thoughts on evolution please

farmer giles · Post by **farmer giles** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:15 am

i have tried to find my faith i really have but although i went to church and meetings it somehow failed to happen for me

i am a member of a few forums and on one of them the members are having a great debate about it ,not none of that post link proving nothing :yh_rotfl

i was talking to my god squad mate and he started going on about god in a nice way then he said some people say we come from monkeys ,what a load of rubbish if we came from monkeys why are there still monkeys about ???

at this point i should of just nodded in agreement and said nothing but for some reason i said yes but paul we do still have tail bones that we dont use anymore maybe there is a chance that evolution could of happened

at this point he got quite upset and started spouting stuff like i suppose life just happened to start up on its own then

i did not answer , i just looked away ,but he go even more annoyed with me and said well could it of just sprung up on its own without god starting it huh ????

and at this point i should not of said well where did god come from then mate :-5:-5but i did:-5:-5:-5

he went into full attack mode saying stuff like the devil puts fossils in the ground to ruin mans faith etc (watch the lewis black youtube sketch)

i'm happy to say i kept my mouth shut from this point and he calmed down and we are still friends

i guess when it comes to god i want to be proven wrong i want there to be one when my friend talks about god any thoughts that evolution happens disproves god exists and this upsets him

so thoughts on evolution please .. any one who might act like my friend please stay off of the thread or start a evolutionists will burn in hell thread which i will gladly stay out of

farmer giles · Post by **farmer giles** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:30 am

this is quite interesting

YouTube - Creationist and Reasonble Doubt Mirror for DonExodus2

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:32 am

farmer giles;1216320 wrote:

i was talking to my god squad mate and he started going on about god in a nice way then he said some people say we come from monkeys ,what a load of rubbish if we came from monkeys why are there still monkeys about ???

Humans did not evolve from monkey's.

Evolution: Online Lessons for Students: Lesson 5

farmer giles · Post by **farmer giles** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:09 am

if you can keep seperate origin of life and evolution

the evolution can seen to be working beyond any reasonable doubt

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:54 am

You're trying to find scientific proof of faith?

Evidence abounds of a species evolving through natural selection into a better species. No one's found any evidence of one species 'evolving' into another, such as a robin laying an eagle egg or something like that.

We have five fingers, five toes. The odd human has six, but that's considered anomaly. Most animals have similar bone structure. Bats, for instance, have five finger bones in their wings. Horses & such have fewer, but the structure is still there. We all have the same number of joints from hip to foot.

Proving or disproving evolution will do nothing for you faith, because faith isn't based on science. Faith is believing in the absence of evidence.

The first time you let a child or a pet out of your sight, you have little real evidence that they will come back, but you have faith. Sorry that's the best analogy I could come up with on short notice.

Stop trying to find proof of faith. It only causes stress. Think of the times good things happened when there was no proof it would come out right. Maybe that'll get a ball rolling.

ETA: OO! OO! I just thought of this: you're placing too much faith in science. Science can't prove everything. There's no proof that scientific study can help your faith in God, yet you have faith that it will anyway.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:05 am

YouTube - UC Berkeley Event (1/6) - Richard Dawkins

It's something you need to make up your own mind about. The more I read and study the less religious I become. I find also many religious people do not want to think about their beliefs and why they believe what they do. In turn They want you to just accept their truth without question and without accepting the validity of anything that might not agree with that belief. When they find themselves unable to defend their belief to their own satisfaction often the argument turns in to an attack on the character of the person disagreeing with them. Whomsoever they can't convert they would destroy instead and the most cursory glance through history will throw up umpteen examples where that kind of mentality has held sway and there are plenty around who think that way even now and given half a chance would have us all bowing heads to their one god.

A secular society can tolerate different faiths, lifestyles, belief systems and live and let live. A religious one can't, for all the sentiments about tolerance and understanding there is always an-except for-----those and such as those, and by the way never question. The problem is not that secularists won't tolerate religion it's that religious people want the right to stop anyone suggesting there might be a different way to view things and demand respect and the right to push their beliefs while at the same time trying to shut up non believers.

