing up in order to learn a trade. You can't blame them for that. These are kids that have been born to women who have no life other than what social welfare has to offer.
What else are they to do? They are condemned by society just for being born for a moment of lust. And in their hearts, they love their mothers, and secretly love their fathers.
Their fathers tell them that no one's going to take care of them but themselves. Their mothers, like any mother upon this earth, love them.
They see an opportunity not only to learn a trade, but to perhaps make a life for their own children.
Can you blame them for that? This is our army.:-1
also we may actually need an army one day,,,
FOC THREAD PART1
In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
Martin Luther King Jr.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
Hundreds of people have taken to the streets of Bolton to cheer an army regiment.
Crowds watched to see the 1st Battalion the Duke of Lancaster's Regiment, awarded the freedom of the city.
The honour was given to 150 soldiers in the battalion for their service in Iraq where the were on tour until May 2008.
"In doing this, we acknowledge the crucial role played by the serving officers, warrant officers, senior non-commissioned officers and Kingsmen and their predecessors."
Whether you agree or disagree with war, those soldiers followed orders off their bosses, like we all do in a job and in my eyes should be applauded not abused.
Its the government/politics who make the decisions not the soldiers who after all, are serving their country and that goes for all Army ect.
Crowds watched to see the 1st Battalion the Duke of Lancaster's Regiment, awarded the freedom of the city.
The honour was given to 150 soldiers in the battalion for their service in Iraq where the were on tour until May 2008.
"In doing this, we acknowledge the crucial role played by the serving officers, warrant officers, senior non-commissioned officers and Kingsmen and their predecessors."
Whether you agree or disagree with war, those soldiers followed orders off their bosses, like we all do in a job and in my eyes should be applauded not abused.
Its the government/politics who make the decisions not the soldiers who after all, are serving their country and that goes for all Army ect.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
Galbally;1157668 wrote: Britain is a Christian country Spot, thats a ridiculous statement to make. I offered a single fact to back it up - "Around a half of all church attendances in England are Muslim, for example, and around half are Christian". If you think it's not true I could go and find the reason I thought it was.
I could perhaps also demonstrate that most English people haven't been inside a church for the last - shall we say five? - years other than for a wedding or funeral. If we accept that Christianity is a community of worship I think that suggests to me most of England is non-Christian. What other test would you apply?
I could perhaps also demonstrate that most English people haven't been inside a church for the last - shall we say five? - years other than for a wedding or funeral. If we accept that Christianity is a community of worship I think that suggests to me most of England is non-Christian. What other test would you apply?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
G#Gill;1157476 wrote: Just a word to Oscar - those returning soldiers were not volunteers ! They are conscripts and they go and do what they are ordered to do, and they have no choice unless they want to be arrested for AWOL. They were sent to Afghanistan and Iraq, they did a job that they were ordered to do, under very dangerous and difficult conditions. They returned, and they were welcomed back by the British as heros!
I cannot see what the argument is about.
Those muslim demonstrators were totally out-of-order. I wonder what would have happened if the same situation had arisen in Afghanistan, or Iraq. Can you imagine the situation in Bahgdad if returning Iraqi soldiers were demonstrated against by a mob of British inhabitants waving anti-Iraqi slogans !!!!! Since WW11 Neither Britain nor American has had reason to deploy troops to defend the homeland from Invasion. Every recruit to the services here (and Mr O has nephews in the RAF) KNOW they are signing up to see active service on foriegn soil......... not here. WE are the invaders on foriegn soil, they are not bravely defending their own country.
I cannot see what the argument is about.
Those muslim demonstrators were totally out-of-order. I wonder what would have happened if the same situation had arisen in Afghanistan, or Iraq. Can you imagine the situation in Bahgdad if returning Iraqi soldiers were demonstrated against by a mob of British inhabitants waving anti-Iraqi slogans !!!!! Since WW11 Neither Britain nor American has had reason to deploy troops to defend the homeland from Invasion. Every recruit to the services here (and Mr O has nephews in the RAF) KNOW they are signing up to see active service on foriegn soil......... not here. WE are the invaders on foriegn soil, they are not bravely defending their own country.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
Chezzie;1157465 wrote: Makes me wonder what would happen to any Brit protesters who decided to go over to a Muslim country and protest at the lack of their women's rights ect....I reckon it wouldn't be seen as freedom of speech and more likely they would get arrested.
Have you actually any idea of the racism in this country by English to Muslims? Unless you live among a community and work with them, you would not.
I feel the protesters are extremists out to provoke but it is the hypocricy of the British that gets me.
Every weekend, i mind one of our muslim friends take-aways where all the staff are muslim and speak little English. For this reason, even small kids coming in for a bag of fries think it's ok to mock their accents, call them names and generally behave like arrseholes infront of them. These kids learn this from some-where. It's not taught in schools..... it comes from the parents. One night Mr O steeped in to help with some deliveries. A shaven headed tattoo-ed F***wit answered the door and the first thing he said was 'Thank ******* for that, some-one British'. Mr O then quite rightly asked him that if he felt so strongly, why did he put money in their till and eat their food?
Why do so many British object to immigration? From what i have seen...... Jealously. They are quite happy to fall out the pub and expect the local Turks who have worked a 14 hour day to still be there at 1 in the morning when they want a kebab. When that same Turk is driving a new BMW from the fruits of his success after he has paid his tax the same as any one else, the British then get white and spitefull.
Total hypocrisy.
Have you actually any idea of the racism in this country by English to Muslims? Unless you live among a community and work with them, you would not.
I feel the protesters are extremists out to provoke but it is the hypocricy of the British that gets me.
Every weekend, i mind one of our muslim friends take-aways where all the staff are muslim and speak little English. For this reason, even small kids coming in for a bag of fries think it's ok to mock their accents, call them names and generally behave like arrseholes infront of them. These kids learn this from some-where. It's not taught in schools..... it comes from the parents. One night Mr O steeped in to help with some deliveries. A shaven headed tattoo-ed F***wit answered the door and the first thing he said was 'Thank ******* for that, some-one British'. Mr O then quite rightly asked him that if he felt so strongly, why did he put money in their till and eat their food?
Why do so many British object to immigration? From what i have seen...... Jealously. They are quite happy to fall out the pub and expect the local Turks who have worked a 14 hour day to still be there at 1 in the morning when they want a kebab. When that same Turk is driving a new BMW from the fruits of his success after he has paid his tax the same as any one else, the British then get white and spitefull.
Total hypocrisy.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
OpenMind;1157686 wrote: Absolutely. No laughing aside, but an army depends on this dedication and discipline. It has been proven as an effective method for winning battles.
Over the last two decades, kids have been signing up in order to learn a trade. You can't blame them for that. These are kids that have been born to women who have no life other than what social welfare has to offer.
What else are they to do? They are condemned by society just for being born for a moment of lust. And in their hearts, they love their mothers, and secretly love their fathers.
Their fathers tell them that no one's going to take care of them but themselves. Their mothers, like any mother upon this earth, love them.
They see an opportunity not only to learn a trade, but to perhaps make a life for their own children.
Can you blame them for that? This is our army.:-1
I agree with you OM, sadly there are many youngsters who sign on just to get a trade, and I think many of them do not really believe they will have to put their lives on the line in another country, at the say so of pathetic politicians.
Over the last two decades, kids have been signing up in order to learn a trade. You can't blame them for that. These are kids that have been born to women who have no life other than what social welfare has to offer.
What else are they to do? They are condemned by society just for being born for a moment of lust. And in their hearts, they love their mothers, and secretly love their fathers.
Their fathers tell them that no one's going to take care of them but themselves. Their mothers, like any mother upon this earth, love them.
They see an opportunity not only to learn a trade, but to perhaps make a life for their own children.
Can you blame them for that? This is our army.:-1
I agree with you OM, sadly there are many youngsters who sign on just to get a trade, and I think many of them do not really believe they will have to put their lives on the line in another country, at the say so of pathetic politicians.
I'm a Saga-lout, growing old disgracefully
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
G#Gill;1157847 wrote: I agree with you OM, sadly there are many youngsters who sign on just to get a trade, and I think many of them do not really believe they will have to put their lives on the line in another country, at the say so of pathetic politicians.
Could we try saying "many of them do not really believe they will have to put local residents lives on the line in another country" instead? It means so much more in the context of victory parades.
Could we try saying "many of them do not really believe they will have to put local residents lives on the line in another country" instead? It means so much more in the context of victory parades.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
spot;1157857 wrote: Could we try saying "many of them do not really believe they will have to put local residents lives on the line in another country" instead? It means so much more in the context of victory parades.
Well said Spot.
And Gill......the days of joining the services to learn a trade are long gone. Recruitment figures for US and British forces have seen a huge general decline since Vietnam, The Falklands, Iraq and Afghanistan. They know they will go to foriegn soin and not so much the trade. The Government has nothing to do with the initial descision by any new recruit. They do not have a gun to their heads to sign up and they certainly are not kept in the dark as to their possible drafts to foriegn soil.
It was a Conservative government that took us into a financially disasterous and casualtie war in the Falklands. You can't pin that one on Blair and New Labour.
Well said Spot.
