All of this talk about “The Churchâ€Â
All of this talk about “The Churchâ€Â
It seems to me that if there is going to be all this talk about “the Church†we should know what we are talking about. Isn’t it actually the case that those who are harping about the church are actually focused on Catholics and Protestants in the U.S.? Are Jews considered “The Church� What about Muslims, Buddhists, Messianic Judaism, Hinduism and others? Mormons refer to themselves as “The Church†exclusively. Hasn’t this “Church†brush become too wide to wield?
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
All of this talk about “The Churchâ€Â
Clint wrote: It seems to me that if there is going to be all this talk about “the Church†we should know what we are talking about. Isn’t it actually the case that those who are harping about the church are actually focused on Catholics and Protestants in the U.S.? Are Jews considered “The Church� What about Muslims, Buddhists, Messianic Judaism, Hinduism and others? Mormons refer to themselves as “The Church†exclusively. Hasn’t this “Church†brush become too wide to wield?
I would agree with this. The wide brush is "Christianity". Namely, Protestants and Catholics. Then, these two groups are lumped together and then proclaimed to be radical fundamentalist Christians.
I would agree with this. The wide brush is "Christianity". Namely, Protestants and Catholics. Then, these two groups are lumped together and then proclaimed to be radical fundamentalist Christians.
All of this talk about “The Churchâ€Â
Clint :-6
The church is considered to be the body of the people of God. That is all the people who worship God in one way or another. The "church" was established by the apostles under the direction of Jesus of Nazareth.
It is true that there are some "churches" who consider themselves the "true" church and the rest are not. God will ultimately be that judge, if one so believes.
The other great faiths in the world have their own names for their congregations and their houses of worship: Jews-synagogue, Muslims-mosque etc.
Shalom
Ted :-6
The church is considered to be the body of the people of God. That is all the people who worship God in one way or another. The "church" was established by the apostles under the direction of Jesus of Nazareth.
It is true that there are some "churches" who consider themselves the "true" church and the rest are not. God will ultimately be that judge, if one so believes.
The other great faiths in the world have their own names for their congregations and their houses of worship: Jews-synagogue, Muslims-mosque etc.
Shalom
Ted :-6
All of this talk about “The Churchâ€Â
Ted wrote: Clint :-6
The church is considered to be the body of the people of God. That is all the people who worship God in one way or another. The "church" was established by the apostles under the direction of Jesus of Nazareth.
It is true that there are some "churches" who consider themselves the "true" church and the rest are not. God will ultimately be that judge, if one so believes.
The other great faiths in the world have their own names for their congregations and their houses of worship: Jews-synagogue, Muslims-mosque etc.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Ted:
I think that rather than saying “the church†people need to be probed about what they really mean. If the Church is those who follow Yeshua, then are those the only ones that need to be separated from government?
“Ekklesia†is the Greek word used to record what Yeshua said and it means assembly or congregation. The same terms would have been used for those who assembled at the beckoning of Moshe. “Atsereth†referring to a holy convocation in Hebrew has a near identical meaning. The word “church†simply means an assembly or a congregation.
I am wondering which assembly or congregation those singling out the “church†are referring to. Shouldn’t they be more specific?
Shalom aleikhem
Clint
The church is considered to be the body of the people of God. That is all the people who worship God in one way or another. The "church" was established by the apostles under the direction of Jesus of Nazareth.
It is true that there are some "churches" who consider themselves the "true" church and the rest are not. God will ultimately be that judge, if one so believes.
The other great faiths in the world have their own names for their congregations and their houses of worship: Jews-synagogue, Muslims-mosque etc.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Ted:
I think that rather than saying “the church†people need to be probed about what they really mean. If the Church is those who follow Yeshua, then are those the only ones that need to be separated from government?
“Ekklesia†is the Greek word used to record what Yeshua said and it means assembly or congregation. The same terms would have been used for those who assembled at the beckoning of Moshe. “Atsereth†referring to a holy convocation in Hebrew has a near identical meaning. The word “church†simply means an assembly or a congregation.
I am wondering which assembly or congregation those singling out the “church†are referring to. Shouldn’t they be more specific?