Biggest problem we have in the UK is in separate religious schools-it was bad enough catholic/protestant now we have Muslim in the mix as well. They perpetuate bigotry in a way that should perhaps not be tolerated. Keep religion out of schools except as a general subject.

farmer giles · Post by **farmer giles** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:33 am

Accountable;1216360 wrote: You're trying to find scientific proof of faith?

there is no proof to be found as i believe he/she/it does not exist maybe i'm looking for proof that evolution exsists ..who knows

[QUOTE=gmc;1216364]YouTube - UC Berkeley Event (1/6) - Richard Dawkins

It's something you need to make up your own mind about. The more I read and study the less religious I become. I find also many religious people do not want to think about their beliefs and why they believe what they do. In turn They want you to just accept their truth without question and without accepting the validity of anything that might not agree with that belief. When they find themselves unable to defend their belief to their own satisfaction often the argument turns in to an attack on the character of the person disagreeing with them. Whomsoever they can't convert they would destroy instead and the most cursory glance through history will throw up umpteen examples where that kind of mentality has held sway and there are plenty around who think that way even now and given half a chance would have us all bowing heads to their one god.

A secular society can tolerate different faiths, lifestyles, belief systems and live and let live. A religious one can't, for all the sentiments about tolerance and understanding there is always an-except for-----those and such as those, and by the way never question. The problem is not that secularists won't tolerate religion it's that religious people want the right to stop anyone suggesting there might be a different way to view things and demand respect and the right to push their beliefs while at the same time trying to shut up non believers.

Biggest problem we have in the UK is in separate religious schools-it was bad enough catholic/protestant now we have Muslim in the mix as well. They perpetuate bigotry in a way that should perhaps not be tolerated. Keep religion out of schools except as a general subject.
a fantastic post i agree with every word ,i wish i had your word skills to get my points across in such a way :-6:-6

Richard Bell · Post by **Richard Bell** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:51 am

farmer giles;1216320 wrote:

i was talking to my god squad mate and he started going on about god in a nice way then he said some people say we come from monkeys ,what a load of rubbish if we came from monkeys why are there still monkeys about ???

...because humans didn't evolve from monkeys, no more than the domestic housecat evolved from lions or tigers.

Modern primates (including homo sapiens) branched off from a common ancestor about six million years ago. Since that time. we have evolved along our own paths. That's why there are lemurs, monkeys, apes, and homo sapiens today. Our species have evolved and adapted along the way to become what we are today, whether you are a human being, gorilla, or howler monkey.

You can see it in other species as well. Felines branched off from a common ancestor in the distant past, giving rise to civets, lynx, tigers, lions, wildcats, jaguars, cougars, housecats, etc., all of which coexist in the modern world.

FUBAR · Post by **FUBAR** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:06 am

gmc;1216364 wrote: YouTube - UC Berkeley Event (1/6) - Richard Dawkins

It's something you need to make up your own mind about. The more I read and study the less religious I become. I find also many religious people do not want to think about their beliefs and why they believe what they do. In turn They want you to just accept their truth without question and without accepting the validity of anything that might not agree with that belief. When they find themselves unable to defend their belief to their own satisfaction often the argument turns in to an attack on the character of the person disagreeing with them. Whomsoever they can't convert they would destroy instead and the most cursory glance through history will throw up umpteen examples where that kind of mentality has held sway and there are plenty around who think that way even now and given half a chance would have us all bowing heads to their one god.

A secular society can tolerate different faiths, lifestyles, belief systems and live and let live. A religious one can't, for all the sentiments about tolerance and understanding there is always an-except for-----those and such as those, and by the way never question. The problem is not that secularists won't tolerate religion it's that religious people want the right to stop anyone suggesting there might be a different way to view things and demand respect and the right to push their beliefs while at the same time trying to shut up non believers.

Biggest problem we have in the UK is in separate religious schools-it was bad enough catholic/protestant now we have Muslim in the mix as well. They perpetuate bigotry in a way that should perhaps not be tolerated. Keep religion out of schools except as a general subject.

Very well put. I think that the only reason that there the different religions aren't exterminating each other is that the west has so many secular governments. No government with a strong religious element can resist the push to enforce their religion on everybody. No matter what they say Iran and Saudi do not have religious freedom for all.

