The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.

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Mickiel
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The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.

Post by Mickiel »

I have been driving cars for some time in my life, and generally avoided the vehicles that you have to shift the gears yourself. Prefering rather those that automatically shift the gears for you, the traditional way of driving. I used to use this very same approach towards the bible, allowing tradition to mold my mind and views of God automatically. But then when I started to hear things I didnot really agree with, I took a closer personal look at the bible for myself. I was literally shocked at the difference in what I heard from those who were teaching and preaching, and what the bible itself was saying.

The bible itself has shifted my thinking into another direction. I am not a christian or a religous man, but I do believe in God and am attracted to the bible, but I find some serious contridictions between the bible itself, and what religious people are teaching about it. The list is long, but the most glaring difference that has shifted my view is this: the preachers are saying that many sinners will perish in their sin, the bible describes God as a being that is not willing that any would perish, 2 Pet. 3:9, but that all would come into repentance. I personally don't know God, but in my view, such a being of obvious immense power, if this being has a will of none perishing, I don't see how his will cannot be done. So I decided to search the scriptures for Life, instead of the death of humanitys sinners. The search has turned up some interesting things about God, this most egnigmatic being, which I think spells good news for sinful humanity. Peace.
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JAB;840002 wrote: Enjoy your search Mickiel. A journey through the Bible is both a perplexing and glorious one. :)




Well yes indeed it is, and I am beginning to see that my search shouldnot be limited. I personally am interested in Salvation, in how God thinks about it, and whats really going on with it. I am sorry to admit that I am turned off by most popular views of Salvation, which seems to premeate through a lot of churchs. I am attracted to the bible though, espically a verse in 1 Tim.2:3-4;" This is Good and acceptable in the Sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth." A stunning couple of verses, they stunned me when I read them. I thought to myself, well goodness, is this what God really wants? I hadnot heard that in churchs, but yet there it was.

The verse just seemed to look at me, instead of me at it, as if it was saying;" Well do you believe this ?" Its is saying that what is acceptable to God is that everyone be saved, which is heresey to even think of in most churchs, I mean whos wants to believe that all people can make it? Yet there the verse was, plain as day. This shifted some gears in my mind, so I searched to find support of this in Gods desires, not human preaching and interpitation. And let me say that it narrows your search when you look only to Gods word to explain itself, and not lean on the understanding of others.

In Job 23:13, a very revealing thing about God is mentioned;" But he is unique and who can turn him? And what his soul desires that he does." 1 Tim.2:3-4 states that God desires all men to be saved and come to know the truth. Viewing these two scriptures, I was stunned, because if God gets his desires, then all men will be saved. I thought to myself that perhaps it is really true that God has not willed any to perish, but for all to repent. Yet if I was to judge that from our human history or even this present day, come on now, I know all men have not been led to repent. So that placed me into a position of looking deeper into the Bible to find an answer, and the word of God is slap full of them. Peace.
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Post by BHughesNC »

Mickel, as a Christian and someone who tries to share the love of God with others I am saddened by the fact that you had never heard the "truth" about God from anyone. I am very encouraged however that you are interested enough to find the truth from the bible. That is the only real source of truth. Preachers that do not preach the truth and the whole truth as taught in the bible will be held responsible for their actions.



God is a loving God! Most certainly it is His will that ALL would come to Salvation. The bible is full of God's blessing on mankind and His expression of love for them. The only troubling part about this post is that God created us with a will of our own, and the ability and desire to decide things for ourselves. Why? For the very reason you talk about. He is powerful enough to make us ALL come to repentence (salvation). That would make Him unjust. He would be looked upon as a bullying parent forcing us to love Him just because He is who He is. He is also powerful enough to say "break the rules and it is over, no way out". He therefore through the death of His only begotten Son gave us a way that ALL could come to salvation, our debt is paid, our sins covered, salvation is there for all who will come.



"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."Romans 10:9



God's love for you is real, it is expressed all through the bible, the bible is the gospel, the gospel is the Good News. Good News about what? That "God so loved the world that whosoever should believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16



So everyone can have salvation and that is God's desire, but He loves you too much to force it on you!



