The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.

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FourPart
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Post by FourPart »

Mickiel;1489798 wrote: This knowledge I am about to share with you, may come as a surprise, which may be uncomfortable to the way you are trying to relate; God is not Jewish! God is not a Jew! He is not a respector of persons either! The biblical message is not Jewish, salvation has absolutely nothing to do with Jews. The Kingdom of God has nothing to do with Jews. Or any other race.
Who supposedly wrote the Bible? What Religion were they? Of course God is not Jewish. He doesn't exist, therefore cannot have a Religion. I meant Jewish God, as in the possessive. i.e. God of the Jews.
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Many Christians basterdise the Bible.
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Post by Ted »

Atonement theology is absurd. Jesus died on a cross for being a threat to the established Roman Empire.
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FourPart;1489801 wrote: Who supposedly wrote the Bible? What Religion were they? Of course God is not Jewish. He doesn't exist, therefore cannot have a Religion. I meant Jewish God, as in the possessive. i.e. God of the Jews.


God does not exist in your mind, because he is not supposed too. You think your mind can define existence.
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Post by Mickiel »

Ted;1489810 wrote: Atonement theology is absurd. Jesus died on a cross for being a threat to the established Roman Empire.




Jesus died on a cross, because of reasons long established before this world even was; you don't realize this, because you are not supposed too. This is not your language; its not your path; its not your consciousness.

This is not yours; because its not supposed to be just yet. Its no way possible you can get to it.
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Post by Mickiel »

Ted;1489806 wrote: Many Christians basterdise the Bible.




Many Christians, but not all of them; All Atheist basterdise it.
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Post by Mickiel »

Mickiel;1489821 wrote: Jesus died on a cross, because of reasons long established before this world even was; you don't realize this, because you are not supposed too. This is not your language; its not your path; its not your consciousness.

This is not yours; because its not supposed to be just yet. Its no way possible you can get to it.


Atheism is just one of many incubators that God uses to keep humans sleep until he is ready to wake them up; religion is just another one.
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Jesus died under a charge akin to treason. He was thought to be an enemy of Rome. He did not die for my sin or anyone else's. God does not concern itself with the day to day events on the earth..
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Why on earth would God want to keep humans asleep. According to that theory then those who die asleep have no chance of heaven, if you so believe. It is hardly fair to say He decided to let them perish.???????? Some God that is. He or it or she decides to "same" a few and damn the rest??? A loving God????
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Post by Mickiel »

Ted;1489845 wrote: Jesus died under a charge akin to treason. He was thought to be an enemy of Rome. He did not die for my sin or anyone else's. God does not concern itself with the day to day events on the earth..


The charge was he was trying to become a King, and that threatened Herod and Pilate. They thought Jesus came to help usher in a new human government , but he came to save the WHOLE WORLD, as is simple clear in 1 John 4:14.
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Post by Mickiel »

Ted;1489846 wrote: Why on earth would God want to keep humans asleep. According to that theory then those who die asleep have no chance of heaven, if you so believe. It is hardly fair to say He decided to let them perish.???????? Some God that is. He or it or she decides to "same" a few and damn the rest??? A loving God????




Its a brilliant move; put them all on ice, and thaw them out later and save them all! Freeze their consciousness on the truth about him, then show them all later.
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Mickiel;1489850 wrote: Its a brilliant move; put them all on ice, and thaw them out later and save them all! Freeze their consciousness on the truth about him, then show them all later.
Just where do you source this sort of wild fantasy? I don't have the Theological background that Ted has, but I'm certain that I've never heard of the Bible saying that mankind was born to remain asleep.

It seems to me that this is typical of how the Bible was written. Some nut comes along with some ridiculous claim, making it out to be the 'true' will of some non-existent God. The tale gets related by word of mouth through the generations until someone learns how to read & write & finally puts down the version that he remembers and it is accepted as being the absolute documented truth.
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Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1489856 wrote: Just where do you source this sort of wild fantasy? I don't have the Theological background that Ted has, but I'm certain that I've never heard of the Bible saying that mankind was born to remain asleep.

It seems to me that this is typical of how the Bible was written. Some nut comes along with some ridiculous claim, making it out to be the 'true' will of some non-existent God. The tale gets related by word of mouth through the generations until someone learns how to read & write & finally puts down the version that he remembers and it is accepted as being the absolute documented truth.




Oh its all in the bible, but its a spiritually discerned thing, its not Atheist speak.
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Mickiel;1489860 wrote: Oh its all in the bible, but its a spiritually discerned thing, its not Atheist speak.


It's all in the dictionary as well. You can take what words you want, put them in the order you want to make them mean what you want & discard the rest.
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Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1489867 wrote: It's all in the dictionary as well. You can take what words you want, put them in the order you want to make them mean what you want & discard the rest.


Oh sure, one can do that, its called manipulation; has the bible been manipulated, yes!