And evolution happens all the time. Look at the latest one--swine flu. When the World Health talks about the threat of if mutating they really mean it could evolve into something more virulent. Evolution is just a mutation that gives a species a better or more efficient way of doing something, It's just the smaller and faster the life cycle the faster the changes, without evolution brought about by selective breeding every domesticated animal and plant wouldn't exist.

farmer giles · Post by **farmer giles** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:20 am

Richard Bell;1216429 wrote: ...because humans didn't evolve from monkeys, no more than the domestic housecat evolved from lions or tigers.

Modern primates (including homo sapiens) branched off from a common ancestor about six million years ago. Since that time. we have evolved along our own paths. That's why there are lemurs, monkeys, apes, and homo sapiens today. Our species have evolved and adapted along the way to become what we are today, whether you are a human being, gorilla, or howler monkey.

You can see it in other species as well. Felines branched off from a common ancestor in the distant past, giving rise to civets, lynx, tigers, lions, wildcats, jaguars, cougars, housecats, etc., all of which coexist in the modern world.

good post ,next time he says that to me i'll richard bell him :sneaky::sneaky:

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:59 pm

farmer giles;1216372 wrote: [QUOTE=Accountable;1216360]You're trying to find scientific proof of faith?

there is no proof to be found as i believe he/she/it does not exist maybe i'm looking for proof that evolution exsists ..who knows

a fantastic post i agree with every word ,i wish i had your word skills to get my points across in such a way :-6:-6

Thank you. But actually, having to think about what I post here has improved my communication skills considerably I think. Having your arguments being picked apart by fellow posters and trying to put things across to people whose world view is so different to your own doesn't half make you think.

you might find this of interest-it's in paperback as well

The Seven Daughters of Eve (hardcover) (Main Page)

YouTube - Part 1 DNA - Science Says

posted by fubar

Very well put. I think that the only reason that there the different religions aren't exterminating each other is that the west has so many secular governments. No government with a strong religious element can resist the push to enforce their religion on everybody. No matter what they say Iran and Saudi do not have religious freedom for all.

If you look at European religious wars and the deaths and devastation they caused you begin to understand how we ended up with mainly secular governments.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:58 pm

A book you would enjoy reading would be Evolution by Steve Baxter. He puts a nice twist into it too.

The Seven Daughters of Eve is quite heavy going in places though the separate depictions of the lives of each of Eve's daughters make entertaining reading. That research is still going on now.

farmer giles · Post by **farmer giles** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:04 pm

OpenMind;1216537 wrote: A book you would enjoy reading would be Evolution by Steve Baxter. He puts a nice twist into it too.

The Seven Daughters of Eve is quite heavy going in places though the separate depictions of the lives of each of Eve's daughters make entertaining reading. That research is still going on now.

thanks open mind

is that the book that says we all come from africa at some point

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:10 pm

One thing you can say about Evolution is that it keeps evolving.:-6

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:50 am

farmer giles;1216542 wrote: thanks open mind

is that the book that says we all come from africa at some point

'The Seven Daughters of Eve' were traced back to North Africa. This book explores the movement of humans over the centuries beginning with these women. For reasons he wouldn't give, the author wouldn't go further back than the seven women all of whom lived at different times. But he finishes the book by writing a story depicting the probable lives of these women which is interesting to read.

'Evolution' depicts one possible evoltion of mankind beginning with prehistoric animals and is based on research the author did with scientists.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:48 am

OpenMind;1216636 wrote: 'The Seven Daughters of Eve' were traced back to North Africa. This book explores the movement of humans over the centuries beginning with these women. For reasons he wouldn't give, the author wouldn't go further back than the seven women all of whom lived at different times. But he finishes the book by writing a story depicting the probable lives of these women which is interesting to read.

'Evolution' depicts one possible evoltion of mankind beginning with prehistoric animals and is based on research the author did with scientists.

Actually he does make it clear in chapter 14 (guess who has just read it) There are seven major genetic clusters from which 96% of europeans can trace their descent. The book was about the origin of Europeans not the rest of the world and this research has finally laid to rest the controversy over whether Neanderthals have any part in our make up and also the once popular theory that the hunter gatherers in europe had been displaced by more advanced farmers moving out of the middle east. They weren't.

DNA research is new technology, the conclusions put forth in the book are less than ten years old. It is not a belief but a scientific theory which means if new evidence comes along that stands up to scrutiny it may change or be superseded.