More messages should be about this biblical Good News and not so much "How to Avoid Hell"



May God Bless your endeavors in biblical study



Bobby
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Post by Mickiel »

BHughesNC;840202 wrote:

God is a loving God! Most certainly it is His will that ALL would come to Salvation. The bible is full of God's blessing on mankind and His expression of love for them. The only troubling part about this post is that God created us with a will of our own, and the ability and desire to decide things for ourselves. Why? For the very reason you talk about. He is powerful enough to make us ALL come to repentence (salvation). That would make Him unjust. He would be looked upon as a bullying parent forcing us to love Him just because He is who He is. He is also powerful enough to say "break the rules and it is over, no way out". He therefore through the death of His only begotten Son gave us a way that ALL could come to salvation, our debt is paid, our sins covered, salvation is there for all who will come.



"May God Bless your endeavors in biblical study



Bobby




Well I thank you for your best wishes of my bible study. I read this response and the only troubling part about your post, is the assumption that God has left Salvation up to each individuals personal choice or will or something like that. I find that quite troubling, because it suggest that God has left salvation up to the individual persons choice of will or belief, which would still leave most of humanity in a bit of confusion, because most people willnot choose God if Salvation was left to them. I am sure that God is aware of this, so why would a being like God, who is wise enough to know that humans are foolish enough to choose not to believe in him, elect to make Salvation a human choice thing?

If I had to save my children by doing things that would be considered bullying, I couldcareless who would label it bullying, I'm going to save them, and from what I have read in the Bible, God couldcareless who perceives him as bullying, he's going to save all of humanity. From my studies of the bible, Sin is the only thing that could condemn a human. In John 1:29, it says " Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the Sins of the World." When I read this I was stunned. It says Jesus has taken away the SinS of the WORLD! And you know I thought to myself, if I am to believe this, then nothing Christians say in their sermons can bring the sins back. No amount of christian explination, no Christian interpitation that leaves so much room for Jesus failure, no Christian unbelief in these scriptures, can bring any sin back on humanity, Jesus has taken away the Sins of the World, and sin is the only thing that could condemn humanity. I was overcome with a kind of Joy that I have not known.

In my study of the Bible, I have actually found that the things that the Christians are saying, are more in oppisition with the Bible than any other influence I have encountered. This was a very disturbing surprise to me. One would think that Christians would be an example of Truth, but I have not found that to be so. No reflection on their personal characther, because I don't know them personally, but the reflection is on their words, as compared to Gods Words, there is a very noticable difference.

Take this Christians words as an example. BHughes ,who has admitted to being Christian, has suggested that it would be unjust of God to make us repent. This makes no sense to me, if I need to be saved, I don't care how you save me, just do it, don't wait for or depend on my permission. Here I am drowning, and your standing there with the power and ability to save me, yet your more concern with how your act of salvation should be viewed, so you have established a way which " Gives Salvation with Godly Honor',that being the person drowning, must " Want to be Saved", must confess that they submit thjeir will to the Savior, then the Savior now feels confortable to save them. And this is a common belief amoungst Christians, which is why I do not want to be one. I haven't seen this in the Bible.

In 1John 4:14, the reason God sent Jesus to the Earth is shown. " And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the World." That is a heavenly mission of worldwide responsibility. I read that Jesus has taken away the Sins of the World. I Read that God sent Jesus to be the Savior of the World. I read that God is not willing that Anyone would Perish. I read that it is Gods desire that everybody be saved. I like reading this bible. I like what it is saying about God, and I believe it. Peace.
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Post by along-for-the-ride »

Sometimes, too much emphasis is put on the destination (salvation), and not enough is put on the journey (life). How are we living our lives while we are here on earth?



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Post by spot »

Finally, an evangelist who quotes the texts he makes reference to. It's so much easier to follow the lines of thought. Congratulations.

Where do you get "he's going to save all of humanity" from, bible-wise?
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Post by Mickiel »

along-for-the-ride;840391 wrote: Sometimes, too much emphasis is put on the destination (salvation), and not enough is put on the journey (life). How are we living our lives while we are here on earth?



Just my opinion.




Well I can understand that, how we live must have some meaning, and the bible has shited some gears in my mind in that area also. I had thought that Salvation was based on how we live, its what was being taught in my neighborhood during my youth. That if we lived a good life, that God would be pleased and we would go to heaven, conversely, if we didnot,then we were sent to this place called hell, where humans are kept alive and punished forever, which struck me as being something insane. So religion itself has shifted the emphasis on how we live this life journey, but has suggested some very serious implications that can happen if you don't succeed in your Journey. I have trouble with those implications.