And Gill......the days of joining the services to learn a trade are long gone. Recruitment figures for US and British forces have seen a huge general decline since Vietnam, The Falklands, Iraq and Afghanistan. They know they will go to foriegn soin and not so much the trade. The Government has nothing to do with the initial descision by any new recruit. They do not have a gun to their heads to sign up and they certainly are not kept in the dark as to their possible drafts to foriegn soil.
It was a Conservative government that took us into a financially disasterous and casualtie war in the Falklands. You can't pin that one on Blair and New Labour.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
spot;1157857 wrote: Could we try saying "many of them do not really believe they will have to put local residents lives on the line in another country" instead? It means so much more in the context of victory parades.
No. Not really.
Since conscription was dropped, the Royal security services in the UK have been proffered to school leavers as a career opportunity. The emphasis, even when I was still a school kid, was on learning a career. Defending the nation was a secondary factor.
For many school-leavers, it offered not only a career, but something they could ascribe to for various reasons.
In my time, I have mixed with many types in society and I can assure you that there is more patriotism from those who have nought than there is from those that have more.
Why is that I wonder?
No. Not really.
Since conscription was dropped, the Royal security services in the UK have been proffered to school leavers as a career opportunity. The emphasis, even when I was still a school kid, was on learning a career. Defending the nation was a secondary factor.
For many school-leavers, it offered not only a career, but something they could ascribe to for various reasons.
In my time, I have mixed with many types in society and I can assure you that there is more patriotism from those who have nought than there is from those that have more.
Why is that I wonder?
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
I've no problem with their joining up so long as there's no repetitive history of deployment against those of lesser breeds whom Her Majesty's Government wishes to topple from power. Since, however, it's manifestly and blindingly obvious to every recruit that they'll be used for these despicable foreign adventures, there's not the slightest excuse for their saying "oh I only wanted a job and a career and competent training in a useful civilian discipline". They sign up knowing they'll be used to suppress irregular civil militias defending their homelands from foreign occupation and they quite simply couldn't give a damn about it. That makes them guilty, every man-jack of them.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
spot;1157831 wrote: I offered a single fact to back it up - "Around a half of all church attendances in England are Muslim, for example, and around half are Christian". If you think it's not true I could go and find the reason I thought it was.
I could perhaps also demonstrate that most English people haven't been inside a church for the last - shall we say five? - years other than for a wedding or funeral. If we accept that Christianity is a community of worship I think that suggests to me most of England is non-Christian. What other test would you apply?
Your system of ethics, law, morality, and many of your deepest cultural roots are all based on Christian tradition, which comes in most part as a reaction to the cruelty and moral subjectivity of the Roman Empire, the concept of democracy and particularly citizen participation in a Republic are from the Classical World, they don't occur in any other civilization, the medieval, baroque, and romantic glories of English art, music, literature etc are all informed by a christian ethos. Imagine Blake without Christianity, or Keats, or Jon Donne, or Milton, its impossible. These are bedrocks of what Englishness is at least in a linguistic and cultural sense.
Just measuring church worship is irrelevant in a secular culture, Europe has a Christian civilization by definition, not Muslim or Hindu or Buudist, or Confuscian, or even Byzantine Christian, but a Latin Christian one at its heart, after all Protestantism itself is a protest against Catholicism, not a protest against Islam. I would have thought all of this would be self-evident.
I could perhaps also demonstrate that most English people haven't been inside a church for the last - shall we say five? - years other than for a wedding or funeral. If we accept that Christianity is a community of worship I think that suggests to me most of England is non-Christian. What other test would you apply?
Your system of ethics, law, morality, and many of your deepest cultural roots are all based on Christian tradition, which comes in most part as a reaction to the cruelty and moral subjectivity of the Roman Empire, the concept of democracy and particularly citizen participation in a Republic are from the Classical World, they don't occur in any other civilization, the medieval, baroque, and romantic glories of English art, music, literature etc are all informed by a christian ethos. Imagine Blake without Christianity, or Keats, or Jon Donne, or Milton, its impossible. These are bedrocks of what Englishness is at least in a linguistic and cultural sense.
Just measuring church worship is irrelevant in a secular culture, Europe has a Christian civilization by definition, not Muslim or Hindu or Buudist, or Confuscian, or even Byzantine Christian, but a Latin Christian one at its heart, after all Protestantism itself is a protest against Catholicism, not a protest against Islam. I would have thought all of this would be self-evident.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
spot;1157914 wrote: I've no problem with their joining up so long as there's no repetitive history of deployment against those of lesser breeds whom Her Majesty's Government wishes to topple from power. Since, however, it's manifestly and blindingly obvious to every recruit that they'll be used for these despicable foreign adventures, there's not the slightest excuse for their saying "oh I only wanted a job and a career and competent training in a useful civilian discipline". They sign up knowing they'll be used to suppress irregular civil militias defending their homelands from foreign occupation and they quite simply couldn't give a damn about it. That makes them guilty, every man-jack of them.
Harsh.
What about British citizens who join the Taleban and shoot regular British soliders?
Traitors or Heros?
Harsh.
What about British citizens who join the Taleban and shoot regular British soliders?
Traitors or Heros?
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
Galbally;1157960 wrote: Harsh.
What about British citizens who join the Taleban and shoot regular British soliders?
Traitors or Heros?
Obviously traitors in just the way that William Joyce was.
Anyone who defends his homeland from foreign occupation is beyond criticism, it's what we'd all do in such circumstances.
What about British citizens who join the Taleban and shoot regular British soliders?
Traitors or Heros?
Obviously traitors in just the way that William Joyce was.
Anyone who defends his homeland from foreign occupation is beyond criticism, it's what we'd all do in such circumstances.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
spot;1157914 wrote: I've no problem with their joining up so long as there's no repetitive history of deployment against those of lesser breeds whom Her Majesty's Government wishes to topple from power. Since, however, it's manifestly and blindingly obvious to every recruit that they'll be used for these despicable foreign adventures, there's not the slightest excuse for their saying "oh I only wanted a job and a career and competent training in a useful civilian discipline". They sign up knowing they'll be used to suppress irregular civil militias defending their homelands from foreign occupation and they quite simply couldn't give a damn about it. That makes them guilty, every man-jack of them.
It may well be obvious to you and me, Spot. But, in the 80s, I was pointing this fact out to youngsters considering this route as a career opportunity and they blind-sided me with a bland we're not at war statement and they're not sending the new recruits to Ireland. Yup, they understood they had to follow orders and do as they were told. something they were only slightly attuned to through their school days.
The services, for the young and uninitiated, has a certain appeal and glamour which has been created by old stories by war veterans, old and more modern (for the period) war films (including science fiction style war films), patriotic ideals which are extensions of a sort from patriochal ideals, and so forth.
Even in the photos of the parade through Luton you will find mainly youngsters up to the age of 18. In fact, I doubt very much that these kids saw that much of service but just happened to be in that troop at the time of the parade. All part of their patriotic training which would have actually been advanced and reinforced by the taunts from Luton's Muslim idiots. Such are the vagiaries of service in our military armies.
It may well be obvious to you and me, Spot. But, in the 80s, I was pointing this fact out to youngsters considering this route as a career opportunity and they blind-sided me with a bland we're not at war statement and they're not sending the new recruits to Ireland. Yup, they understood they had to follow orders and do as they were told. something they were only slightly attuned to through their school days.
The services, for the young and uninitiated, has a certain appeal and glamour which has been created by old stories by war veterans, old and more modern (for the period) war films (including science fiction style war films), patriotic ideals which are extensions of a sort from patriochal ideals, and so forth.
Even in the photos of the parade through Luton you will find mainly youngsters up to the age of 18. In fact, I doubt very much that these kids saw that much of service but just happened to be in that troop at the time of the parade. All part of their patriotic training which would have actually been advanced and reinforced by the taunts from Luton's Muslim idiots. Such are the vagiaries of service in our military armies.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
Galbally;1157661 wrote: Interesting as always spot.
In terms of your question, Ireland north and south is very different now. I am from the south so my experience of the North is limited, but I have been up in Belfast and about the place on occasion. The first couple of times are strange, as there is no actual border, you just notice the road signs change and the built environment up there looks like england, the roads, the paving stones, the brickwork, the little things, and of course then all the Union flags and all of that stuff. Its kinda trippy for us, I am sure its probably similar coming down the other way if you haven't done it before.
As for who people are, in the South no, you can't tell by looking but you can generally make an educated guess by their name and social manners, protestants in the South are generally anglicans and are totally integrated within the community, but would generally be more class concious, more anglified, and have a higher social status than your average catholic. Anyone who isn't a protestant in the south is going to be by default a Catholic, as thats 95 percent of the population.
The north is way more complicated, and you would have to ask a northerner to get a proper answer, but I would say that in general yes, they seem to be able to tell each other apart almost immediately, certainly after a couple of rudimentary questions they will know. We can sort of tell Unionists from Catholics, but from the way they dress and talk, not from the way they look, also Southern's knowledge of the North is actually very limited, we don't go there much (discounting the cross-border shopping thing), and they don't come down here, certainly not unionist people by and large, but of course that's a generalization.
People are obviously extremely concious of identity in the North, while in the South you can more or less presume everyone is the same, so people are not quite as identity concious, and are more secure in who they are, though as we have more inward immigration of non-Irish I guess that might change, though I doubt it really.