He doesn't finish the book with stories about each of the seven he finishes it with a summary of how things stand at the time of printing.

Over the last ten years research from all corners of the globe have come up with 26 clans of equivalent status in the world making the total 33 world wide of those 33, 13 are from africa. It appears on the face of it hat one of those thirteen at some point moved out of africa and spawned the other 20. Clearly there is a lot of questions still to be answered.

This is all brand new research and of course the religious have leapt on it as proof of the existence of eve and therefore the truth of the garden of eden myth while continuing to ignore scientific evidence that points to conclusions they don't want to think about.

'Evolution' depicts one possible evoltion of mankind beginning with prehistoric animals and is based on research the author did with scientists.

despite wondering what kind of experiments he did on the scientists I think I'll have a hunt for that book.

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:07 am

From a very early age (at Sunday school), I have always questioned some people's belief that, for instance, a 'being' came along, got some materials together and fashioned a human being ! This was at the age of around 7 years old. I have always been taught to ask questions - about anything!

It seemed obvious, to me at that tender age, that the human being just could not have been 'manufactured' and presented to the earth as a finished article!

I have read all sorts of books about such things, and watched so many fascinating documentaries on the TV about how the human being came to exist on earth, and it wasn't through being moulded from a lump of plasticine or similar! The human being, and other species evolved initially from very basic living cells, and from an existence beneath the sea. During this evolution, certain species carried on evolving, whilst others stagnated at a certain stage of evolution, for various reasons - adapting to environment, conditions like climate, etc., hence the differences between species that we find today.

Another school of thought is that at one time Mars was inhabited, but those inhabitants realised that their planet was 'dying', so they searched for another planet that could support them - they found Earth, moved here, and set up home.

They, being fairly territorial, split into different 'groups', some of which 'cloned' the apes so that these creatures could become 'the fighting force' to protect that particular group against any other 'group' which may want to take over an area. This strange thought would possibly account for certain similarities between the human being and the ape, as we know them today. The original 'Martians' would have been far more advanced than anything we know about at present.

This last thought is really as vast a subject as the 'evolution' subject, and therefore really needs a thread to itself. No I aint starting one, I really haven't got the knowledge or inclination.

As an after-thought, no Spot I am not providing 'links', or checkable evidence to back up all the above, they are merely my own thoughts about things that I find fairly intriguing. No doubt you may be able to shoot me down in flames, but I really don't care. They are my thoughts !

It is healthy to question everything !

I do believe............................... I believe in myself ! :-6

farmer giles · Post by **farmer giles** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:18 am

G#Gill;1216644 wrote: From a very early age (at Sunday school), I have always questioned some people's belief that, for instance, a 'being' came along, got some materials together and fashioned a human being ! This was at the age of around 7 years old. I have always been taught to ask questions - about anything!

It seemed obvious, to me at that tender age, that the human being just could not have been 'manufactured' and presented to the earth as a finished article!

I have read all sorts of books about such things, and watched so many fascinating documentaries on the TV about how the human being came to exist on earth, and it wasn't through being moulded from a lump of plasticine or similar! The human being, and other species evolved initially from very basic living cells, and from an existence beneath the sea. During this evolution, certain species carried on evolving, whilst others stagnated at a certain stage of evolution, for various reasons - adapting to environment, conditions like climate, etc., hence the differences between species that we find today.

Another school of thought is that at one time Mars was inhabited, but those inhabitants realised that their planet was 'dying', so they searched for another planet that could support them - they found Earth, moved here, and set up home.

They, being fairly territorial, split into different 'groups', some of which 'cloned' the apes so that these creatures could become 'the fighting force' to protect that particular group against any other 'group' which may want to take over an area. This strange thought would possibly account for certain similarities between the human being and the ape, as we know them today. The original 'Martians' would have been far more advanced than anything we know about at present.

This last thought is really as vast a subject as the 'evolution' subject, and therefore really needs a thread to itself. No I aint starting one, I really haven't got the knowledge or inclination.

As an after-thought, no Spot I am not providing 'links', or checkable evidence to back up all the above, they are merely my own thoughts about things that I find fairly intriguing. No doubt you may be able to shoot me down in flames, but I really don't care. They are my thoughts !

It is healthy to question everything !