One could do as you have suggested and live a good life journey, but then get to the end, and according to some interpitations, that just not be judged as " Good Enough", well then its off to this hell with them. Thats a heavy mental block to put on a person who really wants to live a good life everyday. I have not seen this in the bible. What I have seen, hints more at Salvation being given to humanity, no matter how they have lived or done on their journey.

Rom.5:18 Because of one mans sin, all men were condemned, which does not seem fair to me. All of humanity was condemned because of what this Adam guy did. But is just as unbelievable that because of this other one man, Jesus Christ, how he did on his journey, that resulted in the Salvation of all of humanity, which seems just as unfair on that end. But thats what this verse claims. So what I see in the bible is that Salvation is a done, free gift deal. And how we do on this life journey, I begin to think it matters, but it matters little anyway. Peace.
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Post by Mickiel »

spot;840393 wrote: Finally, an evangelist who quotes the texts he makes reference to. It's so much easier to follow the lines of thought. Congratulations.

Where do you get "he's going to save all of humanity" from, bible-wise?




I am not an evangelist, I am not a Christian, but I do believe in the bible. That being said, I have found many, many scriptures that show the Salvation of all. It would be too brash and take up too much room to list them, but I suggest a study of the bible for yourself. While your at it, consider 1 Tim. 2:6;"Who gave himself as a Ransom for all." Here the death of Jesus is called a " Ransom for All", that means everyone will benefit from his death, not just the believers. 1John 2:2 confirms this;"And he himself is the Propitiation for our sins, ( the " Our" here means believers) and not " Ours only", but also for those of the Whole World."

Propitiation means satisfaction, or rendering Favorable, which means Christ death renders Gods judgement over sinful humanity in the favor of Salvation. Jesus did this for everyone, but thats not whats being taught. Peace.
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Post by spot »

Off-hand I note Luke 13:3: "I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish". It sounds rather distant from what you're offering. There's also "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law" from Romans 2:12. One wonders what perish and judge mean if they're not to be granted the weight they carry in a normal dictionary. Why "if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell"? Is Matthew in 18:9 speaking of a non-judgemental non-punishing sort of hell? Why does he highlight the fire? "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?" - it's obvious that nobody told Matthew in 23:33 what you've been told.

How much of 2 Peter 2 can I quote without sounding preachy? If God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard) - if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.

John is fairly explicit in 3:36 with "Whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him". Paul agrees in Romans 2:5, "Because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed". As he told the Ephesians in 5:6, "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient". The angel of Revelation 14:19, you will remember, "swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath". None of this fits well with the Salvation of all. Perhaps we need a new bible for this new religion you're offering. I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion in the slightest, I just don't think the bible's a very good place to go for confirmation.

What does "believe in" mean, in "I do believe in the bible"?
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Post by Hope6 »

my favorite verse is John 3:16 For God so loved the world he gave His only begotton son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.

i heard a preacher once call this Christianity in a nutshell because it summed up what our faith is supposed to be about.

i take it to mean that regardless of what else we do, if we believe Jesus is the Savior we are saved.
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Post by spot »

Hope6;840415 wrote: i take it to mean that regardless of what else we do, if we believe Jesus is the Savior we are saved.Does it not also imply that regardless of what else we do, if we refuse to believe Jesus is the Savior we are damned?
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Post by Mickiel »

[QUOTE=spot;

None of this fits well with the Salvation of all. Perhaps we need a new bible for this new religion you're offering. I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion in the slightest, I just don't think the bible's a very good place to go for confirmation.

QUOTE]



I am not involved with any religion, nor seeking to start one. In fact, I don't like religion, nor do I like searching the Scriptures for death or to find condemnation., I like to search them to find life and Salvation. No new bible is needed, explain to me what scriptures I have used that are not in the bible. I simply believe the ones I have shown, as I believe this one; Hebrews 2:9, latter part of verse;" That by the Grace of God he might taste death for everyone." That everyone includes those in the perishing and judgement verses you have shown. This gives them the hope that cynical Christians would take away from them.