What I notice in England when I am there, is that you can certainly tell the old ethnic divides as you move south to north, wheras in the south and east you get lots of largish germanic saxony-looking english people, as you move north and west, they tend to get less of those types and more of the smaller and wirey people, so you can see the more Celtic-looking stock coming in, its interesting.
I have to admit that I have not been aware of this distinction. That is an interesting observation and I will not be able to help myself now but to look out for it.
For me, living where I do now is the furthest I have lived north of England and, after two years, I am only now not having to strain for the dialects. One thing is for sure in Leeds, there's a wider variety of real ale here than I found in Bedford where it wasn't apparently taken that seriously. I definitely recall the one pub in Bedford town centre called the Hobgoblin after it's Wychwood Breweries' namesake that never had a drop of Hobgoblin to sell on a Saturday morning lunch time session. I was close to complaining to Wychwood about this just before I moved to West Yorkshire.
In terms of your question, Ireland north and south is very different now. I am from the south so my experience of the North is limited, but I have been up in Belfast and about the place on occasion. The first couple of times are strange, as there is no actual border, you just notice the road signs change and the built environment up there looks like england, the roads, the paving stones, the brickwork, the little things, and of course then all the Union flags and all of that stuff. Its kinda trippy for us, I am sure its probably similar coming down the other way if you haven't done it before.
As for who people are, in the South no, you can't tell by looking but you can generally make an educated guess by their name and social manners, protestants in the South are generally anglicans and are totally integrated within the community, but would generally be more class concious, more anglified, and have a higher social status than your average catholic. Anyone who isn't a protestant in the south is going to be by default a Catholic, as thats 95 percent of the population.
The north is way more complicated, and you would have to ask a northerner to get a proper answer, but I would say that in general yes, they seem to be able to tell each other apart almost immediately, certainly after a couple of rudimentary questions they will know. We can sort of tell Unionists from Catholics, but from the way they dress and talk, not from the way they look, also Southern's knowledge of the North is actually very limited, we don't go there much (discounting the cross-border shopping thing), and they don't come down here, certainly not unionist people by and large, but of course that's a generalization.
People are obviously extremely concious of identity in the North, while in the South you can more or less presume everyone is the same, so people are not quite as identity concious, and are more secure in who they are, though as we have more inward immigration of non-Irish I guess that might change, though I doubt it really.
What I notice in England when I am there, is that you can certainly tell the old ethnic divides as you move south to north, wheras in the south and east you get lots of largish germanic saxony-looking english people, as you move north and west, they tend to get less of those types and more of the smaller and wirey people, so you can see the more Celtic-looking stock coming in, its interesting.
I have to admit that I have not been aware of this distinction. That is an interesting observation and I will not be able to help myself now but to look out for it.
For me, living where I do now is the furthest I have lived north of England and, after two years, I am only now not having to strain for the dialects. One thing is for sure in Leeds, there's a wider variety of real ale here than I found in Bedford where it wasn't apparently taken that seriously. I definitely recall the one pub in Bedford town centre called the Hobgoblin after it's Wychwood Breweries' namesake that never had a drop of Hobgoblin to sell on a Saturday morning lunch time session. I was close to complaining to Wychwood about this just before I moved to West Yorkshire.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
Luton's Muslim extremists defy public anger - Telegraph
The anger is shared by the Muslims.
The anger is shared by the Muslims.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
spot;1157999 wrote:
Anyone who defends his homeland from foreign occupation is beyond criticism, it's what we'd all do in such circumstances.
well good job we have people willing to join the forces then so maybe we will be able to defend our homeland if the need ever arises
Anyone who defends his homeland from foreign occupation is beyond criticism, it's what we'd all do in such circumstances.
well good job we have people willing to join the forces then so maybe we will be able to defend our homeland if the need ever arises
FOC THREAD PART1
In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
Martin Luther King Jr.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
kazalala;1158088 wrote: well good job we have people willing to join the forces then so maybe we will be able to defend our homeland if the need ever arises
The point is, you see, since we acquired our nuclear deterrent it's become impossible for any foreign armed force to invade our homeland. Not the French, not the Germans, not even those beastly world dominators the North Koreans or the Iranians. Does anyone seriously anticipate an invasion of Britain from Iran, out of interest? The only possible need for a British armed force is domestic homeland security within our own borders. We've absolutely no need for an air force, we've no need for a surface fleet and we've no need for any more troops than securing the realm from internal unrest requires. No country can invade because we can destroy their cities and their industrial and political infrastructure if they do. That's what nuclear deterrence is all about.
If, and only if, a contract is available to any volunteer recruit that forbids his deployment abroad is it honourable to sign up given what use the politicians have made of the armed forces in the last few decades. Without that you can guarantee the abusive occupation of other countries will continue.
The point is, you see, since we acquired our nuclear deterrent it's become impossible for any foreign armed force to invade our homeland. Not the French, not the Germans, not even those beastly world dominators the North Koreans or the Iranians. Does anyone seriously anticipate an invasion of Britain from Iran, out of interest? The only possible need for a British armed force is domestic homeland security within our own borders. We've absolutely no need for an air force, we've no need for a surface fleet and we've no need for any more troops than securing the realm from internal unrest requires. No country can invade because we can destroy their cities and their industrial and political infrastructure if they do. That's what nuclear deterrence is all about.
If, and only if, a contract is available to any volunteer recruit that forbids his deployment abroad is it honourable to sign up given what use the politicians have made of the armed forces in the last few decades. Without that you can guarantee the abusive occupation of other countries will continue.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
spot;1158093 wrote: The point is, you see, since we acquired our nuclear deterrent it's become impossible for any foreign armed force to invade our homeland. Not the French, not the Germans, not even those beastly world dominators the North Koreans or the Iranians. Does anyone seriously anticipate an invasion of Britain from Iran, out of interest? The only possible need for a British armed force is domestic homeland security within our own borders. We've absolutely no need for an air force, we've no need for a surface fleet and we've no need for any more troops than securing the realm from internal unrest requires. No country can invade because we can destroy their cities and their industrial and political infrastructure if they do. That's what nuclear deterrence is all about.
If, and only if, a contract is available to any volunteer recruit that forbids his deployment abroad is it honourable to sign up given what use the politicians have made of the armed forces in the last few decades. Without that you can guarantee the abusive occupation of other countries will continue.
i dont think i really anticipate any invasion from anywhere so if anyone threatens or tries to invade us,,, we just nuke em?
i also dont think i am fully equipped to enter in to debate about all this,, but still i have been drawn to comment for some reason.
I think perhaps people sign up for different reasons,, some honorable (genuine in their own mind) some maybe to just get away from home life, some to be able to have a job and learn a trade,, probably a lot more reasons than i can think of. I think it does some people good to have the experience and learn discipline, team work etc. and others its not good for at all.
My son was in the RAF and i dont know how many times i asked him why he wanted to join, we certainly didnt encourage it, but he was 19 and too old for us to be dictating what he should and shouldnt do, so we supported him in his decision. I think he just wanted some independance and i thought that was good, also for him to get out in the world and stand on his own 2 feet. It was a bad decision, it was bad for him altogether. he is out now and looking like he might be happy again:)
If, and only if, a contract is available to any volunteer recruit that forbids his deployment abroad is it honourable to sign up given what use the politicians have made of the armed forces in the last few decades. Without that you can guarantee the abusive occupation of other countries will continue.
i dont think i really anticipate any invasion from anywhere
so if anyone threatens or tries to invade us,,, we just nuke em?i also dont think i am fully equipped to enter in to debate about all this,, but still i have been drawn to comment for some reason.
I think perhaps people sign up for different reasons,, some honorable (genuine in their own mind) some maybe to just get away from home life, some to be able to have a job and learn a trade,, probably a lot more reasons than i can think of. I think it does some people good to have the experience and learn discipline, team work etc. and others its not good for at all.
My son was in the RAF and i dont know how many times i asked him why he wanted to join, we certainly didnt encourage it, but he was 19 and too old for us to be dictating what he should and shouldnt do, so we supported him in his decision. I think he just wanted some independance and i thought that was good, also for him to get out in the world and stand on his own 2 feet. It was a bad decision, it was bad for him altogether. he is out now and looking like he might be happy again:)
FOC THREAD PART1
In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
Martin Luther King Jr.
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Oscar Namechange
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muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
kazalala;1158160 wrote: i dont think i really anticipate any invasion from anywhere so if anyone threatens or tries to invade us,,, we just nuke em?
) The whole point of nucluer weapons programme is that it rules out invasion entirely. Nucleur weapons are a deterrant, simply that. Anyone stupid enough to try to invade a country with nucleur capabilty, frankly, deserves all it gets.
Why do you think America is so worried about Iran's race for nucleur weapons?
so if anyone threatens or tries to invade us,,, we just nuke em?) The whole point of nucluer weapons programme is that it rules out invasion entirely. Nucleur weapons are a deterrant, simply that. Anyone stupid enough to try to invade a country with nucleur capabilty, frankly, deserves all it gets.