I do believe............................... I believe in myself ! :-6

i have just checked snopes and it does seem that these are indeed gills own thoughts :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

great theory gill ,the thing i cant get my head round is how angry the god squad get when you talk about evolution ,but it makes more sense than a super being that has always been there and watches every thing we do yet never helps out and refuses to show himself,he will give you unconditional love on the condition you do everything he says,or else this loving god will burn you in hell for eternity :rolleyes::rolleyes:

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:25 am

farmer giles;1216648 wrote: i have just checked snopes and it does seem that these are indeed gills own thoughts :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

great theory gill ,the thing i cant get my head round is how angry the god squad get when you talk about evolution ,but it makes more sense than a super being that has always been there and watches every thing we do yet never helps out and refuses to show himself,he will give you unconditional love on the condition you do everything he says,or else this loving god will burn you in hell for eternity :rolleyes::rolleyes:

One of their favourite sayings is 'The Lord helps those who help themselves' in other words, as far as I can tell, you just have to get on with it yourself and not expect help from anybody or any thing. It's their way of excusing the lack of assistance from this 'super being'. As I say................ I believe in myself !

:-6

farmer giles · Post by **farmer giles** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:56 am

G#Gill;1216649 wrote: One of their favourite sayings is 'The Lord helps those who help themselves' in other words, as far as I can tell, you just have to get on with it yourself and not expect help from anybody or any thing. It's their way of excusing the lack of assistance from this 'super being'. As I say................ I believe in myself !

:-6

here is a great post i borrowed :sneaky:

some people have such a way with words ...i dont hence me borrowing his/hers :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

Something from nothing is not a scientific enigma, as long as the "something" is informationally simple.

Virtual particles are created/destroyed all the time from "nothing" - energy borrowed from quantum fluctuations. There is no magic or complexity. The Big Bang theory starts with the simplest thing possible - unstructured energy decaying into the simplest form of matter.

But any creator God would have to be hugely informationally complex. In any creation theory, it is the complexity that has to be explained.

The Big Bang starts simple, and becomes complex over time. That seems both natural and echoes our own evolution. (that's really the only tie between the subjects IMO)

Now how do you start with complexity? A God complex enough to do all the creating, but with an unknown heritage? Where does all the organised information come from to make a god?

Incidentally, Darwin's great leap was in explaining how the organised complexity of life could arise from simple beginnings - something that had previously baffled people and pushed them towards religious "magical" models. Such information comes in truly microscopic steps over billions of years. It is the ratcheting effect of evolution that adds up tiny inputs over time that was the revelation.(sic)

By complexity, I don't mean complexity of form. Throw a handful of dust on the floor, and the result will be a unique and complex pattern. But such a pattern would contain little or no organised complex information.

It is the origin of the organised complexity of God's information content which is unexplained by priests. The scientific model is a good one for explaining the increasing information complexity of the visible universe, and indeed, ourselves.

If the alternative model is "an enormously complex God did it" then it simply leaves more to be explained IMHO.

BTW: Where did the information content come from to start this thread? Ultimately; biological and memetic Darwinian evolution. I thought that was implicit in the analogy, but didn't add to it.

farmer giles · Post by **farmer giles** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:58 am

ps i may or may not of borrowed some of spot's or gmc's posts to make me look like i'm not a moron on my other forum :yh_rotfl:

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:00 am

gmc;1216640 wrote: Actually he does make it clear in chapter 14 (guess who has just read it) There are seven major genetic clusters from which 96% of europeans can trace their descent. The book was about the origin of Europeans not the rest of the world and this research has finally laid to rest the controversy over whether Neanderthals have any part in our make up and also the once popular theory that the hunter gatherers in europe had been displaced by more advanced farmers moving out of the middle east. They weren't.

DNA research is new technology, the conclusions put forth in the book are less than ten years old. It is not a belief but a scientific theory which means if new evidence comes along that stands up to scrutiny it may change or be superseded.

He doesn't finish the book with stories about each of the seven he finishes it with a summary of how things stand at the time of printing.

Over the last ten years research from all corners of the globe have come up with 26 clans of equivalent status in the world making the total 33 world wide of those 33, 13 are from africa. It appears on the face of it hat one of those thirteen at some point moved out of africa and spawned the other 20. Clearly there is a lot of questions still to be answered.