But I don't manipulate it; and I don't let others manipulate it to me; believer or unbeliever. I could give you a bible study showing how God put humanity to sleep spiritually, but it would be useless. That would be like you trying to show me the tenants of Atheism and why they are of value. To you, the bible is worthless , to me Atheism is meaningless, holding zero value; so why waste time with me with Atheist speak; its an unknown language. Why waste time with you with spiritual speak?
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Post by Ted »

I cannot see why God would want to put people to sleep and allow terrorism to flourish. The evangelical lot have been misusing and misunderstanding the Bible for at least 200 years. That allows them to make God in their image. Some of this stuff is absurd. Like saying God controls even the hurricanes and the earth quakes. What total nonsense.
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The Christmas story and the crucifixion story is another example. They are midrash and not history in any kind of detail. Yes Jesus was crucified but the rest is midrash. The Virgin birth is a myth from way before Jesus was born. No trip into Egypt and there is no record of a census of the kind reported in the Bible.
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Post by Ted »

It always amazes me the creative dancing some people go through to reconcile the discrepancies in the Bible. The evangelicals have done a lot of creative dancing over the years.
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Post by Mickiel »

Ted;1489881 wrote: I cannot see why God would want to put people to sleep and allow terrorism to flourish. The evangelical lot have been misusing and misunderstanding the Bible for at least 200 years. That allows them to make God in their image. Some of this stuff is absurd. Like saying God controls even the hurricanes and the earth quakes. What total nonsense.




I see why God would want to put the consciousness of humanity to sleep, you just don't see it; but your not supposed to; your supposed to see Atheism, and that's why you do; your supposed too.
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Post by Mickiel »

Ted;1489886 wrote: It always amazes me the creative dancing some people go through to reconcile the discrepancies in the Bible. The evangelicals have done a lot of creative dancing over the years.


I recognize the discrepancies in the bible; a fact you have trouble with, because it does not fit your common gripes with believers.
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Ted;1489884 wrote: The Christmas story and the crucifixion story is another example. They are midrash and not history in any kind of detail. Yes Jesus was crucified but the rest is midrash. The Virgin birth is a myth from way before Jesus was born. No trip into Egypt and there is no record of a census of the kind reported in the Bible.




Atheism is midrash.
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Mickiel;1489891 wrote: Atheism is midrash.


It's like a school playground....

"You're adopted".

"No, you're adopted".

"No, you're adopted".

etc.

Atheism can not possibly be midrash. Midrash is essentially the teaching of a dogma through the use of metaphor. Atheism is the lack of teaching of any dogma. You don't need metaphor to drum nothing into someone. You don't need dirt to keep a clean glass clean.

Furthermore, despite you accusations toward Ted being atheist - you do realise he is nothing of the sort? I am atheist - absolutely. Even more than atheist - I am opposed to Religion & all the troubles caused in its name.
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Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1489892 wrote: It's like a school playground....

"You're adopted".

"No, you're adopted".

"No, you're adopted".

etc.

Atheism can not possibly be midrash. Midrash is essentially the teaching of a dogma through the use of metaphor. Atheism is the lack of teaching of any dogma. You don't need metaphor to drum nothing into someone. You don't need dirt to keep a clean glass clean.

Furthermore, despite you accusations toward Ted being atheist - you do realise he is nothing of the sort? I am atheist - absolutely. Even more than atheist - I am opposed to Religion & all the troubles caused in its name.




Atheism is Midrash because it constantly uses myths to support its views. As far as Ted is concerned, its easy to not recognize what a person is, when they sound like what you think they are.
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Mickiel;1489896 wrote: Atheism is Midrash because it constantly uses myths to support its views. As far as Ted is concerned, its easy to not recognize what a person is, when they sound like what you think they are.
How does atheism use myths to support its views. The very basis of atheism is the denial of the validity of myths.
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FourPart;1489922 wrote: How does atheism use myths to support its views. The very basis of atheism is the denial of the validity of myths.


Stunning denial of truth. Insane denial of reality. You use Greek gods, Hercules, Thor, all kinds of myths to garner support for your views.
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The only way an Atheist would use them is as demonstrations of myths. In no way does any Atheist believe any of these myths. All Gods are mythology, whether it be from Ancient Greece or your Bible. That is the only way in which an Atheist uses myths - in the acceptance that they exist as falsehoods. There are those who insist the earth is flat. I accept that there are those people. Their belief in the earth being flat is a myth. I accept that myth exists. That does not mean I am using that myth to prove it isn't.
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FourPart;1489948 wrote: The only way an Atheist would use them is as demonstrations of myths. In no way does any Atheist believe any of these myths. All Gods are mythology, whether it be from Ancient Greece or your Bible. That is the only way in which an Atheist uses myths - in the acceptance that they exist as falsehoods. There are those who insist the earth is flat. I accept that there are those people. Their belief in the earth being flat is a myth. I accept that myth exists. That does not mean I am using that myth to prove it isn't.