Why do you think America is so worried about Iran's race for nucleur weapons?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
kazalala;1158160 wrote: I think perhaps people sign up for different reasons,, some honorable (genuine in their own mind) some maybe to just get away from home life, some to be able to have a job and learn a trade,, probably a lot more reasons than i can think of. I think it does some people good to have the experience and learn discipline, team work etc. and others its not good for at all.People die as a result of their decision to volunteer. If they didn't volunteer, those people wouldn't die. How simple a statement does it need to be for you to recognize that the choice in favour of volunteering, under a government with a track record of invading foreign countries for illegal purposes, is a dishonourable one, bad both for them and for the citizens of the countries invaded? These volunteers are honing their skills and earning their keep at the cost of innocent blood.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
spot;1158209 wrote: People die as a result of their decision to volunteer. If they didn't volunteer, those people wouldn't die. How simple a statement does it need to be for you to recognize that the choice in favour of volunteering, under a government with a track record of invading foreign countries for illegal purposes, is a dishonourable one, bad both for them and for the citizens of the countries invaded? These volunteers are honing their skills and earning their keep at the cost of innocent blood. Aint that the truth.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
kazalala;1158160 wrote: i dont think i really anticipate any invasion from anywhere so if anyone threatens or tries to invade us,,, we just nuke em?Kaz, where have you been for the last forty years? What on earth have you been buying Polaris and Trident subs and missiles for all this while?
If anyone threatens us, we talk. If anyone invades us we just nuke em. That's what it's for. The consequence is that nobody, but nobody, is sufficiently insane as to land belligerent armed forces on our homeland. We're guaranteed safe from invasion for ever after, unless we're dumb enough to unilaterally abandon our nuclear strike capability.
so if anyone threatens or tries to invade us,,, we just nuke em?Kaz, where have you been for the last forty years? What on earth have you been buying Polaris and Trident subs and missiles for all this while?If anyone threatens us, we talk. If anyone invades us we just nuke em. That's what it's for. The consequence is that nobody, but nobody, is sufficiently insane as to land belligerent armed forces on our homeland. We're guaranteed safe from invasion for ever after, unless we're dumb enough to unilaterally abandon our nuclear strike capability.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
oscar;1158205 wrote: The whole point of nucluer weapons programme is that it rules out invasion entirely. Nucleur weapons are a deterrant, simply that. Anyone stupid enough to try to invade a country with nucleur capabilty, frankly, deserves all it gets.
Why do you think America is so worried about Iran's race for nucleur weapons?
shame all the innocent people who live in such a country wont get a choice in the matter
spot;1158209 wrote: People die as a result of their decision to volunteer. If they didn't volunteer, those people wouldn't die. How simple a statement does it need to be for you to recognize that the choice in favour of volunteering, under a government with a track record of invading foreign countries for illegal purposes, is a dishonourable one, bad both for them and for the citizens of the countries invaded? These volunteers are honing their skills and earning their keep at the cost of innocent blood.
thats simple enough for me,, i didnt think i was arguing a point or even disagreeing,, just stating my thoughts Its not me thats thinking of joining up though,, and im sure those that do, dont go in to it with the state of mind that they dont give sh** about what they have to do as long as they get what they want out of it:-2
Why do you think America is so worried about Iran's race for nucleur weapons?
shame all the innocent people who live in such a country wont get a choice in the matter
spot;1158209 wrote: People die as a result of their decision to volunteer. If they didn't volunteer, those people wouldn't die. How simple a statement does it need to be for you to recognize that the choice in favour of volunteering, under a government with a track record of invading foreign countries for illegal purposes, is a dishonourable one, bad both for them and for the citizens of the countries invaded? These volunteers are honing their skills and earning their keep at the cost of innocent blood.
thats simple enough for me,, i didnt think i was arguing a point or even disagreeing,, just stating my thoughts
Its not me thats thinking of joining up though,, and im sure those that do, dont go in to it with the state of mind that they dont give sh** about what they have to do as long as they get what they want out of it:-2FOC THREAD PART1
In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
Martin Luther King Jr.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
posted by spot
I speak from a position of total ignorance here but you're in a perfect position to set me straight.
If you're a Proddie and you meet someone, can you tell whether they're Papist by the shape of their head or the colour of their eyes or whether they have a Roman nose? And vice versa? Don't mistake me, I'm not being funny and I honestly don't know what the answer is, maybe you can and maybe you can't. I'm not talking about dress, I'm not talking about accent, I'm talking about looks.
Catholics have bushier eyebrows and their eye are set closer together. When I was a teenager this was explained to me-in all seriousness-as the way you could tell catholics from the rest. Names are also a good clue-my wide has been applying for jobs in the outskirts of glasgow and was at least getting interviews except for one or two areas where the name (a classically protestant one) was enough to make sure she didn't get an interview. Tales of how some councils used different coloured applications for the different religions are not apocryphal, nor is the fact that councils would discriminate in terms of spending in areas where the population was predominantly of the "wrong" religion. Sadly bigotry is not confined to Northern ireland it's all too prevalent in scotland as well and is a real bane . There was a muslim pupil in one of her classes who was asked in all seriousness, on saying she was a muslim, whether she was a catholic muslim or a protestant muslim. Everybody thought it hilarious bit the questioner was deadly earnest.
When i was in primary school there was a new catholic primary school built. It went from we're going to a different school because we're catholic, leading to the obvious question what's a catholic I remember asking if that meant they weren't christian (when you're seven such differences have to be explained to you) to a month or so after it opened fights innthe street between rival gangs of children.
Catholic /protestant bigotry bubbles away. It doesn't take many bigots to ruin things for everybody. Just look at northern ireland there are people on both sides who want the violence back. Looking for common sense in it all is a waste of time. Attempts to end separate religious schools are blocked at every turn yet it is those same schools that perpetuate the hatred now muslims have separate schools and the hate starts to grow. Children start ouit playing together and then get taught they shouldn't speak to "the others". Religion is a bane on peaceful existence throughout the world casting it's baleful light everywhere.
posted by spot
People die as a result of their decision to volunteer. If they didn't volunteer, those people wouldn't die. How simple a statement does it need to be for you to recognize that the choice in favour of volunteering, under a government with a track record of invading foreign countries for illegal purposes, is a dishonourable one, bad both for them and for the citizens of the countries invaded? These volunteers are honing their skills and earning their keep at the cost of innocent blood.
People join up for a myriad of reasons and even of they know there is every possibility they will be in irag or Afghanistan many still do so. Does beg the question as to how much does an 18 year old understand of the issues involved and are they the victims of a cynical set of politicians and those who elect them and let the said politicians get away with it. New labour have been there for over ten years remember and got voted back in even after it became clear what a set of chancing bastards they were.
Whatever the reasons for joining most of the armed forces end up with a sense of duty and loyalty to their friends that keep them there and are ready to put themselves at risk in the service of their country. You may not think much of their reasons and disagree that as sense of duty is a good reason to do anything but the majority of people in this country recognise it as being real and worthwhile .
I share with you the disdain for tony blair and bush and the cynical amoral and downright stupid foreign policy that got us in to this mess but the real culprits are the politicians not the troops. I can't agree with you on this one. the troops are doing a tough job to the best of their ability and most people can appreciate that fact however much they may not approve of what is done in their name they appreciate the sense of integrity shown by the soldiers. It's just a pity our politiiams lack
The islamic protesters are deliberately trying to stir up racial hatred. If they were really that concerned they would be demonstrating outside the houses of parliament or number 10 on a regular basis. they might even get a lot of Christians to join in. Instead they are taking an action that they know will antagonise many who otherwise probably agree with their view of the war.
They are no different from the gunmen who shot those two soldiers and the policemen in northern Ireland they want to stir up the violence to justify their actions. Nothing would probably please them more than to have a mosgue fire-bombed by the less intelligent of their Christian neighbours.
I speak from a position of total ignorance here but you're in a perfect position to set me straight.
If you're a Proddie and you meet someone, can you tell whether they're Papist by the shape of their head or the colour of their eyes or whether they have a Roman nose? And vice versa? Don't mistake me, I'm not being funny and I honestly don't know what the answer is, maybe you can and maybe you can't. I'm not talking about dress, I'm not talking about accent, I'm talking about looks.
Catholics have bushier eyebrows and their eye are set closer together. When I was a teenager this was explained to me-in all seriousness-as the way you could tell catholics from the rest. Names are also a good clue-my wide has been applying for jobs in the outskirts of glasgow and was at least getting interviews except for one or two areas where the name (a classically protestant one) was enough to make sure she didn't get an interview. Tales of how some councils used different coloured applications for the different religions are not apocryphal, nor is the fact that councils would discriminate in terms of spending in areas where the population was predominantly of the "wrong" religion. Sadly bigotry is not confined to Northern ireland it's all too prevalent in scotland as well and is a real bane . There was a muslim pupil in one of her classes who was asked in all seriousness, on saying she was a muslim, whether she was a catholic muslim or a protestant muslim. Everybody thought it hilarious bit the questioner was deadly earnest.
When i was in primary school there was a new catholic primary school built. It went from we're going to a different school because we're catholic, leading to the obvious question what's a catholic I remember asking if that meant they weren't christian (when you're seven such differences have to be explained to you) to a month or so after it opened fights innthe street between rival gangs of children.