This is all brand new research and of course the religious have leapt on it as proof of the existence of eve and therefore the truth of the garden of eden myth while continuing to ignore scientific evidence that points to conclusions they don't want to think about.

'

despite wondering what kind of experiments he did on the scientists I think I'll have a hunt for that book.

Ok. I forgot about the summary but he does dedicate a chapter depicting a likely lifestyle of each of the women. He takes into account the time period they lived in and incorporates a number of artefacts that have been found.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by what kind of experiments he did on the scientists. All he did was to take a sample of body tissue to examine the mitochondrial DNA.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:13 am

One of the interesting things that Bryan Sykes discovered is that disasters experienced by a populace is reflected in the DNA and passed on to the next generation. If I get time today, I'll try and find where he used the Irish potato famine as an example of this.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:57 am

OpenMind;1216658 wrote: Ok. I forgot about the summary but he does dedicate a chapter depicting a likely lifestyle of each of the women. He takes into account the time period they lived in and incorporates a number of artefacts that have been found.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by what kind of experiments he did on the scientists. All he did was to take a sample of body tissue to examine the mitochondrial DNA.

Evolution' depicts one possible evoltion of mankind beginning with prehistoric animals and is based on research the author did with scientists.

It was a feeble attempt at humour. the way you phrased it suggested the author of evolution, steve baxter, might have done research on the scientists rather than the fossils

posted by farmer giles

i guess when it comes to god i want to be proven wrong i want there to be one when my friend talks about god any thoughts that evolution happens disproves god exists and this upsets him

If you could prove god exists then you wouldn't need faith would you? You wouldn't need any of the various religions to interpret for you so perhaps the churches have a vested interest in never having the existence of god proven. So any scientific endeavour that might challenge the literal belief in the writings of the bible is a challenge to their authority. It's not evolution per se they fear but rather the knocking away of that blind obedience to their tenets. Monotheism teaches you to bow down before a higher authority in unquestioning belief, by logical extension it teaches you not to question the authority of those anointed by god to rule on earth-divine right of kings etc etc. Pagans generally elected leaders and followed them if they seemed to be the best at it. Following a leader regardless of whether you think him an idiot because he is god's anointed if you is a whole different ball game. You can see the appeal of such a religion to a ruler, especially of a failing roman empire.

The question I would ask your god squad companion is why does your non-belief or questioning have any effect on HIS faith. His reaction would suggest that his faith is not so strong that he has to attack those who do not share it.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:05 am

gmc;1216670 wrote: It was a feeble attempt at humour. the way you phrased it suggested the author of evolution, steve baxter, might have done research on the scientists rather than the fossils

The fault is mine. I thought you were referring to The Seven Daughters of Eve. I get where you're coming from now.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:12 am

gmc;1216670 wrote: If you could prove god exists then you wouldn't need faith would you? You wouldn't need any of the various religions to interpret for you so perhaps the churches have a vested interest in never having the existence of god proven. So any scientific endeavour that might challenge the literal belief in the writings of the bible is a challenge to their authority. It's not evolution per se they fear but rather the knocking away of that blind obedience to their tenets. Monotheism teaches you to bow down before a higher authority in unquestioning belief, by logical extension it teaches you not to question the authority of those anointed by god to rule on earth-divine right of kings etc etc. Pagans generally elected leaders and followed them if they seemed to be the best at it. Following a leader regardless of whether you think him an idiot because he is god's anointed if you is a whole different ball game. You can see the appeal of such a religion to a ruler, especially of a failing roman empire.

The question I would ask your god squad companion is why does your non-belief or questioning have any effect on HIS faith. His reaction would suggest that his faith is not so strong that he has to attack those who do not share it.

I used to love getting visits from Jehovah's Witnesses. Everything they throw at you from the Bible can be countered by other passages from the Bible. They called round on me one evening and told me they weren't going to continue with our sessions. I expressed my disappointment and haven't seen them since. That was back in the late 80s.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:44 am

OpenMind;1216675 wrote: I used to love getting visits from Jehovah's Witnesses. Everything they throw at you from the Bible can be countered by other passages from the Bible. They called round on me one evening and told me they weren't going to continue with our sessions. I expressed my disappointment and haven't seen them since. That was back in the late 80s.