I also like Luke 9:56;" For the Son of man didnot come to destroy mens lives, but to save them." This is what I believe in and see in the bible, and its also why I cannot attend Christian churchs. I am not attracted to the message that seems to confirm that the vast majority of humanitys lives will be herded into some punishing pit for eternity. In Mark 3:28, Jesus says all the sins of men will be forgiven, again a conformation of total forgiveness for humanity that includes sinners, forgiveness is not an exclusive right of Christians, but you can't tell them that. Christians are trying to keep Salvation and forgiveness all to themselves.

In Luke 3:6 it states that All flesh shall see the Salvation of God. All flesh means everyone shall see Salvation, its their inheritence. Theres no need to get a new bible, these verses are in the bible you are reading, your just not attracted to them, as most Christians are not. Christians search the bible for ways to condemn others who do not believe as they do, which is a turn off to me. I have grown tired of it, so I have as little to do with them as possible.

In 1 Tim. 4:10;" For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is " The Savior of ALL Men", especially of believers." My hope is fixed on this same amazing fact, that God will save all humans, but then it pauses and states espically those who believe, and obvious reference to the before mentioned God being the Savior of all men, which have to be unbelievers, because it adds in addition, " Espically of believers." Wondeful salvation verse, simply stunning, the hope it gives to unbelievers. And the biblical message is actually fixed on this, very oppisite from the Christian fixation on hell and judgement. Peace.
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Post by spot »

Mickiel wrote: explain to me what scriptures I have used that are not in the bibleThere are some quarrelsome factions within Christianity who raise their eyebrows if they feel you're picking and choosing just those passages which you like while rejecting those you don't.

You're telling me I have absolutely no way to refuse Salvation and judge God? I was rather counting that I'd be able to somehow, it's kept me optimistic all these years.

The position you're pleased with has a long history in Christianity, some of which is discussed on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation
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Post by Hope6 »

spot;840416 wrote: Does it not also imply that regardless of what else we do, if we refuse to believe Jesus is the Savior we are damned?


well Jesus also said I am the way the truth and the life, no one cometh unto the Father but by me. so i guess it is saying that.
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You don't find that even vaguely sick-making?
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[QUOTE=spot;840420]There are some quarrelsome factions within Christianity who raise their eyebrows if they feel you're picking and choosing just those passages which you like while rejecting those you don't.

You're telling me I have absolutely no way to refuse Salvation and judge God? I was rather counting that I'd be able to somehow, it's kept me optimistic all these years.



I have never said that you can't do anything of the sort, do as you please, it matters not to me what you do. I'm going to do and believe as I please, why would I speak against others doing the same. Explain to me where I said to you that you cannot refuse salvation or judge God, show me where I said that to you. If this is a foretaste of what it is like to converse with you, then you could manufactor anything and claim I said things that I have not said, such conversations with those who do that are never meaningful.

My position has nothing to do with Christianity, or those who have usurped the name Christian. My positions are my own, mine and mine alone. I am not affiliated with any group, muchless christians. Peace.
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Mickiel;840426 wrote: [QUOTE=spot;840420]You're telling me I have absolutely no way to refuse Salvation and judge God? I was rather counting that I'd be able to somehow, it's kept me optimistic all these years.I have never said that you can't do anything of the sort, do as you please, it matters not to me what you do. I'm going to do and believe as I please, why would I speak against others doing the same. Explain to me where I said to you that you cannot refuse salvation or judge God, show me where I said that to you. If this is a foretaste of what it is like to converse with you, then you could manufactor anything and claim I said things that I have not said, such conversations with those who do that are never meaningful.[/QUOTE]You're kidding me - it's the core of your opening post! "if this being has a will of none perishing, I don't see how his will cannot be done"! What does that mean except nobody is capable of avoiding salvation?

How about this bit later on? "the only troubling part about your post, is the assumption that God has left Salvation up to each individuals personal choice or will or something like that. I find that quite troubling, because it suggest that God has left salvation up to the individual persons choice of will or belief, which would still leave most of humanity in a bit of confusion, because most people willnot choose God if Salvation was left to them. I am sure that God is aware of this, so why would a being like God, who is wise enough to know that humans are foolish enough to choose not to believe in him, elect to make Salvation a human choice thing?" - what does that mean except nobody is capable of avoiding salvation?

