I think that even the nonreligious will admit that churches do more good then harm.
I think it would be a burden on Churches if they were taxed. 200 years and we have not taxed them why start now?
Taxation of Church Properties
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LottomagicZ4941
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LottomagicZ4941
- Posts: 752
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Taxation of Church Properties
Missed your URL at first. Intresting:) Do you know if his figures/estimates are correct? Wonder if someone could gage a $$$$ value on what Chruches provide to our society to see if it is cost effective?
Perhpas if Chruches were taxed people could just go to a Chruch home if the church could not afford the tax.
"President Grant calls for a constitutional amendment
For reasons that were basically political, President Grants calls for a constitutional amendment in his Seventh Annual Message to Congress in December 1875.
Researched and edited by Jim Allison
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Enter main body of text here
(Excerpts of relevant portions of that Annual Message follows)
SEVENTH ANNUAL MESSAGE
Executive Mansion, December 7, 1875
"From the fall of Adam for his transgressions to the present day no nation has ever been free from threatened danger to its prosperity and happiness. We should look to the dangers threatening us, and remedy them so far as lies in our power.
We are a republic whereof one man is as good as another before the law. Under such a form of government it is of the greatest importance that all should be possessed of education of intelligence enough to cast a vote with a right understanding of its meaning.
A large Association of ignorant men can not for any considerable period oppose a successful resistance to tyranny and oppression from the educated few, but will inevitably sink into acquiescence to the will of intelligence, whether directed by the demagogue or priestcraft. Hence the education of the masses becomes of the first necessity for the preservation of our institutions.
They are worth preserving, because they have secured the greatest good to the greatest proportion of the population of any form of government yet devised. All other forms of government approach it just in proportion to the general diffusion of education and independence of thought and action.
As a primary step, therefore, to our advancement in all that has marked our progress in the past century, I suggest your earnest consideration, and most earnestly recommended it, that a constitutional amendment be submitted to legislatures of the several states for ratification, making it the duty of each of the several states to establish and forever maintain free public schools adequate to the education of all of children in the rudimentary branches within their respective limits, irrespective of sex, color, birth place, or religions; forbidding the teaching in said schools of religious, atheistic, or pagan tenets; and prohibiting the granting of any school funds or school taxes, or any part thereof, either by legislative, municipal, or other authority, for the benefit or in aid, directly or indirectly, of any religious sect or denomination, or in aid or for the benefit of any other object of any nature of the kind whatever.
In connection with this in a very question I would also call your attention to the importance of correcting an evil that, if permitted to continue, will probably lead to a great trouble in our land before the close of the nineteenth century. It is the accumulation of vast amounts of untaxed church property.
In 1850, I believe, the church property of the United States which paid no tax, municipal or State, amounted to about $83,000,000. In 1860 the amount had doubled; in 1875 it is about $1,000,000,000. By 1900 without check, it is safe to say this property will reach a sum exceeding $3,000,000,000.. So vast a sum receiving all the protection and benefits of Government without bearing its proportion of the burdens and expenses of the same, or not be looked upon acquiescently by those who have to pay the taxes. In a growing country, where real estate enhances so rapidly with time, as in the United States, there is scarcely a limit to the wealth that may be acquired by corporations, religious or otherwise, if allowed to retain real estate without taxation. The contemplation of so vast a property as here alluded to, without taxation, may lead to sequestration without constitutional authority and through blood.
I would suggest a taxation all property equally, whether church or corporation, exempting only the last resting place of the dead and possibly, with proper restrictions, church edifices."
"The report of the Commissioner of Education, which accompanies to report of the Secretary of the interior, shows a gratifying progress in educational matters."
"In nearly every annual message I have had the honor of transmitting to Congress I have called attention to the anomalous, not to say scandalous, condition of affairs existing the territory of Utah, and have asked for definite legislation to correct it. That polygamy should exist in a free enlightened, and Christian country, without the power to punish the flagrant crime against decency and morality, seems preposterous. True, there is no law to sustain this unnatural vice, but what is needed is a law to punish it as a crime, and at the same time fix the status of the innocent children, the offspring of this system, and of the possibly innocent plural wives. But as an institution polygamy should be banished from the land."
"As this will be the last annual message which I shall have the honor of transmitting to Congress before my successor is chosen, I will repeat or recapitulate the questions which I deem of vital importance which may be legislated upon and settled at this session:
First. That the States shall be required to afford the opportunity of a good common-school education to every child within their limits.