Catholic /protestant bigotry bubbles away. It doesn't take many bigots to ruin things for everybody. Just look at northern ireland there are people on both sides who want the violence back. Looking for common sense in it all is a waste of time. Attempts to end separate religious schools are blocked at every turn yet it is those same schools that perpetuate the hatred now muslims have separate schools and the hate starts to grow. Children start ouit playing together and then get taught they shouldn't speak to "the others". Religion is a bane on peaceful existence throughout the world casting it's baleful light everywhere.
posted by spot
People die as a result of their decision to volunteer. If they didn't volunteer, those people wouldn't die. How simple a statement does it need to be for you to recognize that the choice in favour of volunteering, under a government with a track record of invading foreign countries for illegal purposes, is a dishonourable one, bad both for them and for the citizens of the countries invaded? These volunteers are honing their skills and earning their keep at the cost of innocent blood.
People join up for a myriad of reasons and even of they know there is every possibility they will be in irag or Afghanistan many still do so. Does beg the question as to how much does an 18 year old understand of the issues involved and are they the victims of a cynical set of politicians and those who elect them and let the said politicians get away with it. New labour have been there for over ten years remember and got voted back in even after it became clear what a set of chancing bastards they were.
Whatever the reasons for joining most of the armed forces end up with a sense of duty and loyalty to their friends that keep them there and are ready to put themselves at risk in the service of their country. You may not think much of their reasons and disagree that as sense of duty is a good reason to do anything but the majority of people in this country recognise it as being real and worthwhile .
I share with you the disdain for tony blair and bush and the cynical amoral and downright stupid foreign policy that got us in to this mess but the real culprits are the politicians not the troops. I can't agree with you on this one. the troops are doing a tough job to the best of their ability and most people can appreciate that fact however much they may not approve of what is done in their name they appreciate the sense of integrity shown by the soldiers. It's just a pity our politiiams lack
The islamic protesters are deliberately trying to stir up racial hatred. If they were really that concerned they would be demonstrating outside the houses of parliament or number 10 on a regular basis. they might even get a lot of Christians to join in. Instead they are taking an action that they know will antagonise many who otherwise probably agree with their view of the war.
They are no different from the gunmen who shot those two soldiers and the policemen in northern Ireland they want to stir up the violence to justify their actions. Nothing would probably please them more than to have a mosgue fire-bombed by the less intelligent of their Christian neighbours.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
gmc;1158258 wrote: They are no different from the gunmen who shot those two soldiers and the policemen in northern Ireland they want to stir up the violence to justify their actions. Nothing would probably please them more than to have a mosgue fire-bombed by the less intelligent of their Christian neighbours.They're entirely different, they're pacifists for goodness sake.
As was Gandhi and he won by stirring up a backlash too, if you remember. When you're physically unable to oppose by force it's entirely legitimate to go for the soft underbelly like picketing "victory" parades.
I took my daughter to the Falklands Victory Parade through London - the one the archbishop criticized, if you remember it. The lack of cheering was palpable. I was stood on the south of the route, to the east of St Paul's, and the feeling among the crowd must have had echoes of the German victory parade through Paris in 1940. That crowd was not remotely sympathetic toward the troops at all.
As was Gandhi and he won by stirring up a backlash too, if you remember. When you're physically unable to oppose by force it's entirely legitimate to go for the soft underbelly like picketing "victory" parades.
I took my daughter to the Falklands Victory Parade through London - the one the archbishop criticized, if you remember it. The lack of cheering was palpable. I was stood on the south of the route, to the east of St Paul's, and the feeling among the crowd must have had echoes of the German victory parade through Paris in 1940. That crowd was not remotely sympathetic toward the troops at all.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
spot;1158269 wrote: They're entirely different, they're pacifists for goodness sake.
As was Gandhi and he won by stirring up a backlash too, if you remember. When you're physically unable to oppose by force it's entirely legitimate to go for the soft underbelly like picketing "victory" parades.
I took my daughter to the Falklands Victory Parade through London - the one the archbishop criticized, if you remember it. The lack of cheering was palpable. I was stood on the south of the route, to the east of St Paul's, and the feeling among the crowd must have had echoes of the German victory parade through Paris in 1940. That crowd was not remotely sympathetic toward the troops at all.
Pacifists?
My hole they are.
As was Gandhi and he won by stirring up a backlash too, if you remember. When you're physically unable to oppose by force it's entirely legitimate to go for the soft underbelly like picketing "victory" parades.
I took my daughter to the Falklands Victory Parade through London - the one the archbishop criticized, if you remember it. The lack of cheering was palpable. I was stood on the south of the route, to the east of St Paul's, and the feeling among the crowd must have had echoes of the German victory parade through Paris in 1940. That crowd was not remotely sympathetic toward the troops at all.
Pacifists?
My hole they are.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
Galbally;1158287 wrote: Pacifists?
My hole they are.
These protesters in Luton are, by any definition you care to put forward, pacifists to the core.
My hole they are.
These protesters in Luton are, by any definition you care to put forward, pacifists to the core.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
posted by spot
They're entirely different, they're pacifists for goodness sake.
You can't be pacifist one minute and call for jihad the next. If like ghandi they called for tolerance and peace you might have a valid point as it is I don't think the comparison is valid.
posted by spot
I took my daughter to the Falklands Victory Parade through London - the one the archbishop criticized, if you remember it. The lack of cheering was palpable. I was stood on the south of the route, to the east of St Paul's, and the feeling among the crowd must have had echoes of the German victory parade through Paris in 1940. That crowd was not remotely sympathetic toward the troops at all.
So why were they there, come to that why did you bother? How many were booing? I do remember that maggie didn't get the triumph she was wanting.
Those people in Luton cheering the troops were not showing their support for the war. I think it's a mistake to conflate support for the troops with support for the war which is what you seem to be doing.
Just as some American commentators tried to suggest that anyone who opposed the war were somehow wishing that american troops would be killed.
Both points of view are wrong. While there are come thugs in the army and the behaviour of some is a disgrace that does not apply to the vast majority and most people are capable of understanding the difference and appreciate what motivates the soldiers is a bot more than a desire
The islamic protesters either do not understand the difference or do and use the parade as a means to stir up hatred, which is all they are going to achieve.
They're entirely different, they're pacifists for goodness sake.
You can't be pacifist one minute and call for jihad the next. If like ghandi they called for tolerance and peace you might have a valid point as it is I don't think the comparison is valid.
posted by spot
I took my daughter to the Falklands Victory Parade through London - the one the archbishop criticized, if you remember it. The lack of cheering was palpable. I was stood on the south of the route, to the east of St Paul's, and the feeling among the crowd must have had echoes of the German victory parade through Paris in 1940. That crowd was not remotely sympathetic toward the troops at all.
So why were they there, come to that why did you bother? How many were booing? I do remember that maggie didn't get the triumph she was wanting.
Those people in Luton cheering the troops were not showing their support for the war. I think it's a mistake to conflate support for the troops with support for the war which is what you seem to be doing.
Just as some American commentators tried to suggest that anyone who opposed the war were somehow wishing that american troops would be killed.
Both points of view are wrong. While there are come thugs in the army and the behaviour of some is a disgrace that does not apply to the vast majority and most people are capable of understanding the difference and appreciate what motivates the soldiers is a bot more than a desire
The islamic protesters either do not understand the difference or do and use the parade as a means to stir up hatred, which is all they are going to achieve.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
gmc;1158398 wrote: posted by spot
You can't be pacifist one minute and call for jihad the next. If like ghandi they called for tolerance and peace you might have a valid point as it is I don't think the comparison is valid. The Luton protesters made no such call. What's more, they're not competent to make such a call. They reasonably protested at the abuse involved in sending the British armed forces abroad to attempt regime change. They protest it, I protest it. Either you can demonstrate that they're collectively attempting to raise Jihad or you can't. I've seen no evidence of it.
You can't be pacifist one minute and call for jihad the next. If like ghandi they called for tolerance and peace you might have a valid point as it is I don't think the comparison is valid. The Luton protesters made no such call. What's more, they're not competent to make such a call. They reasonably protested at the abuse involved in sending the British armed forces abroad to attempt regime change. They protest it, I protest it. Either you can demonstrate that they're collectively attempting to raise Jihad or you can't. I've seen no evidence of it.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
gmc;1158398 wrote: posted by spot
So why were they there, come to that why did you bother? How many were booing? I do remember that maggie didn't get the triumph she was wanting.
Those people in Luton cheering the troops were not showing their support for the war. I think it's a mistake to conflate support for the troops with support for the war which is what you seem to be doing.
I took her because it was an historic event which I wanted her to recall in later life. Nobody booed, there was (as I think I said) a sullen silence of those who came to observe for the record, and a scattering of enthusiasts who were all the less vocal in finding so little support for cheers.
Pretending that "support for the troops" is different in some sense to "support for the war" is a mistake that's been made by too many for too long. If they sign up, they're guilty. They've seen the unethical use made of previous cohorts and they couldn't care, they just wanted their chance to go and test themselves in battle at the expense of yet another indigenous population. Be damned to all the pussyfooting.
So why were they there, come to that why did you bother? How many were booing? I do remember that maggie didn't get the triumph she was wanting.
Those people in Luton cheering the troops were not showing their support for the war. I think it's a mistake to conflate support for the troops with support for the war which is what you seem to be doing.
I took her because it was an historic event which I wanted her to recall in later life. Nobody booed, there was (as I think I said) a sullen silence of those who came to observe for the record, and a scattering of enthusiasts who were all the less vocal in finding so little support for cheers.