I wouldn't dream of manufacturing anything and claim you said things that you have not said. It would be silly, you'd just point back and make a fool of me by showing it wasn't true.
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spot;840429 wrote: You're kidding me - it's the core of your opening post! "if this being has a will of none perishing, I don't see how his will cannot be done"! What does that mean except nobody is capable of avoiding salvation?

How about this bit later on? "the only troubling part about your post, is the assumption that God has left Salvation up to each individuals personal choice or will or something like that. I find that quite troubling, because it suggest that God has left salvation up to the individual persons choice of will or belief, which would still leave most of humanity in a bit of confusion, because most people willnot choose God if Salvation was left to them. I am sure that God is aware of this, so why would a being like God, who is wise enough to know that humans are foolish enough to choose not to believe in him, elect to make Salvation a human choice thing?" - what does that mean except nobody is capable of avoiding salvation?

I wouldn't dream of manufacturing anything and claim you said things that you have not said. It would be silly, you'd just point back and make a fool of me by showing it wasn't true.




I repeat, I have never stated that you can't refuse Salvation, you can refuse it until your red in the Face, you can make all the judgements against God that you so please. This is what the majority of humans have already done, why should I state that they cannot do whats already been done. It matters not to me what they have done, or what you will do.

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Mickiel;840433 wrote: I repeat, I have never stated that you can't refuse Salvation, you can refuse it until your red in the Face, you can make all the judgements against God that you so please. This is what the majority of humans have already done, why should I state that they cannot do whats already been done. It matters not to me what they have done, or what you will do.This is a distinction between attempt to and succeed in, then. I can unsuccessfully refuse salvation, you tell me. That rather fails in my purpose, don't you think? The whole point of refusing Salvation is to point out to God what a dreadful and complete hash He's made of Creation, it's my one and only way of voting with my feet and telling the old fraud that he's worse than useless. What'll I have to do? Rape an angel? Tear off their wings? And meanwhile eternal life singing hymns in the celestial choir will be mandatory regardless of how much I spoil the performance? I must say I find your theology rather unlikely.
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Post by Mickiel »

spot;840434 wrote: This is a distinction between attempt to and succeed in, then. I can unsuccessfully refuse salvation, you tell me. That rather fails in my purpose, don't you think? The whole point of refusing Salvation is to point out to God what a dreadful and complete hash He's made of Creation, it's my one and only way of voting with my feet and telling the old fraud that he's worse than useless. What'll I have to do? Rape an angel? Tear off their wings? And meanwhile eternal life singing hymns in the celestial choir will be mandatory regardless of how much I spoil the performance? I must say I find your theology rather unlikely.




For the third and last time, I have never told you that you can't refeuse Salvation. I said that I believe Salvation is going to be given to everyone, I never said that no one can refuse it. Never. Listen, if your intent on climing the empire state building and jumping off, thats your business and your right to do so. If you want to eat rocks or argue with God giving you Salvation, thats your right to do so, I'm certainly not going to tell you that you can't, or try to stop you, for the third time, you do and believe as you wish, it makes no difference to me.

Allow me to write that again very clearly. I Have Never Stated That no one can refuse Salvation. And I couldcareless about those who who have a mind to refuse it, as I couldcareless about those who try to limit it from others, both groups are of no concern of mine.

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Post by spot »

So why would a being like God elect to make Salvation a human choice thing?

He's going to save all of humanity, you tell me. I'm a part of humanity. I refuse point-blank to be saved. Where does that leave me? Still singing out of tune around the Throne through gritted teeth, completely unwilling but compelled by force?

If I've misunderstood you and I can successfully refuse salvation then He's not going to save all of humanity and it turns out that, despite what you started with, Salvation is a human choice thing after all. I'd rather hoped it was.
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Post by Mickiel »

spot;840441 wrote: So why would a being like God, who is wise enough to know that humans are foolish enough to choose not to believe in him, elect to make Salvation a human choice thing?Quote

Again, I have never stated that Salvation was a choice thing. I have stated that it will be meaningless to converse with you, because you put words in peoples mouths that they have not stated. I already know this conversation with you is meaningless, because you keep saying that I have said things that I have not. I said Salvation is free and given not according to choice.





He's going to save all of humanity, you tell me. I'm a part of humanity. I refuse point-blank to be saved. Where does that leave me? Still singing out of tune around the Throne through gritted teeth, completely unwilling but compelled by force?