Second. No sectarian tenets shall ever be taught in any school supported in whole or in part by the State, nation, or by the proceeds on any tax levied upon any community. Make education compulsory so far as to deprive all persons who can not read and write from becoming voters after the year 1890, disfranchising none, however, on grounds of illiteracy who may be voters at the time this amendment takes effect.
Third. Declare church and state forever separate and distinct, but each free within their proper spheres; and that all church property shall bear its own proportion of taxation.
Fourth. Drive out licensed immorality, such as polygamy and the importation of women for illegitimate purposes. To recur again to the centennial year, it would seem as though now, as we are about to begin the second century of our national existence, would be the most fitting time for these reforms.
Source of Information
Excerpts from President U. S. Grant's Seventh Annual Message to Congress, December 7, 1875. A Compilation of the Messages and Papers of the Presidents Vol. IX. Bureau of National Literature, pp 4288-89, 4309, 4310 "
Perhpas if Chruches were taxed people could just go to a Chruch home if the church could not afford the tax.
"President Grant calls for a constitutional amendment
For reasons that were basically political, President Grants calls for a constitutional amendment in his Seventh Annual Message to Congress in December 1875.
Researched and edited by Jim Allison
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Enter main body of text here
(Excerpts of relevant portions of that Annual Message follows)
SEVENTH ANNUAL MESSAGE
Executive Mansion, December 7, 1875
"From the fall of Adam for his transgressions to the present day no nation has ever been free from threatened danger to its prosperity and happiness. We should look to the dangers threatening us, and remedy them so far as lies in our power.
We are a republic whereof one man is as good as another before the law. Under such a form of government it is of the greatest importance that all should be possessed of education of intelligence enough to cast a vote with a right understanding of its meaning.
A large Association of ignorant men can not for any considerable period oppose a successful resistance to tyranny and oppression from the educated few, but will inevitably sink into acquiescence to the will of intelligence, whether directed by the demagogue or priestcraft. Hence the education of the masses becomes of the first necessity for the preservation of our institutions.
They are worth preserving, because they have secured the greatest good to the greatest proportion of the population of any form of government yet devised. All other forms of government approach it just in proportion to the general diffusion of education and independence of thought and action.
As a primary step, therefore, to our advancement in all that has marked our progress in the past century, I suggest your earnest consideration, and most earnestly recommended it, that a constitutional amendment be submitted to legislatures of the several states for ratification, making it the duty of each of the several states to establish and forever maintain free public schools adequate to the education of all of children in the rudimentary branches within their respective limits, irrespective of sex, color, birth place, or religions; forbidding the teaching in said schools of religious, atheistic, or pagan tenets; and prohibiting the granting of any school funds or school taxes, or any part thereof, either by legislative, municipal, or other authority, for the benefit or in aid, directly or indirectly, of any religious sect or denomination, or in aid or for the benefit of any other object of any nature of the kind whatever.
In connection with this in a very question I would also call your attention to the importance of correcting an evil that, if permitted to continue, will probably lead to a great trouble in our land before the close of the nineteenth century. It is the accumulation of vast amounts of untaxed church property.
In 1850, I believe, the church property of the United States which paid no tax, municipal or State, amounted to about $83,000,000. In 1860 the amount had doubled; in 1875 it is about $1,000,000,000. By 1900 without check, it is safe to say this property will reach a sum exceeding $3,000,000,000.. So vast a sum receiving all the protection and benefits of Government without bearing its proportion of the burdens and expenses of the same, or not be looked upon acquiescently by those who have to pay the taxes. In a growing country, where real estate enhances so rapidly with time, as in the United States, there is scarcely a limit to the wealth that may be acquired by corporations, religious or otherwise, if allowed to retain real estate without taxation. The contemplation of so vast a property as here alluded to, without taxation, may lead to sequestration without constitutional authority and through blood.
I would suggest a taxation all property equally, whether church or corporation, exempting only the last resting place of the dead and possibly, with proper restrictions, church edifices."
"The report of the Commissioner of Education, which accompanies to report of the Secretary of the interior, shows a gratifying progress in educational matters."
"In nearly every annual message I have had the honor of transmitting to Congress I have called attention to the anomalous, not to say scandalous, condition of affairs existing the territory of Utah, and have asked for definite legislation to correct it. That polygamy should exist in a free enlightened, and Christian country, without the power to punish the flagrant crime against decency and morality, seems preposterous. True, there is no law to sustain this unnatural vice, but what is needed is a law to punish it as a crime, and at the same time fix the status of the innocent children, the offspring of this system, and of the possibly innocent plural wives. But as an institution polygamy should be banished from the land."