Shalom aleikhem
Clint
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
All of this talk about “The Churchâ€Â
Cllint :-6
Our view in the Angican Communion is that the church consists of all those who worship God. It is the whole of the congregations not just one. The building in which we worship is referred to as the church but not in the same sense, but in the sense of the house of worship or the house of the Lord.
We recognize all batptized Christians as members of the Church at large or if you wil the corporate church.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Our view in the Angican Communion is that the church consists of all those who worship God. It is the whole of the congregations not just one. The building in which we worship is referred to as the church but not in the same sense, but in the sense of the house of worship or the house of the Lord.
We recognize all batptized Christians as members of the Church at large or if you wil the corporate church.
Shalom
Ted :-6
All of this talk about “The Churchâ€Â
Ted wrote: Cllint :-6
We recognize all batptized Christians as members of the Church at large or if you wil the corporate church.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Is it possible to be a part of Yeshua's congregation and not be baptized in or with water?
Shalom aleikhem
Clint
We recognize all batptized Christians as members of the Church at large or if you wil the corporate church.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Is it possible to be a part of Yeshua's congregation and not be baptized in or with water?
Shalom aleikhem
Clint
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
All of this talk about “The Churchâ€Â
The thief on the cross simply believed in Jesus as his Saviour and was promised eternal life by Jesus (Luke 23:40-43) He was never baptized and still went to Heaven. Therefore, one can assume, baptism is not a requirement to enter Heaven.
Does one have to attend Church?
Judas Iscariot, one of Jesus' twelve disciples, attended church with the Saviour himself on a daily basis for at least three years. However, Judas committed suicide and went to hell. Attending church with Christ Himself did not get Judas to Heaven.
Does one have to keep all of the 10 Commandments?
The Bible tells a story of a Pharisee who was thanking God in the temple one day because he had kept all of God's commandments (Luke 18:9-14). There was a publican in the temple at the same time just asking God for mercy. God did not justify the Pharisee because he was proud of his own accomplishment. However, God justified the publican because he was remorseful to God over his mistakes. Keeping the Ten Commandments will not allow us to enter Heaven either.
Must one perform good works?
There was a rich man in the Bible who fed the poor beggar at his gates. Both died, the rich man went to Hell and the beggar went to Heaven (Luke 16:19-31) Good works did not give the rich man entrance to Heaven.
Must one go to confession?
The Bible tells us to only confess our sins to God and not to a man (IJohn 1:9)
Must one be a good and moral person?
Jesus said that He had come for the sick and not for those who considered themselves to be good (Matt. 9:10-13). Although there may be some good in ourselves, it is not good enough for God. Psalm 35:9 says that man in his best estate is but vanity. Our own morality and goodness won't give us access to Heaven.
What's left?
I guess you just have to believe.
Does one have to attend Church?
Judas Iscariot, one of Jesus' twelve disciples, attended church with the Saviour himself on a daily basis for at least three years. However, Judas committed suicide and went to hell. Attending church with Christ Himself did not get Judas to Heaven.
Does one have to keep all of the 10 Commandments?
The Bible tells a story of a Pharisee who was thanking God in the temple one day because he had kept all of God's commandments (Luke 18:9-14). There was a publican in the temple at the same time just asking God for mercy. God did not justify the Pharisee because he was proud of his own accomplishment. However, God justified the publican because he was remorseful to God over his mistakes. Keeping the Ten Commandments will not allow us to enter Heaven either.
Must one perform good works?
There was a rich man in the Bible who fed the poor beggar at his gates. Both died, the rich man went to Hell and the beggar went to Heaven (Luke 16:19-31) Good works did not give the rich man entrance to Heaven.
Must one go to confession?
The Bible tells us to only confess our sins to God and not to a man (IJohn 1:9)
Must one be a good and moral person?
Jesus said that He had come for the sick and not for those who considered themselves to be good (Matt. 9:10-13). Although there may be some good in ourselves, it is not good enough for God. Psalm 35:9 says that man in his best estate is but vanity. Our own morality and goodness won't give us access to Heaven.
What's left?
I guess you just have to believe.
All of this talk about “The Churchâ€Â
Do you mean one can believe and still not want to do any of those things?