Pretending that "support for the troops" is different in some sense to "support for the war" is a mistake that's been made by too many for too long. If they sign up, they're guilty. They've seen the unethical use made of previous cohorts and they couldn't care, they just wanted their chance to go and test themselves in battle at the expense of yet another indigenous population. Be damned to all the pussyfooting.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
spot;1158402 wrote: I took her because it was an historic event which I wanted her to recall in later life. Nobody booed, there was (as I think I said) a sullen silence of those who came to observe for the record, and a scattering of enthusiasts who were all the less vocal in finding so little support for cheers.
Pretending that "support for the troops" is different in some sense to "support for the war" is a mistake that's been made by too many for too long. If they sign up, they're guilty. They've seen the unethical use made of previous cohorts and they couldn't care, they just wanted their chance to go and test themselves in battle at the expense of yet another indigenous population. Be damned to all the pussyfooting.
does this mean that you think all who sign up are well aware of all the issues and just dont care as long as they get their personal satisfaction? not being sarky,, just making sure i understand.
My Nephew is 17, he keeps talking of joining up.. i must ask him next time we speak what his reasons are and what he thinks about the current events,, or if he even knows much about it??? he is a lovley boy who is comfortable speaking with adults but i have a feeling he is quite naive:-3
Pretending that "support for the troops" is different in some sense to "support for the war" is a mistake that's been made by too many for too long. If they sign up, they're guilty. They've seen the unethical use made of previous cohorts and they couldn't care, they just wanted their chance to go and test themselves in battle at the expense of yet another indigenous population. Be damned to all the pussyfooting.
does this mean that you think all who sign up are well aware of all the issues and just dont care as long as they get their personal satisfaction? not being sarky,, just making sure i understand.
My Nephew is 17, he keeps talking of joining up.. i must ask him next time we speak what his reasons are and what he thinks about the current events,, or if he even knows much about it??? he is a lovley boy who is comfortable speaking with adults but i have a feeling he is quite naive:-3
FOC THREAD PART1
In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
Martin Luther King Jr.
-
Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
kazalala;1158451 wrote: does this mean that you think all who sign up are well aware of all the issues and just dont care as long as they get their personal satisfaction? not being sarky,, just making sure i understand.
My Nephew is 17, he keeps talking of joining up.. i must ask him next time we speak what his reasons are and what he thinks about the current events,, or if he even knows much about it??? he is a lovley boy who is comfortable speaking with adults but i have a feeling he is quite naive:-3 Don't worry Kaz, as i understand it, what their role is and how they will be deployed is spelt out to them very early on. They don't get duped into signing and them suddenly find out that they are off to the ME.
My Nephew is 17, he keeps talking of joining up.. i must ask him next time we speak what his reasons are and what he thinks about the current events,, or if he even knows much about it??? he is a lovley boy who is comfortable speaking with adults but i have a feeling he is quite naive:-3 Don't worry Kaz, as i understand it, what their role is and how they will be deployed is spelt out to them very early on. They don't get duped into signing and them suddenly find out that they are off to the ME.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
oscar;1158468 wrote: Don't worry Kaz, as i understand it, what their role is and how they will be deployed is spelt out to them very early on. They don't get duped into signing and them suddenly find out that they are off to the ME.
If they sign up, they're guilty. They've seen the unethical use made of previous cohorts and they couldn't care, they just wanted their chance to go and test themselves in battle at the expense of yet another indigenous population. Be damned to all the pussyfooting.
what i was asking spot was does he think that those who sign up know full well that the government are just using them, that they know these wars are unjustified, that they dont even care,, they just want a trade or they just want to fight for their own personal satisfaction? Does he think they are consiously making the decision to sign up for personal gain? Both my Husband and my son were in the RAF,, im well aware of the lies they are told:sneaky:
If they sign up, they're guilty. They've seen the unethical use made of previous cohorts and they couldn't care, they just wanted their chance to go and test themselves in battle at the expense of yet another indigenous population. Be damned to all the pussyfooting.
what i was asking spot was does he think that those who sign up know full well that the government are just using them, that they know these wars are unjustified, that they dont even care,, they just want a trade or they just want to fight for their own personal satisfaction? Does he think they are consiously making the decision to sign up for personal gain? Both my Husband and my son were in the RAF,, im well aware of the lies they are told:sneaky:
FOC THREAD PART1
In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
Martin Luther King Jr.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
kazalala;1158473 wrote:
what i was asking spot was does he think that those who sign up know full well that the government are just using them, that they know these wars are unjustified, that they dont even care,, they just want a trade or they just want to fight for their own personal satisfaction? Does he think they are consiously making the decision to sign up for personal gain? Both my Husband and my son were in the RAF,, im well aware of the lies they are told:sneaky: It's hard to say as it's down to the individual. Mr O also has nephews in the RAF, one is top secret and even his own mother doesn't know what he's up to. For the record, I wouldn't turn out to cheer him home either because he's family. I have certainly met plenty of 'gung ho's' who simply want to see action and don't care where it is. Ironically, from many i have met, they fear going to Northern Ireland yet have no fear of the ME. I agree with Spot that these individuals carry out their lust for battle at the expense of another nation of the ill-equiped. No different to fox-hunting to me. The politicians are to blame yes, but as i said, no recruit goes in blindly. I'll wait for Spot to come in and reply.
what i was asking spot was does he think that those who sign up know full well that the government are just using them, that they know these wars are unjustified, that they dont even care,, they just want a trade or they just want to fight for their own personal satisfaction? Does he think they are consiously making the decision to sign up for personal gain? Both my Husband and my son were in the RAF,, im well aware of the lies they are told:sneaky: It's hard to say as it's down to the individual. Mr O also has nephews in the RAF, one is top secret and even his own mother doesn't know what he's up to. For the record, I wouldn't turn out to cheer him home either because he's family. I have certainly met plenty of 'gung ho's' who simply want to see action and don't care where it is. Ironically, from many i have met, they fear going to Northern Ireland yet have no fear of the ME. I agree with Spot that these individuals carry out their lust for battle at the expense of another nation of the ill-equiped. No different to fox-hunting to me. The politicians are to blame yes, but as i said, no recruit goes in blindly. I'll wait for Spot to come in and reply.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
kazalala;1158473 wrote: what i was asking spot was does he think that those who sign up know full well that the government are just using them, that they know these wars are unjustified, that they dont even care,, they just want a trade or they just want to fight for their own personal satisfaction? Does he think they are consiously making the decision to sign up for personal gain?Either they know and don't care or they know and they've swallowed the concepts of glory and patriotism. I don't think it's possible to sign up today and not know for a fact you're going to become a part of this government's adventurism. I've seen accounts by recruits that their mates had gone in and got their quota and now it was their turn, a rite of passage to turn them into respected men among their fraternity. And, of course, you might end up with a usable trade afterwards though I think it's less likely than's made out.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
i am probably as guillable as them then but i cant bring myself to believe ALL of them just dont care and deserve the amount of criticism they are getting. It just dont make sense,, i mean its saying a huge amount of people think the same and that dont seem right. Yes some do have the wrong reasons or mentality, but surely not all, and even if they are deluded their intentions could be good.
You can get a lot of good qualifications, and take part in a lot of different courses in the forces now ,,, as long as you apply yourself and want to do it.
personally i dont like the armed forces and wish idealistically that we didnt have them, i didnt want my son to go in, and i can only talk through experience, of the RAF as my husband was in when we married. I didnt like it,,although there were pros,,,mainly it was very class conscious. While were stationed at S.H.A.P.E i got to see the difference between British and other nations forces,, mainly American who were much better looked after in my opinion. You got the feeling they were actually appreciated.
Oscar, you say you wouldnt turn out to cheer,,, but would you turn out to hurl verbal abuse at them?
You can get a lot of good qualifications, and take part in a lot of different courses in the forces now ,,, as long as you apply yourself and want to do it.
personally i dont like the armed forces and wish idealistically that we didnt have them, i didnt want my son to go in, and i can only talk through experience, of the RAF as my husband was in when we married. I didnt like it,,although there were pros,,,mainly it was very class conscious. While were stationed at S.H.A.P.E i got to see the difference between British and other nations forces,, mainly American who were much better looked after in my opinion. You got the feeling they were actually appreciated.
Oscar, you say you wouldnt turn out to cheer,,, but would you turn out to hurl verbal abuse at them?
FOC THREAD PART1
In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
Martin Luther King Jr.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
So if soliders are guilty of whatever it is they are guilty for, by extension of the fact that they go along with what they are told. Therefore all labour party voters who put the Labour party back in power in 2006 are directly responsible for what has happened in Iraq since they were perpetuating the system resulting in Labour being in power, anyone who consumes anything that involves anyone else suffering is responsible also for that suffering, likewise: anyone who trys to defend communist murders, jihadist atrocities, or deny Nazi eztermination camps are also guilty by association and by being "part of the problem". You could also say that the Palestian civilians who were recently killed by the IDF incursion were valid targets, as they are perpetuating a system that maintains a violent party of militarists (Hamas) in power in the Gaza strip.
As one intelligent but cynical person once remarked, no one alive is innocent, everyone is either a willing or unwilling part of a wider system that involves something that can be considered repression, everyone is a justified target of someone else. Some people would see innocence personified as a child, but children are just adults that haven't grown up yet, one day they will do something that will perpeturate one repressive system or another. The only way to get rid of evil or guilt on planet earth would be to get rid of people, period, all people.