"As this will be the last annual message which I shall have the honor of transmitting to Congress before my successor is chosen, I will repeat or recapitulate the questions which I deem of vital importance which may be legislated upon and settled at this session:
First. That the States shall be required to afford the opportunity of a good common-school education to every child within their limits.
Second. No sectarian tenets shall ever be taught in any school supported in whole or in part by the State, nation, or by the proceeds on any tax levied upon any community. Make education compulsory so far as to deprive all persons who can not read and write from becoming voters after the year 1890, disfranchising none, however, on grounds of illiteracy who may be voters at the time this amendment takes effect.
Third. Declare church and state forever separate and distinct, but each free within their proper spheres; and that all church property shall bear its own proportion of taxation.
Fourth. Drive out licensed immorality, such as polygamy and the importation of women for illegitimate purposes. To recur again to the centennial year, it would seem as though now, as we are about to begin the second century of our national existence, would be the most fitting time for these reforms.
Source of Information
Excerpts from President U. S. Grant's Seventh Annual Message to Congress, December 7, 1875. A Compilation of the Messages and Papers of the Presidents Vol. IX. Bureau of National Literature, pp 4288-89, 4309, 4310 "
Taxation of Church Properties
Very interesting topic.
My parents stopped attending church, although did not stop being Christian, because the church insisted that my father "donate" an exact percentage of his income. If they want to get into taxation of their followers why should they not pay taxation themselves?
It is a great way to contribute to the improvement of people's lives and welfare. Which, I would think, would be something within their mandate. Of course this applies to all religions. I think, if they are a part of a society they should contribute to it.
My parents stopped attending church, although did not stop being Christian, because the church insisted that my father "donate" an exact percentage of his income. If they want to get into taxation of their followers why should they not pay taxation themselves?
It is a great way to contribute to the improvement of people's lives and welfare. Which, I would think, would be something within their mandate. Of course this applies to all religions. I think, if they are a part of a society they should contribute to it.
Taxation of Church Properties
I would suggest a little more research on the part of some.
All church income must be reported. It cannot be hidden nor should it be. The churches are allowed to keep a certain portion of the income for the general running of the building and the salaries of those it hires. 80% of the churches income must be disbursed to charitable works of one form or another.
The great myth that the Church is somehow a wealthy institution is just that, a myth.
If the church had to pay taxes on its property etc. you would see an end to most of its charitable works: overseas support for persons and societies needing financial suppport for thinks like new water systems, new sanitation systems, food for the starving, aid in times of disaster such as floods and other natural disasters. More close to home: support of the needy by food, medicine, physical support when needed, comfort at a time of loss, support of food banks, support of recycling organizations, visiting and caring for the sick, clothing those who are "naked", supplying transportation to those shuts ins for such things as medical treatments, shopping, supplying in some cases medical assistance, our constant working towards recompense for the ills caused by church in the passed such as first Nations,.
I could go on at much greater length but would suggest that research instead of ignorance of what the church does would be in order.
Wealthy? We do wish we had more money so that we could do more then we do. .We do what we can with the money we have.
What is always interesting to me is how those folks who have no use for or bother with the church all of a sudden want it there when they have a need such as a marriage or a death in the family. They don't want to support it but would be damned angry if it was not there to help them in their hour of need.
And yet the church turns no one away when they have a need. It is there for them even when they refuse to support it. That is the Gospel of the Risen Lord.
Shalom
Ted :-6
All church income must be reported. It cannot be hidden nor should it be. The churches are allowed to keep a certain portion of the income for the general running of the building and the salaries of those it hires. 80% of the churches income must be disbursed to charitable works of one form or another.
The great myth that the Church is somehow a wealthy institution is just that, a myth.
If the church had to pay taxes on its property etc. you would see an end to most of its charitable works: overseas support for persons and societies needing financial suppport for thinks like new water systems, new sanitation systems, food for the starving, aid in times of disaster such as floods and other natural disasters. More close to home: support of the needy by food, medicine, physical support when needed, comfort at a time of loss, support of food banks, support of recycling organizations, visiting and caring for the sick, clothing those who are "naked", supplying transportation to those shuts ins for such things as medical treatments, shopping, supplying in some cases medical assistance, our constant working towards recompense for the ills caused by church in the passed such as first Nations,.
I could go on at much greater length but would suggest that research instead of ignorance of what the church does would be in order.
Wealthy? We do wish we had more money so that we could do more then we do. .We do what we can with the money we have.
What is always interesting to me is how those folks who have no use for or bother with the church all of a sudden want it there when they have a need such as a marriage or a death in the family. They don't want to support it but would be damned angry if it was not there to help them in their hour of need.