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
All of this talk about “The Churchâ€Â
I didn't write the book so I can only guess at what it means.
I think the humble attitude is what is being called for. If someone slips and doesn't do all those things it is because they are human. If someone wants to be dogmatic and righteous and judge the perfection of the people who do not comply with a bunch of rules they are less likely to be in favour with God than the sinner who at the last minute realises the error of their ways.
Just woke up so I'm not looking up the verse but remember the parable of workers being hired for a penny a day to work in the field. Some worked all day, some only started working in the last hour. They all got a penny for their labour.
Not to say that people should knowingly wait til the last minute to be repentant for wrongs they may have done. It is just to say both the good and the evil may still get into heaven on the same day. Unlike his portrait in the OT, God is much more forgiving than we are.
If you MUST accept Jesus as your Saviour in order to be saved, what about the billions of beings that die as fetusis, infants, and mentally deficient, etc.? For them to accept Jesus would be impossible. So are they condemned to hell because of the conditions over which they had no control? If God made them incapable of worship before their death how can God punish them for it?
I think the humble attitude is what is being called for. If someone slips and doesn't do all those things it is because they are human. If someone wants to be dogmatic and righteous and judge the perfection of the people who do not comply with a bunch of rules they are less likely to be in favour with God than the sinner who at the last minute realises the error of their ways.
Just woke up so I'm not looking up the verse but remember the parable of workers being hired for a penny a day to work in the field. Some worked all day, some only started working in the last hour. They all got a penny for their labour.
Not to say that people should knowingly wait til the last minute to be repentant for wrongs they may have done. It is just to say both the good and the evil may still get into heaven on the same day. Unlike his portrait in the OT, God is much more forgiving than we are.
If you MUST accept Jesus as your Saviour in order to be saved, what about the billions of beings that die as fetusis, infants, and mentally deficient, etc.? For them to accept Jesus would be impossible. So are they condemned to hell because of the conditions over which they had no control? If God made them incapable of worship before their death how can God punish them for it?
All of this talk about “The Churchâ€Â
koan wrote: If you MUST accept Jesus as your Saviour in order to be saved, what about the billions of beings that die as fetusis, infants, and mentally deficient, etc.? For them to accept Jesus would be impossible. So are they condemned to hell because of the conditions over which they had no control? If God made them incapable of worship before their death how can God punish them for it?
I struggled with that question for years. I have concluded that each of us are responsible for answering to God as we are called by Him. It is His creation and His plan. What is fair or right is His decision to make. I know that He presented Himself to me through Jesus. It is my choice to either accept Him or reject Him based on the opportunity presented to me in Jesus Christ. What He decides to do with those we think are incapable of accepting Him or haven’t had the opportunity, is up to Him and no matter what that is, it is just, because He is God.
I struggled with that question for years. I have concluded that each of us are responsible for answering to God as we are called by Him. It is His creation and His plan. What is fair or right is His decision to make. I know that He presented Himself to me through Jesus. It is my choice to either accept Him or reject Him based on the opportunity presented to me in Jesus Christ. What He decides to do with those we think are incapable of accepting Him or haven’t had the opportunity, is up to Him and no matter what that is, it is just, because He is God.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
All of this talk about “The Churchâ€Â
Koan :-6
A lot of questions. I would not say that one has to be baptized to enter the Kingdom of God.
In Acts 10 we are told that those who love God and do what is right are acceptable to him. In Jer. 17 along with what Clint has said God judges the heart. In James 2 we read that mercy triumphs over judgment. In Matt. 22 we read that the Greatest commandment is "Love God and your neighbour". He said that this was the greatest commandment and all the rest are related to it. In Matt 25 we find that those who fed the hungry, clothed the naked etc are welcomed into the kingdom of God. He pointed out that by doing this to the lowest of people we were in fact doing it to him. Therefore one might not even be aware of there status.
Jesus new that none of us were capable of keeping all of the laws but his love and grace are unconditional. No matter why he was crucified it is enough to validate those who truly want do do what is right.