Nonsense, myths are an inner part of the Atheist denial. Part of your vocabulary. You need them to state your case.
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Post by Ted »

Myth is a story created to teach a truth or to pass on a message. Some folks including many Christians simply don't like the truth. They turn the Bible into an object of idolatry. The parables of Jesus and the parables about Jesus were created to pass on truths of a spiritual nature.
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Post by Ted »

Spot is that saving humanity from the Bible? Spong has a neat book out called "Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalism" Just not doing it soon enough. LOL
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Post by Mickiel »

Ted;1489965 wrote: Myth is a story created to teach a truth or to pass on a message. Some folks including many Christians simply don't like the truth. They turn the Bible into an object of idolatry. The parables of Jesus and the parables about Jesus were created to pass on truths of a spiritual nature.




Every Atheist I have ever debated, has constantly used myths in their presentation; you can't do without it.
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Neither can religion. You really have no idea about Midrash concerning the ancient and more modern Jewish writings.
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All religions rely on myth.
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All teachers including Jesus use or used myths in their lessons. The book of Ruth is but a short fictional story. Job is a poem of fiction.
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Mickiel;1489982 wrote: Every Atheist I have ever debated, has constantly used myths in their presentation; you can't do without it.
As far as you're concerned, the use of a hypothetical situation would be the use of myth.

Where have I 'constantly used myths' in my presentation, apart from as acknowledgement that they are but myths? I consider the entire Bible to be a myth. By making that statement, do you consider that to be making the use of myth? Of course, in that sense an Atheist can't do without it because something that doesn't exist can't be renounced. The myth exists.
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Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1489996 wrote: As far as you're concerned, the use of a hypothetical situation would be the use of myth.

Where have I 'constantly used myths' in my presentation, apart from as acknowledgement that they are but myths? I consider the entire Bible to be a myth. By making that statement, do you consider that to be making the use of myth? Of course, in that sense an Atheist can't do without it because something that doesn't exist can't be renounced. The myth exists.


Atheism is Midrash and myths.
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Post by Mickiel »

Mickiel;1490020 wrote: Atheism is Midrash and myths.


An interesting take on Midrash;

https://paganleft.wordpress.com/2015/02 ... s-midrash/
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Mickiel;1490024 wrote: An interesting take on Midrash;

https://paganleft.wordpress.com/2015/02 ... s-midrash/
The article supports the fact that the Bible is Midrash. It makes no attempt at saying that Atheism is Midrash.
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Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1490025 wrote: The article supports the fact that the Bible is Midrash. It makes no attempt at saying that Atheism is Midrash.




Well in case you have not noticed, I use both pro and con in this thread.
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Post by Mickiel »

Mickiel;1490031 wrote: Well in case you have not noticed, I use both pro and con in this thread.


The bible is both pro and con; according to how you interpret it. I see GREAT hope in it for us all!
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Mickiel;1490445 wrote: The bible is both pro and con; according to how you interpret it. I see GREAT hope in it for us all!


I love how you always respond to your own posts, quoting yourself in order to try & give them support.

"According to how you interpret it". Therein lies the problem. It's ambiguous, at best, and is simply interpreted to however the self promoted powers that be see fit to interpret it so as to best suit their needs, while the gullible blindly follow, accepting that their claims are the "True Way".
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[QUOTE=FourPart;1490456]I love how you always respond to your own posts, quoting yourself in order to try & give them support.

"QUOTE]



Thank you. I love doing it.
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Post by Mickiel »

Mickiel;1490458 wrote: [QUOTE=FourPart;1490456]I love how you always respond to your own posts, quoting yourself in order to try & give them support.

"QUOTE]



Thank you. I love doing it.




https://www.nytimes.com/books/first/f/f ... bible.html
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Post by Ted »

The Bible has not changed but how we read it and understand it has changed. The 4 Gospels do not contain a lot of history though there is some.
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Post by Mickiel »

Ted;1490812 wrote: The Bible has not changed but how we read it and understand it has changed. The 4 Gospels do not contain a lot of history though there is some.


I think the bible is loaded with history.
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Post by Ted »

My understanding is "not so" It does contain history but for instance most of the Gospels contain very little.
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Post by Mickiel »

Ted;1490820 wrote: My understanding is "not so" It does contain history but for instance most of the Gospels contain very little.




I disagree, here is a detailed work on their history :

The Four Gospels. Sources and History
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To be pedantic, I suppose in the truest sense of the word, all of the Gospels - and the entire Bible in general is History, as the very word, "History", simply means "His Story". That's all it is - a Story.
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Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1490862 wrote: To be pedantic, I suppose in the truest sense of the word, all of the Gospels - and the entire Bible in general is History, as the very word, "History", simply means "His Story". That's all it is - a Story.


Its a great story.
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Post by FourPart »

Mickiel;1490867 wrote: Its a great story.
As the phrase goes, "The Greatest Story Ever Told" - but still just a story.
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Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1490874 wrote: As the phrase goes, "The Greatest Story Ever Told" - but still just a story.


The greatest historical story I have ever read.

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