And yet the church turns no one away when they have a need. It is there for them even when they refuse to support it. That is the Gospel of the Risen Lord.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Taxation of Church Properties
All church income must be reported. It cannot be hidden nor should it be. The churches are allowed to keep a certain portion of the income for the general running of the building and the salaries of those it hires. 80% of the churches income must be disbursed to charitable works of one form or another.
I think that may be something many, including myself did not know. I now think that the money is being put to much better use than the government could do with it. I still don't get why they concern themselves with collecting percentages of income, but that may have just been the one church.
It is still a valid question but your input can make it an informed vote now. I just looked at hundreds of pictures of churches from my friend's trip to Europe and it is very easy to believe the church is filthy rich. I can't believe that the Catholic church is not wealthy...but my vote is now more reserved as it would affect all churches.
I think that may be something many, including myself did not know. I now think that the money is being put to much better use than the government could do with it. I still don't get why they concern themselves with collecting percentages of income, but that may have just been the one church.
It is still a valid question but your input can make it an informed vote now. I just looked at hundreds of pictures of churches from my friend's trip to Europe and it is very easy to believe the church is filthy rich. I can't believe that the Catholic church is not wealthy...but my vote is now more reserved as it would affect all churches.
Taxation of Church Properties
The suggestion of the "tithe" (10%) is a biblical requirement but is not , of course, enforced. We take it as a suggestion.
Yes you do see the magnificent cathedrals of Europe and some even in North America. Generally a church is built in a location chosen by the people. Its style is also at the request of the people. In the past the attitude was why should we not have the most beautiful pieces of "art" to use in our worship of God. It was a reflection of the attitude and value they placed in their worship.
There is no doubt the the Roman Catholic church has many expensive and artistic pieces. These have been collected over the centuries (almost 2000 yrs). Most were donations by the worshippers in the particular congregation.
No the RC church is not filthy rich. Much of what it has were bequests and donations which must be honored. The RC church indeed, has the same problems in financial considerations as most other churches. In fact many of the churches neede major renovations to improve their longevity and their safety. When they start to do one it usually ends up costing more then was first anticipated, sometimes by as much as 10X
Are we really willing to destroy the great heritages of our past. After all our present is based on the past.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Yes you do see the magnificent cathedrals of Europe and some even in North America. Generally a church is built in a location chosen by the people. Its style is also at the request of the people. In the past the attitude was why should we not have the most beautiful pieces of "art" to use in our worship of God. It was a reflection of the attitude and value they placed in their worship.
There is no doubt the the Roman Catholic church has many expensive and artistic pieces. These have been collected over the centuries (almost 2000 yrs). Most were donations by the worshippers in the particular congregation.
No the RC church is not filthy rich. Much of what it has were bequests and donations which must be honored. The RC church indeed, has the same problems in financial considerations as most other churches. In fact many of the churches neede major renovations to improve their longevity and their safety. When they start to do one it usually ends up costing more then was first anticipated, sometimes by as much as 10X
Are we really willing to destroy the great heritages of our past. After all our present is based on the past.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Taxation of Church Properties
I wonder if it is worth destroying or potentially destroying all of the good work of the church for the few taxes it would send to the municipal coffers.
I guess then the municipalities would have to pitch in with their tax money to fill in where the churches could no longer. That would cost even more. The church is cost effective when it comes to getting things done because the people have a direct say in what happens with their money.
At the point the domination system would become even more powerful.
Shalom
Ted :-6
I guess then the municipalities would have to pitch in with their tax money to fill in where the churches could no longer. That would cost even more. The church is cost effective when it comes to getting things done because the people have a direct say in what happens with their money.
At the point the domination system would become even more powerful.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Taxation of Church Properties
I would agree that both religious and non religious institutions that make charitable contributions to our society should be exempt from taxes. If these can no longer do their work then the taxpayers as a whole will have to fill in the gap and it will not be nearly as efficient as it is now.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Shalom
Ted :-6
Taxation of Church Properties
This is a very interesting thread to me. I have a totally different take on the subject. I think the “church†has given up much of its freedom in order to be tax exempt. If congregations paid their taxes they wouldn’t be accountable to the government for anything other than the money demanded of them.
I believe that if congregations willing paid taxes, the blessing returned to them would by far outweigh what they paid.
It is wrong for a congregation to consider its positions and include in its deliberations, whether or not the decision will allow them to remain tax exempt
I believe that if congregations willing paid taxes, the blessing returned to them would by far outweigh what they paid.
It is wrong for a congregation to consider its positions and include in its deliberations, whether or not the decision will allow them to remain tax exempt
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.