I have come to the realization that God is inclusive not exclusive. For Christians we see the fullness of God in One Yeshua of Nazareth but this does not mean that God is not also present in other folks as well. After all all of the Great Faiths of the world are an attempt to reach for and understand the Divine. Hence, in spite of the horror that my fundamentalist friends find in my position I believe it is the one to which I was led.
Being raised in a fundamentalist/literalist church this did not come easy but God will have his way anyway.
What is really needed is not a belief of a doctrine or a dogma but one develops a living transforming relationship with God. That is what the Kingdom of God on earth is about. He was concerned about the downtrodden, the outcasts, the dispossessed, those under a cruel domination system. The Kingdom of God here on earth will be an egalitarian society where no one goes without and no one is ahead, so to speak.
Shalom
Ted :-6
A lot of questions. I would not say that one has to be baptized to enter the Kingdom of God.
In Acts 10 we are told that those who love God and do what is right are acceptable to him. In Jer. 17 along with what Clint has said God judges the heart. In James 2 we read that mercy triumphs over judgment. In Matt. 22 we read that the Greatest commandment is "Love God and your neighbour". He said that this was the greatest commandment and all the rest are related to it. In Matt 25 we find that those who fed the hungry, clothed the naked etc are welcomed into the kingdom of God. He pointed out that by doing this to the lowest of people we were in fact doing it to him. Therefore one might not even be aware of there status.
Jesus new that none of us were capable of keeping all of the laws but his love and grace are unconditional. No matter why he was crucified it is enough to validate those who truly want do do what is right.
I have come to the realization that God is inclusive not exclusive. For Christians we see the fullness of God in One Yeshua of Nazareth but this does not mean that God is not also present in other folks as well. After all all of the Great Faiths of the world are an attempt to reach for and understand the Divine. Hence, in spite of the horror that my fundamentalist friends find in my position I believe it is the one to which I was led.
Being raised in a fundamentalist/literalist church this did not come easy but God will have his way anyway.
What is really needed is not a belief of a doctrine or a dogma but one develops a living transforming relationship with God. That is what the Kingdom of God on earth is about. He was concerned about the downtrodden, the outcasts, the dispossessed, those under a cruel domination system. The Kingdom of God here on earth will be an egalitarian society where no one goes without and no one is ahead, so to speak.
Shalom
Ted :-6
All of this talk about “The Churchâ€Â
I've been asked to conduct a seminar this evening, on Dr. Marcus Bord, a world remound Biblical scholar and a Jesus scholar. I am looking forward to this with a great deal of anticipation. It should be most interesting.
I was able to spend three full days with Dr. Borg this past summer at the Vancouver School of Theology. He is a great and yet very humble Christian.
Shalom
Ted :-6
I was able to spend three full days with Dr. Borg this past summer at the Vancouver School of Theology. He is a great and yet very humble Christian.
Shalom
Ted :-6
All of this talk about “The Churchâ€Â
Ted :-6 :-6
Hope the seminar goes well and meets all your expectations. Wish I could be there...I'm not that far away you know. Maybe next time.
Hope the seminar goes well and meets all your expectations. Wish I could be there...I'm not that far away you know. Maybe next time.
All of this talk about “The Churchâ€Â
Ted wrote: I've been asked to conduct a seminar this evening, on Dr. Marcus Bord, a world remound Biblical scholar and a Jesus scholar. I am looking forward to this with a great deal of anticipation. It should be most interesting.
I was able to spend three full days with Dr. Borg this past summer at the Vancouver School of Theology. He is a great and yet very humble Christian.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Ted,
I have read your posts with fascination. Your ability to get your point across without being offensive or evasive is a gift. I’m sure those who attend the seminar will be blessed with new insight and a desire to further explore the wonders of God.
Clint
I was able to spend three full days with Dr. Borg this past summer at the Vancouver School of Theology. He is a great and yet very humble Christian.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Ted,
I have read your posts with fascination. Your ability to get your point across without being offensive or evasive is a gift. I’m sure those who attend the seminar will be blessed with new insight and a desire to further explore the wonders of God.
Clint
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
All of this talk about “The Churchâ€Â
koan/Clint :-6 :-6
Thanks. they went well and were received with a great deal of enthusiasm.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Thanks. they went well and were received with a great deal of enthusiasm.
Shalom
Ted :-6