They (or some of the more extreme religious believers) always assume you don't believe as they do because you haven't read the bible. It freaks them out when it dawns on them your non belief is not born out of ignorance of the word.

YouTube - Pastor Harry Hardwick Clips part 1

YouTube - Pastor Harry Hardwick Clips part 2

YouTube - Pastor Harry Hardwick Clips part 3

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:15 am

gmc;1216794 wrote: They (or some of the more extreme religious believers) always assume you don't believe as they do because you haven't read the bible. It freaks them out when it dawns on them your non belief is not born out of ignorance of the word.

YouTube - Pastor Harry Hardwick Clips part 1

YouTube - Pastor Harry Hardwick Clips part 2

YouTube - Pastor Harry Hardwick Clips part 3

I'll be glad when I get my sound system set up again.:rolleyes:

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:48 am

OpenMind;1216803 wrote: I'll be glad when I get my sound system set up again.:rolleyes:

couldn't find the semaphore version but never mind maybe this will cheer you up

YouTube - Monty Python - The Semaphore Version of Wuthering Heights

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:21 pm

gmc;1216807 wrote: couldn't find the semaphore version but never mind maybe this will cheer you up

YouTube - Monty Python - The Semaphore Version of Wuthering Heights

My god! I remember that sketch.

Wah! Wah!

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:38 pm

OpenMind;1216814 wrote: My god! I remember that sketch.

Wah! Wah!

In that case you will be able to sing along to this even without the sound.

YouTube - Always Look On The Bright Side of Life

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:26 pm

gmc;1216818 wrote: In that case you will be able to sing along to this even without the sound.

YouTube - Always Look On The Bright Side of Life

I don't even have to open this sketch.

The Life of Brian. A highly amusing film and a good closing scene.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:51 am

OpenMind;1216833 wrote: I don't even have to open this sketch.

The Life of Brian. A highly amusing film and a good closing scene.

When a muslim can make a similar film about the life of Mohammed without being killed the world will be a safer place.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:16 am

gmc;1216988 wrote: When a muslim can make a similar film about the life of Mohammed without being killed the world will be a safer place.

Christianity also has been used as a vehicle for inflicting utter misery on people. In fact, I can't think of a religion that hasn't been used in this way at some point in its history by someone or other. It is not the religion that is at fault, in my opinion. It is how it is interpreted by individuals, especially those in a position of authority.

I see in the news this morning that Al-Qaeda have threatened to avenge the Muslim deaths in China.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:20 am

OpenMind;1216991 wrote: Christianity also has been used as a vehicle for inflicting utter misery on people. In fact, I can't think of a religion that hasn't been used in this way at some point in its history by someone or other. It is not the religion that is at fault, in my opinion. It is how it is interpreted by individuals, especially those in a position of authority.

I see in the news this morning that Al-Qaeda have threatened to avenge the Muslim deaths in China.

Buddhism? Buddhists have fought wars obviously but have there been any holy wars in it's name? Hinduism? what wars have been fought to impose it on others. European Pagans might have been warlike and called on the gods to help but what wars were fought to force others to convert?

It is not the religion that is at fault, in my opinion. It is how it is interpreted by individuals, especially those in a position of authority.

Perhaps, but I would suggest monotheism lends itself to being used that way, especially one that teaches you to fear and not question the "word". The civilising influence of religion has been greatly exaggerated.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:34 am

gmc;1217034 wrote: Buddhism? Buddhists have fought wars obviously but have there been any holy wars in it's name? Hinduism? what wars have been fought to impose it on others. European Pagans might have been warlike and called on the gods to help but what wars were fought to force others to convert?

Perhaps, but I would suggest monotheism lends itself to being used that way, especially one that teaches you to fear and not question the "word". The civilising influence of religion has been greatly exaggerated.