Well refuse it. It matters not to me that you refuse it, thats the way it is with you. God is not going to force humanity to believe in him, he does not have to. Your mind is closed to God, what your really asking is what he is going to do with you and others like you. Well he gave you a closed mind, so it falls to him to give you an open one. You talking about a God man, he can manipulate your mind and belief in any manner that he wishes too, and there would be absolutely nothing your strong oppisition could do about it. Nothing. He can change your very belief, manipulate your views from the core of your mind, implant within you any kind of thinking he so pleases.

He's already done it to you. You think now in the manner that you do, because God wanted you to oppose him. He wants you to reject him, and thats exactly what you are doing. Peace.
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Post by spot »

Mickiel wrote: You talking about a God man, he can manipulate your mind and belief in any manner that he wishes too, and there would be absolutely nothing your strong oppisition could do about it. Nothing. He can change your very belief, manipulate your views from the core of your mind, implant within you any kind of thinking he so pleases.Then He's evil and I'm right to rebel against him. Anything omnipotent is by definition evil. If your view of God is of an omnipotent being then you're worshipping the devil in disguise. Shake it off while you still can. Anything absolutely capable of doing good who refuses to do it is evil. That's not God, not if my dictionary knows anything about words.
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Post by Hope6 »

spot;840424 wrote: You don't find that even vaguely sick-making?


no, i guess because i was raised in the Christian faith, my parents started carrrying me to church at the age of 2, so i learned this at an early age.

being a Christian means you believe in Jesus Christ, hence the name.

so if we don't have the belief in the resurrection we have nothing.

our entire religion stems on the belief that Jesus died so we could be saved.
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Post by spot »

Hope6;840455 wrote: being a Christian means you believe in Jesus Christ, hence the name.And - to extend the point - being a Muslim or a Hindu or a Buddhist who's rejected Jesus Christ to stay within the faith of his community means you're condemned for eternity to hell, hence my question. That's a consequence of what you've written. It's why I asked whether you don't find that even vaguely sick-making. How can you not? Two adults in a hundred in India are Christians.
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Mickiel
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Post by Mickiel »

spot;840449 wrote: Then He's evil and I'm right to rebel against him. Anything omnipotent is by definition evil. If your view of God is of an omnipotent being then you're worshipping the devil in disguise. Shake it off while you still can. Anything absolutely capable of doing good who refuses to do it is evil. That's not God, not if my dictionary knows anything about words.




You rebel against him because thats what he wants you to do, thats the bottom line. The devil exist because God wants him to exist, thats the bottom line. You think like you do because God wants you to rebel against, and you will stay in that frame of mind until he releases you from it. And I believe the time will come when God releases us all from the stupidity were are trapped in.

You don't stand a chance Spot, your rebellion will go just where God wants it to go, and last as long as he wills it to. All Atheist are Atheist, because God wanted them to be Atheist, and every last one of them is destined to be with God, like it or not. You don't have a choice in that. Its nothing you can do about it. God cannot be manipulated by your hissy fits, you cannot bargain with him, your just in his hands, thats just all too it. Your future with him is not left to you.

And the same thing goes for any human, it matters not what they believe.

Peace.
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Post by Mickiel »

Jester;840454 wrote: Mickiel,

Just to clarify then you are saying that in your journey through the scriptures to date, you have determined that salvation is rendered to everyone equally, and it matters not whether one recieves it or rejects it salvation is sure to each person ever born. Is that right?

Jester




Right.
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Post by Mickiel »

Jester;840457 wrote: Mickiel, Please define the term 'salvation' as your using it.




Salvation is the intent of God for humanitys future, the very reason we were created. God created humans to Live, to have life, and to be with him forever, and I believe that is just what we are headed for, even those of us who don't have enough sense to realize it or believe it. Peace.
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Post by spot »

Mickiel;840462 wrote: You don't stand a chance Spot, your rebellion will go just where God wants it to go, and last as long as he wills it to. All Atheist are Atheist, because God wanted them to be Atheist, and every last one of them is destined to be with God, like it or not. You don't have a choice in that. Its nothing you can do about it. God cannot be manipulated by your hissy fits, you cannot bargain with him, your just in his hands, thats just all too it. Your future with him is not left to you.