You see this is the problem when you start the utopian moral relativism thing, in that who gets to determine what is acceptable in terms of views and actions and what isn't? Ultimately if its not a commonly agreed system of legality involving lots of arbitrary compromises developed over time and due to events, then it will be a group of angry, bright-eyed young men with guns and lots of doctrinare ideas about right and wrong, based on what they think is right and what your doing is wrong.
You tend to find that utopian (usually Marxist) Western intellectuals of a certain mindset generall see everyone as "part of the problem" other than themselves. This utopianism is evident in all political and religious philosophies though, from neoliberals who believe that no regulation in economic life will lead to a bright McTopia, while Marxists think you can defeat human nature with social engineering, religious extremists who think scriptures can be used to secure some form of human paradise on earth, very conservative "small government" people who think you can replace the role of governance with general anarchy, or new agers and tree huggers who think that somehow we can give up on the use of any technology developed since 1950, revert to a medival existence and that this will lead us back to some golden age of pagan "innocence".
The main problem that in reality most people are unable to consider themselves simply morally neutral "citizens of planet earth" with no particularist self-interests, but of course we all actually are self-interested, life is series of compromises with each other, occasionally breaking down into conflict over resouces; and which is why we will always, always need to have soliders, and tax collectors, and policemen, and judges, and jails, and laws, and rules, and all of those things that provide a platform for society to funtion, by repressing the basic fact that there are no such things as self-inforcing rules, instead there are mores that are maintained by society itself by internal pressure on its own members, and their are explicit rules that are maintained usually by a system of law.
You could I supose lobotomize human beings into automotons through genetic engineering, whereby everyone will no longer pursue their own interests but embrace some sort of collective species-wide existence, but they wouldn't be human beings as I would recognize them.
As one intelligent but cynical person once remarked, no one alive is innocent, everyone is either a willing or unwilling part of a wider system that involves something that can be considered repression, everyone is a justified target of someone else. Some people would see innocence personified as a child, but children are just adults that haven't grown up yet, one day they will do something that will perpeturate one repressive system or another. The only way to get rid of evil or guilt on planet earth would be to get rid of people, period, all people.
You see this is the problem when you start the utopian moral relativism thing, in that who gets to determine what is acceptable in terms of views and actions and what isn't? Ultimately if its not a commonly agreed system of legality involving lots of arbitrary compromises developed over time and due to events, then it will be a group of angry, bright-eyed young men with guns and lots of doctrinare ideas about right and wrong, based on what they think is right and what your doing is wrong.
You tend to find that utopian (usually Marxist) Western intellectuals of a certain mindset generall see everyone as "part of the problem" other than themselves. This utopianism is evident in all political and religious philosophies though, from neoliberals who believe that no regulation in economic life will lead to a bright McTopia, while Marxists think you can defeat human nature with social engineering, religious extremists who think scriptures can be used to secure some form of human paradise on earth, very conservative "small government" people who think you can replace the role of governance with general anarchy, or new agers and tree huggers who think that somehow we can give up on the use of any technology developed since 1950, revert to a medival existence and that this will lead us back to some golden age of pagan "innocence".
The main problem that in reality most people are unable to consider themselves simply morally neutral "citizens of planet earth" with no particularist self-interests, but of course we all actually are self-interested, life is series of compromises with each other, occasionally breaking down into conflict over resouces; and which is why we will always, always need to have soliders, and tax collectors, and policemen, and judges, and jails, and laws, and rules, and all of those things that provide a platform for society to funtion, by repressing the basic fact that there are no such things as self-inforcing rules, instead there are mores that are maintained by society itself by internal pressure on its own members, and their are explicit rules that are maintained usually by a system of law.
You could I supose lobotomize human beings into automotons through genetic engineering, whereby everyone will no longer pursue their own interests but embrace some sort of collective species-wide existence, but they wouldn't be human beings as I would recognize them.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
spot;1158400 wrote: The Luton protesters made no such call. What's more, they're not competent to make such a call. They reasonably protested at the abuse involved in sending the British armed forces abroad to attempt regime change. They protest it, I protest it. Either you can demonstrate that they're collectively attempting to raise Jihad or you can't. I've seen no evidence of it.
try these links
Islamic radicals make mockery of hate laws | News
"It is our religious obligation to prepare ourselves both physically and mentally and rise up against Muslim oppression and take what is rightfully ours," he said. "Jihad is a duty and a struggle and an obligation that lies upon the shoulders of us all. We will not rest until the flag of Allah and the flag of Islam is raised above 10 Downing Street."
To loud cheers of "Allah Akbar" [God is great], he railed: "There are three types of Muslims, those in prison, those of us that are on our way [to prison] and non-practising Muslims. Brothers and sisters, if you do not fear your home being raided by the Kufar [non-believer] police, you are not enforcing the Sharia."
Later, in front of a huge banner that exhorted "Muslims rise against British oppression", he introduced the star turn, 50-year-old Omar Bakri, who was standing by in Lebanon. A giant screen, six-feet high and six-feet wide, had been set up to project the image of the extremist known as "the Tottenham Ayatollah". He was refused re-entry to the UK in 2005 as "not conducive to the public good" after vowing that Muslims would "give the West a 9/11 day after day after day".
Hate cleric leads jihad cash appeal - Times Online
‘Britain’s most reviled man? I wear that badge with pride’ | News
But if he hates the British way of life, why stay? "There are parts of the lifestyle, such as fish and chips, I like very much," he quips. "For the rest," he shakes his head. "But I was born in this country, I was educated here, I have every right to stay."
He refuses, though, to see any hypocrisy in the fact that his East London-based family - he is separated from his wife, Rubana Akhtar, with whom he has three young children, aged 13, nine and three - live on benefits of allegedly £25,000 a year, funded by the taxpayers he despises.
He does not deny that he receives benefits (he won't confirm how much), or that he uses the NHS, or that his children attend state-funded faith schools, but he bristles at my proposition that taking handouts compromises his position.
"I don't think it's of any importance," he says. "People think that those who live off benefits are in some way criminal or less intelligent. It's a way of vilifying me, but it's irrelevant to my ideological views and to what I do."
If i use the phrase canting hypocrite am i being anti islamic?
Jihad amid the dreaming spires
YouTube - Anjem Choudary all out war
YouTube - Military Coup In The UK
Don't particularly agree with geert wilders but at least he's not calling for the overthrow of democratic government and it's replacement with a theorcracy.
YouTube - European Censorship
posted by kazalala
what i was asking spot was does he think that those who sign up know full well that the government are just using them, that they know these wars are unjustified, that they dont even care,, they just want a trade or they just want to fight for their own personal satisfaction? Does he think they are consiously making the decision to sign up for personal gain? Both my Husband and my son were in the RAF,, im well aware of the lies they are told
It's almost a british tradition that our armed forces get shafted by politicians. of course youngsters joining up don't really understand the issues but the first time someone shoots at them or one of their mates gets killed they probably become very politically aware.
These Islamic protesters know full well the effect of what they are doing. Or are they just following blindly and don't really understand the issues and being cynically used by fundamentalists? Anjem Choudary intends to provoke and knows the possible consequences of what he says and does. perhaps better than those teenage soldiers he is so keen to vilify.
Save your ire for the politicians and those who bear the real blame for all of this. The politicians who got us in to this mess in the first place. A lot of people in this country got taken in by tony blair and his cronies gordon brown and the like are all responsible. If he had any integrity gordon brown would withdraw all the troops, resign from the labour party and call a general election. But he doesn't have one iota of the integrity and sense of duty that the troops show.
I don't expect you to agree that the troops are capable of integrity or possess a sense of duty but be damned to all the pussyfooting around. You're a pillock and I don't agree with you. Oscar's admiration of a man who was one of the main architects of our involvement in iraq and afghanistan-not to mention his role in the present financial morass we are in is sickening and just plain irritating. You can't condemn the troops for joining up on the one hand and at the same time lionise one of the pillocks that got us in to this mess as a saviour of the planet. It's not just the the soldiers that are gullible is it?:sneaky:
These islamic protesters-if they keep doing this may well find out that for all the tolerance and softness they think we exhibit we also one of the most violent people on the planet with a capacity for doing harm that beggars belief. On the whole that is a good thing if it comes to warfare. But it does mean if the protesters manage to provoke the kind of reaction they think they want it may surprise them in it's intensity.
try these links
Islamic radicals make mockery of hate laws | News
"It is our religious obligation to prepare ourselves both physically and mentally and rise up against Muslim oppression and take what is rightfully ours," he said. "Jihad is a duty and a struggle and an obligation that lies upon the shoulders of us all. We will not rest until the flag of Allah and the flag of Islam is raised above 10 Downing Street."
To loud cheers of "Allah Akbar" [God is great], he railed: "There are three types of Muslims, those in prison, those of us that are on our way [to prison] and non-practising Muslims. Brothers and sisters, if you do not fear your home being raided by the Kufar [non-believer] police, you are not enforcing the Sharia."