I haven't the time to research this sufficiently to answer all the points in your post but I certainly didn't mention wars which aren't what I was inferring by my statement. In India, the caste system is imposed by the rich castes and given authority by means of Hinduism. Not all but the majority of pagans practised human sacrifice. Though I couldn't qualify my statement without providing proof that misery was experienced as a result of these things. Buddhism I can't touch. If there's any misery involved, it's self-imposed which, again, I am not referring to. Neither did I suggest that the religion itself was the reason for the misery but that individuals interpreted its doctrine in ways such that they inflicted misery on others.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:01 pm

OpenMind;1217111 wrote: I haven't the time to research this sufficiently to answer all the points in your post but I certainly didn't mention wars which aren't what I was inferring by my statement. In India, the caste system is imposed by the rich castes and given authority by means of Hinduism. Not all but the majority of pagans practised human sacrifice. Though I couldn't qualify my statement without providing proof that misery was experienced as a result of these things. Buddhism I can't touch. If there's any misery involved, it's self-imposed which, again, I am not referring to. Neither did I suggest that the religion itself was the reason for the misery but that individuals interpreted its doctrine in ways such that they inflicted misery on others.

neither do I actually-it was a throwaway comment and perhaps not germane to the issue of the thread.

Perhaps the question is not whether religion itself is a problem but becomes so when we take it to seriously and start giving it and it's followers too much respect.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:09 pm

gmc;1217133 wrote: neither do I actually-it was a throwaway comment and perhaps not germane to the issue of the thread.

Perhaps the question is not whether religion itself is a problem but becomes so when we take it to seriously and start giving it and it's followers too much respect.

That last is an interesting point in itself given that throughout history people have displayed a need for a leader of one sort or another. Someone to tell them what to do, guide them and direct their lives.

Hence, I presume, the reason why there hasn't been an uprising against the present ruling elite. Amongst other reasons that is. such as not rocking the corrupt boat we sail in.

I shouldn't laugh. It's tragic.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:51 am

OpenMind;1217145 wrote: That last is an interesting point in itself given that throughout history people have displayed a need for a leader of one sort or another. Someone to tell them what to do, guide them and direct their lives.

Hence, I presume, the reason why there hasn't been an uprising against the present ruling elite. Amongst other reasons that is. such as not rocking the corrupt boat we sail in.

I shouldn't laugh. It's tragic.

Perhaps it's a result of our having evolved from arboreal groups of apes where the alpha male is only challenged at great personal risk and people feel the need to unite as a group against rival clans. Religion is a great tool to prevent what would be the normal inclination to depose a failing or incompetent leader by convincing the other apes regicide is a sin against god. Most people just want to live their daily lives in peace and it takes a great deal to want to change the status quo. But change it always does-it's kind of a very slow burn that got damped down a bit when new labour got in but they have just banked up the fires. Our politicians are divorced from the greater pack they just don't know it yet.

I think it's inherent in our natures that we will challenge and change the ruling elites but we are not just primitive apes any more living in family groups.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:38 pm

gmc;1217314 wrote: Perhaps it's a result of our having involved from arboreal groups of apes where the alpha male is only challenges at great personal risk and people feel the need to unite as a grou against rival clans. Religion is a great tool to prevent what would be the normal inclination to depose a failing or incompetent leader by convincing the other apes regicide is a sin against god. Most people just want to live their daily lives in peace and it takes a great deal to want to change the status quo. But change it always does-it's kind of a very slow burn that got damped down a bit when new labour got in but they have just banked up the fires. Our politicians are divorced from the greater pack they just don't know it yet.

I think it's inherent in our natures that we will challenge and change the ruling elites but we are not just primitive apes any more living in family groups.

Yes, I agree with you generally speaking. I would also add that the UK citizens have been further fragmented by the rehousing policies in the latter half of the last century. This had the effect of separating families.

Perhaps the way forward now is in the hands of the immigrants who have, because of racism, kept together and retained their family groups in close proximity to one another.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:53 am

Clearly weve got a ways to go yet.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:18 am

Bit hard on chimps to suggest they're descended from Bush?

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:41 am

Clodhopper;1235606 wrote: Bit hard on chimps to suggest they're descended from Bush?

I thought they descended from Prince Charles.:yh_rotfl

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:53 am

Nope. He just borrowed the ears.

Talks a lot of sense these days:

BBC NEWS | UK | Prince fears Earth 'catastrophe'

Recommend listening to the whole thing if you can. Being the Heir, he has to avoid saying anything that could be seen as party political. But it's a stark warning.

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:55 am

hoppy;1235614 wrote: I thought they descended from Prince Charles.:yh_rotfl

No that particular branch of evolution is sponges