It makes you wonder why He bothered creating anyone in that case. No free will for anyone, ever? I may win on the roundabout, then I'll lose on the swings. in or out there is never a doubt just who's pulling the strings. Why would He want to play with puppets? What value is there in forced love?
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Post by Hope6 »

spot;840461 wrote: And - to extend the point - being a Muslim or a Hundu or a Buddhist who's rejected Jesus Christ to stay within the faith of his community means you're condemned for eternity to hell, hence my question. That's a consequence of what you've written. It's why I asked whether you don't find that even vaguely sick-making. How can you not? Two adults in a hundred in India are Christians.


of course it makes me sick, the idea of anyone going to hell is very upsetting and saddening to me.

but if i am a Christian, which i am, i have to believe in all the Christian teachings i can't pick and choose to not believe something just because i don't like it.

and my faith teaches that Jesus is the only way to heaven.
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Post by nvalleyvee »

OK---OK--OK---

I have to say it.

What if Jesus or any of the other supposed prophets were not from a God? What is they were born from mankinds need to be kind to each other? What if we invented them to make our lives more just because of the oppression that was going on at the time?
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Mickiel
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Post by Mickiel »

spot;840466 wrote: It makes you wonder why He bothered creating anyone. No free will for anyone, ever? I may win on the roundabout, then I'll lose on the swings. in or out there is never a doubt just who's pulling the strings. Why would He want to play with puppets? What value is there in forced love?




From what I have read about God, he does not need to force anything. Force for what, he gets his way reguardless. There is his way, then there is nothingelse. Why does God need to force himself on any puny human? That does not even figure to me. You don't force people who have no choice, their going to do what you say, because there is nothingelse they can do.

You see I cannot communicate to you thatGod will place his Spirit into all of humanity, which will open their eyes to him and his ways, and each will willingly submit to their creator, they will Love to do it. So I have not spoke in those terms, but I have read it and believe it.

So I talk to you on YOUR terms. Yes, its God who is in control, no matter how much you don't like it, he pulls the strings. Not you, him. Its not going to be up to you Spot, you may not believe this, buit its a done deal. Your going to be with God weather you like it or not.

I don't see any other way. Not me. From what I have read about God, its his way, his will, his world, his Power, his control, his is the only option. Thats just how it is. And God couldcareless who disagrees with him. No one holds the power to stop him. Peace.
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Post by Mickiel »

Jester;840467 wrote: I think your confusing the eternal state of man with salvation, true man was created to spend all eternity (time as we know it) with God, and its true as you say that God is absoluterly in control of that time and all things that course through it and are made up of it, but the choice that we are left with is how we will spend all eternity with God, salvation then is not just about eternity its about where we spend that eternity. Thats the choice and its based on if God 'knows us', we arent 'known' of God until we recognize him and choose to agree with his determined statements form the bible, even though we may try to do the things he says to do. I offer these verses for you to consider the matter with:Quote

When you say where we spend that eternity, you leave open the possibility of spending it away from God, which I view as impossible.







Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Quote

God is able to bring all of humanity into the area of doing his will. There is no such thing as anyone doing Gods will by their own Choice or by their own power of belief. Belief in God is given by God, those who do Gods will, only do so because God set them to do it, and he will set all of humanity to do it.





Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


These two verses are talking about believers in God who held to believing and teaching doctrines that came from tradition, not from God. Its not talking about unbelievers, its talking about church people. Most likely Christians, in my view. They were a people who prophesised, did healings and did wondeful works, sounds like Christians to me. But even Christians will be saved in my view of the bible.

Peace.
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Post by spot »

Hope6;840469 wrote: and my faith teaches that Jesus is the only way to heaven.Given the monumental extent to which that's grotesquely unfair and unloving and un-Godlike, you could always assume there's something flawed in the way you were taught your faith. I'm a Christian, I know myself to be saved and I don't believe anything of the sort.
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Post by Hope6 »

Jester;840478 wrote: Then my entire life is a lie.

Then all Ive done to be as good as I am is just me doing it.

Then there would be one heck of a million coincidences in the world where I pray for somehing and it happens...