Later, in front of a huge banner that exhorted "Muslims rise against British oppression", he introduced the star turn, 50-year-old Omar Bakri, who was standing by in Lebanon. A giant screen, six-feet high and six-feet wide, had been set up to project the image of the extremist known as "the Tottenham Ayatollah". He was refused re-entry to the UK in 2005 as "not conducive to the public good" after vowing that Muslims would "give the West a 9/11 day after day after day".
Hate cleric leads jihad cash appeal - Times Online
‘Britain’s most reviled man? I wear that badge with pride’ | News
But if he hates the British way of life, why stay? "There are parts of the lifestyle, such as fish and chips, I like very much," he quips. "For the rest," he shakes his head. "But I was born in this country, I was educated here, I have every right to stay."
He refuses, though, to see any hypocrisy in the fact that his East London-based family - he is separated from his wife, Rubana Akhtar, with whom he has three young children, aged 13, nine and three - live on benefits of allegedly £25,000 a year, funded by the taxpayers he despises.
He does not deny that he receives benefits (he won't confirm how much), or that he uses the NHS, or that his children attend state-funded faith schools, but he bristles at my proposition that taking handouts compromises his position.
"I don't think it's of any importance," he says. "People think that those who live off benefits are in some way criminal or less intelligent. It's a way of vilifying me, but it's irrelevant to my ideological views and to what I do."
If i use the phrase canting hypocrite am i being anti islamic?
Jihad amid the dreaming spires
YouTube - Anjem Choudary all out war
YouTube - Military Coup In The UK
Don't particularly agree with geert wilders but at least he's not calling for the overthrow of democratic government and it's replacement with a theorcracy.
YouTube - European Censorship
posted by kazalala
what i was asking spot was does he think that those who sign up know full well that the government are just using them, that they know these wars are unjustified, that they dont even care,, they just want a trade or they just want to fight for their own personal satisfaction? Does he think they are consiously making the decision to sign up for personal gain? Both my Husband and my son were in the RAF,, im well aware of the lies they are told
It's almost a british tradition that our armed forces get shafted by politicians. of course youngsters joining up don't really understand the issues but the first time someone shoots at them or one of their mates gets killed they probably become very politically aware.
These Islamic protesters know full well the effect of what they are doing. Or are they just following blindly and don't really understand the issues and being cynically used by fundamentalists? Anjem Choudary intends to provoke and knows the possible consequences of what he says and does. perhaps better than those teenage soldiers he is so keen to vilify.
Save your ire for the politicians and those who bear the real blame for all of this. The politicians who got us in to this mess in the first place. A lot of people in this country got taken in by tony blair and his cronies gordon brown and the like are all responsible. If he had any integrity gordon brown would withdraw all the troops, resign from the labour party and call a general election. But he doesn't have one iota of the integrity and sense of duty that the troops show.
I don't expect you to agree that the troops are capable of integrity or possess a sense of duty but be damned to all the pussyfooting around. You're a pillock and I don't agree with you. Oscar's admiration of a man who was one of the main architects of our involvement in iraq and afghanistan-not to mention his role in the present financial morass we are in is sickening and just plain irritating. You can't condemn the troops for joining up on the one hand and at the same time lionise one of the pillocks that got us in to this mess as a saviour of the planet. It's not just the the soldiers that are gullible is it?:sneaky:
These islamic protesters-if they keep doing this may well find out that for all the tolerance and softness they think we exhibit we also one of the most violent people on the planet with a capacity for doing harm that beggars belief. On the whole that is a good thing if it comes to warfare. But it does mean if the protesters manage to provoke the kind of reaction they think they want it may surprise them in it's intensity.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
of course youngsters joining up don't really understand the issues but the first time someone shoots at them or one of their mates gets killed they probably become very politically aware.
That makes sense, i mean 17 and 18 years old? maybe thats too young to be joining up I dunno a wet t shirt contest is stopped because of health and safety issues, but a 17 year old can go to war:rolleyes:what a crazy world.
That makes sense, i mean 17 and 18 years old? maybe thats too young to be joining up
I dunno a wet t shirt contest is stopped because of health and safety issues, but a 17 year old can go to war:rolleyes:what a crazy world.FOC THREAD PART1
In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
Martin Luther King Jr.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
kazalala;1158593 wrote: That makes sense, i mean 17 and 18 years old? maybe thats too young to be joining up I dunno a wet t shirt contest is stopped because of health and safety issues, but a 17 year old can go to war:rolleyes:what a crazy world.
I had no interest or understanding of politics when I was that age.
I dunno a wet t shirt contest is stopped because of health and safety issues, but a 17 year old can go to war:rolleyes:what a crazy world.I had no interest or understanding of politics when I was that age.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
OpenMind;1158595 wrote: I had no interest or understanding of politics when I was that age.
exactly,, i suppose there are some young people that do have a great interst in it at a young age,, but maybe not the majority. I also think leaving school at 16 is mad! I think they should start school later and leave later,, what sense have you got at 16:-3:o
exactly,, i suppose there are some young people that do have a great interst in it at a young age,, but maybe not the majority. I also think leaving school at 16 is mad! I think they should start school later and leave later,, what sense have you got at 16:-3:o
FOC THREAD PART1
In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
Martin Luther King Jr.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
kazalala;1158596 wrote: exactly,, i suppose there are some young people that do have a great interst in it at a young age,, but maybe not the majority. I also think leaving school at 16 is mad! I think they should start school later and leave later,, what sense have you got at 16:-3:o
On that last point, I tend to disagree with you there. You cannot get any real experience of the working world at school and the present work experience is just a joke. For myself, when I reflect back on my own life, I could have done with spending time out in a work environment for a couple of years before taking my o-levels. That way, I would have had a better idea of what subjects to pursue. The law at the moment doesn't allow this. Yet, it should only be an option. It shouldn't be forced on those who know which subjects they want to pursue.
On that last point, I tend to disagree with you there. You cannot get any real experience of the working world at school and the present work experience is just a joke. For myself, when I reflect back on my own life, I could have done with spending time out in a work environment for a couple of years before taking my o-levels. That way, I would have had a better idea of what subjects to pursue. The law at the moment doesn't allow this. Yet, it should only be an option. It shouldn't be forced on those who know which subjects they want to pursue.
muslim fanatics hurl hate abuse at our soldiers the AAgrumpy column
There is a threat somewhere back in FG called "imagine a planet with no soliders".
Soliders are not the problem, soliders and war a symptom of the problem, which is human nature, human nature always has been and always will be what defines why we do the things we do, and as long as their are people alive, there will be violence, pain, fear, despair, hate, love, kindness, forgiveness, grace. You can have the best laws, the best system, the best regulations and enforcement, and education system, and health care, and all of that, but you can stop events being caused by human stupidity or human failings.
You cannot legislate these things away, or use technology to get rid of them, they are a part of the human condition. The only way to do that would be to kill all people, or alter them so dramatically that they are no longer human.
No one wants that, do they? The only solution is to seek compromises to the reality of the human condition, so that enough people can live with themselves and each other, for long enough so that some semblance of order is maintained. That's about it, everything else tends to happen by accident or by the machinations of a few or even one great personality, the great events, the wars, the peaces, the highs, the lows, all of it, from the rise of civilization itself, to the modern age.
Look at the credit crunch, we are all angry, baffled, bewlidered, disillusioned, we want justice and equity and a new start, we may get some of that (as much as can be tolerated by those that make decisions) but you cannot eliminate greed, you cannot end vanity, you cannot remove hubris from the human heart. No more than you can have a war on "Terror" using tanks and ships.
However, you can just make the price of these things, these actions, much higher again, so that people will have a more healthy dose of fear when it comes to having to deal with the consequences of their venality, or their violence, or their inhumanity. Its rare in history that it happens, but occasionally it does, and that's probably why despite all the evidence to the contrary we continue to hope, and of all human emotions, surely hope is the one that we always need the most.
Soliders are not the problem, soliders and war a symptom of the problem, which is human nature, human nature always has been and always will be what defines why we do the things we do, and as long as their are people alive, there will be violence, pain, fear, despair, hate, love, kindness, forgiveness, grace. You can have the best laws, the best system, the best regulations and enforcement, and education system, and health care, and all of that, but you can stop events being caused by human stupidity or human failings.
You cannot legislate these things away, or use technology to get rid of them, they are a part of the human condition. The only way to do that would be to kill all people, or alter them so dramatically that they are no longer human.
No one wants that, do they? The only solution is to seek compromises to the reality of the human condition, so that enough people can live with themselves and each other, for long enough so that some semblance of order is maintained. That's about it, everything else tends to happen by accident or by the machinations of a few or even one great personality, the great events, the wars, the peaces, the highs, the lows, all of it, from the rise of civilization itself, to the modern age.
Look at the credit crunch, we are all angry, baffled, bewlidered, disillusioned, we want justice and equity and a new start, we may get some of that (as much as can be tolerated by those that make decisions) but you cannot eliminate greed, you cannot end vanity, you cannot remove hubris from the human heart. No more than you can have a war on "Terror" using tanks and ships.
However, you can just make the price of these things, these actions, much higher again, so that people will have a more healthy dose of fear when it comes to having to deal with the consequences of their venality, or their violence, or their inhumanity. Its rare in history that it happens, but occasionally it does, and that's probably why despite all the evidence to the contrary we continue to hope, and of all human emotions, surely hope is the one that we always need the most.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.