Faith and Knowledge

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 10:12 am

I believe that Faith is needed for knowledge.

Some people have more faith than others, but everyone has some amount of faith. This would include atheists.

A quote by J. Budzizewski:

"Reasoning itself depends on faith. Can you see why? Imagine that someone says to you, "All reasoning is baloney." He's wrong, of course, but can you prove it? Guess what? You can't. The only way to show that reasoning isn't baloney would be to reason about it. But in that case your argument would be circular - and one of the rules of good reasoning is that circular arguments don't prove anything! So how do we know that reasoning isn't baloney? We take it on trust. And trust is another word for faith."

Comments?

telaquapacky · Post by **telaquapacky** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:16 pm

If faith is needed for knowledge, one could have faith without knowledge, but could not have knowledge without faith.

A friend of mine who today is deeply spiritual, in fact has entered the ministry, explained to me a period of many years when he had a serious disappointment and falling out with God. He said, "I had the kind of faith that recognises that God exists, and that He loves us, but I did not have the kind of faith that would carry me through disappointment, when life did not give me what I wanted."

As I recall my friend during that period, he had a lot of knowledge, but not really much faith. Are you sure faith is required for knowledge, or could it be the other way around?

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:10 am

Tombstone says that some people have more faith than others, but everyone has some amount of faith.

I would request him to inform how faith is quantified and how it is to be measured to saythis person has more faith than that person.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:23 am

telaquapacky wrote: If faith is needed for knowledge, one could have faith without knowledge, but could not have knowledge without faith.

A friend of mine who today is deeply spiritual, in fact has entered the ministry, explained to me a period of many years when he had a serious disappointment and falling out with God. He said, "I had the kind of faith that recognises that God exists, and that He loves us, but I did not have the kind of faith that would carry me through disappointment, when life did not give me what I wanted."

As I recall my friend during that period, he had a lot of knowledge, but not really much faith. Are you sure faith is required for knowledge, or could it be the other way around?

A very interesting message. I will agree that if faith is needed for knowledge, one could have faith without knowledge, but could not have knowledge without faith, only when this knowledge is only bookish knowledge.

Falling out with God is the most interesting part of the message. How does one know that he has fallen out with God? As long as one is getting everything in life he feels that God loves him, and the moment he does not get what he wants he declares that God is not with him. This is no faith.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:37 pm

Wisdom must proceed from the knowledge gained through faith. Knowledge without wisdom is wasted.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:07 pm

Clint wrote: Wisdom must proceed from the knowledge gained through faith. Knowledge without wisdom is wasted.

I am in full agreement with you.

telaquapacky · Post by **telaquapacky** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 6:00 pm

Suresh Gupta wrote: As long as one is getting everything in life he feels that God loves him, and the moment he does not get what he wants he declares that God is not with him. This is no faith.

You're exactly right, Suresh. And this is exactly the kind of relationship with God that many of us have. A lot of people at some point had a happy friendship with God, but they were fair-weather friends to Him. Hopefully, by His grace, we grow out of that.

I don't wish to be too critical (or hypocritical!). It's important that we have realistic expectations of life, and don't use God as a genie in a magic lamp. I have gone through times when I treated God as if He were an ATM machine, and when I inserted my card and entered my PIN (prayer and worship and good deeds, etc.) if I did not get the desired result, I became discouraged. I masked this with guilt for real and imagined wrongdoing, but in reality, I was only smoke-screening from myself my own deep down, fair weather relationship with Him.

Going through these things and facing the truth has helped me understand and know God better. It is a circle. My faith is based on knowledge, and my knowledge is based on faith.

Suresh Gupta · Post by **Suresh Gupta** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:30 am

[QUOTE=telaquapacky]..... A lot of people at some point had a happy friendship with God, but they were fair-weather friends to Him.......I have gone through times when I treated God as if He were an ATM machine, and when I inserted my card and entered my PIN (prayer and worship and good deeds, etc.) if I did not get the desired result, I became discouraged. I masked this with guilt for real and imagined wrongdoing, but in reality, I was only smoke-screening from myself my own deep down, fair weather relationship with Him. Going through these things and facing the truth has helped me understand and know God better. It is a circle. My faith is based on knowledge, and my knowledge is based on faith.[QUOTE]

A very interesting post, especially the example of ATM. As a Hindu I believe that I have a right over my work (Karma) but I do not have any right over the result of my Karma. The result of my Karma shall be decided by the God. I should leave it to Him and be happy for whatever His decision is. You are perfectly right that this faith is based on the knowledge (Gyan) and this Gyan comes from the faith one has in Him.