Too many realities for it not to be true.


you're right, there couldn't be those many coincidences, i don't believe in coincidences i believe there's a purpose behind everything.

and i know the power of prayer on a personal level as it has worked for me!
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Post by Hope6 »

spot;840482 wrote: Given the monumental extent to which that's grotesquely unfair and unloving and un-Godlike, you could always assume there's something flawed in the way you were taught your faith. I'm a Christian, I know myself to be saved and I don't believe anything of the sort.


okay, help me to understand how there can be another way to be saved, i'm always open to listening to others opinions.
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Post by Hope6 »

Jester;840492 wrote: There's not Hope, dont worry! Just hang unto your own very pretty name in Christ Jesus!

;)


don't worry i will, there's one thing i have is a lot of hope!

and a lot of faith!:)
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Post by Mickiel »

Jester;840486 wrote:

You havnt discussed the roleof the Holy Spirirt in mans salvation, nor how God offers salvation to all, nor the basic ways in which salvation is presented through creation and the revealed word of God.


Well you can discuss those things, I'll read it on your post, right now I am looking to discuss how the bible has shifted the gears in my mind, and yes, I'll admit that the biggest change of mind was the shift from limited Salvation, to the Salvation of all. I am sure you can make a long list of things I haven't discussed, but give me time, I'm not trying to write a book on this website, I just got here yesterday. But I will respond to everything said to me, I will do that, I only ignore people when they start disrespecting me, and no one here has done that. The Holy Spirit does intrest me, but I know little about it, and I don't have it myself, but it does seem to vist me from time to time and sprinkle a little here and a little there.

I had to ask myself the question," Can Jesus save everyone?" Well I think the bible answers that very clearly, and its all in the bible, but it has to be seen and believed, thats the hard part. For example, in Phil. 3:21;"Who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with his body of glory, by the exertion of the " Power that he Has to SUBJECT all things to himself." Jesus has the power to subject people to him, and I believe hes going to one day use that power to subject every human being born to him. And this belief so many have in free will is not going to stop him. When I run into people like Spot, I don't worry about their outright rejection of God, because I believe that Jesus will use his Power to subject them to him, just not today. I don't believe that today is the day of Salvation.

In John 6:44, the bible says that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father God draws them to him. So I don't believe in this evangelical free will choice of Salvation being up to the individual, God must move first, or the person just willnot believe, their mind will remain carnal. But I do believe in the Salvation of all. Jesus said in John 12:32 that if he be lifted up that he will draw all men to him. Well he got lifted up, but not all men have been drawn to him, so it must mean at a later time yet ahead, but I believe Jesus will do it.

Peace.
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Post by Mickiel »

Jester;840900 wrote:

Mikeil I dont think your too far off actually and as you study more I think if you use the same tenacity your shwoign now you'll understand more and more, keep in mind your thougline is slightly out of balnce right now, keep reading, that will fix it.

.


Well I feel the same way about the traditional views of the bible, that is off balance in my understanding, just as limited salvation is an off balance belief to me. And I am not just posting a few scriptures that support the salvation of all, I am going to load this post full of them, over time, not just my opinion, but genuine biblical scriptures. As I read the bible, I begin to see that Salvation is really based on God, not the human. Its based on what Christ has done, not on what we do.

One person here said to me that we should focus on how we live, not on Salvation. And most Christian thinking is along those lines. They view conversion as a kind of self improvement program, and to them, Salvation is based on human performance, thus much pressure is placed on them to perform, kind of like earning their Salvation. But the Bible reveals to me that Salvation is based on What God and Jesus did, not what we do. Its not even based on human belief.

Notice Romans 3:3;" What then? If some didnot believe, their unbelief willnot nullify the Faithfulness of God will it? No, may it never be!" Just because a human does not believe in God or Salvation, that does not nullify their Salvation in Gods eyes. It may nullify the Christians faith in the unbelievers, the Christians may nullify the Salvation of unbelievers, but Christians are not the Author of Salvation, nor do they control Salvation. I find christians to be far too negative in their view of unbelievers.

Peace.
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Post by YZGI »

nvalleyvee;840470 wrote: OK---OK--OK---



I have to say it.



What if Jesus or any of the other supposed prophets were not from a God? What is they were born from mankinds need to be kind to each other? What if we invented them to make our lives more just because of the oppression that was going on at the time?
What if all the Prophets were sent by God to lead different societies and different people in a different direction to the same end?
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Post by YZGI »

So, God is going to save us irregardless of our actions here on earth? I gotta admit, that would be mighty nice of him/her/it etc etc.

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