Well I believe this is what the bible is saying, not really me. I mean thats what I am reading, Salvation is a God thing, not a human thing. In 1 Timothy 1:15, and I trust this scripture;"It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance, that Jesus came into this world to save sinners." Now I do admit to trusting in the Bible, it just means something to me, I believe it to be the truth. This scripture states that you can trust the fact, and fully accept it, that Jesus sole reason for comming to earth was to save sinners. Well every human is a sinner according to Rom.3:23, which means that Jesus came to Save everyone. 1 John 4:14 calls Jesus the Savior of the World, how can he be called the savior of the world, if he does not save a world?
There is this book in the Bible called Titus, in 2:11 of that book it says;" For the Grace of God has appeared, bringing Salvation to " All Men." Now I am going to keep showing these Salvation of all verses, but I tell you ahead of time, mostly Christians will disagree with them, because Christians do not want everyone to be saved, or don't believe it. They believe God is " Partial", or picking only certain people for Salvation. But the bible says that God is not " Partial", and it really says that neither should believers be that way. God is not a respector of persons, he Loves us all.
Notice James 2:1;" My bretheren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an Aittitude of " Personal Favoritism". Vs.9;"But if you show Partiality you are committing sin." Showing partiality means that you think Salvation is only for an elite group. Read vs.13 of same chapter, latter part of verse;" Mercy Triumphs over Judgement." And this is how God really is, his Mercy will deal with sinful humanity, not his Judgement. Thats why Jesus said he didnot come to judge the world, but to save it. Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel:-6
Welcome. Some interesting thinking going on.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Welcome. Some interesting thinking going on.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
I was in a group this AM discussing "I am the way . . ."
Jesus has been called many things: lamb of God, light of the world etc. Should I take that literally than Mary had a little lamb or Jesus is a flaming candle and a bright one at that. Perhaps he is behind a Fresnel lens as in a lighthouse. These are metaphors. When John's Jesus says "I am the way . . ." he is using a metaphor.
Jesus has clearly shown us the way (path) through justice, kindness and walking humbly with God. This idea of reading the Bible literally is the illegitimate child of the reformation. It was not the intent of the writers. The early church knew this.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Jesus has been called many things: lamb of God, light of the world etc. Should I take that literally than Mary had a little lamb or Jesus is a flaming candle and a bright one at that. Perhaps he is behind a Fresnel lens as in a lighthouse. These are metaphors. When John's Jesus says "I am the way . . ." he is using a metaphor.
Jesus has clearly shown us the way (path) through justice, kindness and walking humbly with God. This idea of reading the Bible literally is the illegitimate child of the reformation. It was not the intent of the writers. The early church knew this.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
The shifting of gears from seeing most of humanity suffering in some eternal pain amphlifier to seeing the actual glorious Grace of God, is really a journey from misery to Love, as you get closer to seeing how God really is. As I read how Jesus was sent by his Father to be the Savior of the World, ( and in the bible, the World always means unbelievers), I ran across John 17:4, where Jesus himself stated;" I glorified thee on earth, having Accomplished the Work which thou has given me to do." Now this is what Jesus said, its not what Christians are saying, because Christians believe in Salvation by the choice of the individual.
Let me go over what the bible says again. In 1John 4:14 Jesus was sent by his Father to be the Savior of the " World." In John 17:4 Jesus said that he accomplished the mission that his Father sent him on. The conclusion here is that Jesus has saved the whole World, not just believers. Now this is what the bible says. Not me, not some weird book or far out speculation, its right here in the bible. Just that simple.
The only chance that humanity had at being condemned was through Sin, but in Hebrews 9:26, it says that Jesus sacrifice " Put sin away." So people who don't believe this, must find a way to bring humanitys sin back, so that they can condemn humanity to this lava lake called hell. So the unbelievers of the Salvation of all, must turn the Gospel of Grace, to somethingelse that does not cover all the sins of men, just some of them. So the concept of free will was invented, to excuse God from saving everyone, and giving religion a reason to limit salvation to only those who self will it to be accepted by their decision. And I want to go into that. Peace.
Let me go over what the bible says again. In 1John 4:14 Jesus was sent by his Father to be the Savior of the " World." In John 17:4 Jesus said that he accomplished the mission that his Father sent him on. The conclusion here is that Jesus has saved the whole World, not just believers. Now this is what the bible says. Not me, not some weird book or far out speculation, its right here in the bible. Just that simple.
The only chance that humanity had at being condemned was through Sin, but in Hebrews 9:26, it says that Jesus sacrifice " Put sin away." So people who don't believe this, must find a way to bring humanitys sin back, so that they can condemn humanity to this lava lake called hell. So the unbelievers of the Salvation of all, must turn the Gospel of Grace, to somethingelse that does not cover all the sins of men, just some of them. So the concept of free will was invented, to excuse God from saving everyone, and giving religion a reason to limit salvation to only those who self will it to be accepted by their decision. And I want to go into that. Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel:-6
I must disagree with your comment about the "world" meaning unbelievers. The Greek NT uses the term "kosmos" in John 3:16. According to the Greek English Lexicon by Liddell and Scott kosmos=world or universe. Another lexicon lists it as the material universe.
Too often people read John 3:16 and ignore the first part dwell on the second. God loved and loves the world, the created physical universe and all that it contains.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I must disagree with your comment about the "world" meaning unbelievers. The Greek NT uses the term "kosmos" in John 3:16. According to the Greek English Lexicon by Liddell and Scott kosmos=world or universe. Another lexicon lists it as the material universe.
Too often people read John 3:16 and ignore the first part dwell on the second. God loved and loves the world, the created physical universe and all that it contains.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Ted;841389 wrote: Mickiel:-6
I must disagree with your comment about the "world" meaning unbelievers. The Greek NT uses the term "kosmos" in John 3:16. According to the Greek English Lexicon by Liddell and Scott kosmos=world or universe. Another lexicon lists it as the material universe.
Too often people read John 3:16 and ignore the first part dwell on the second. God loved and loves the world, the created physical universe and all that it contains.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Well I can go with that to, because it still includes all humans who live on the planet earth . Unless for some reason, you want to exclude someone from salvation.
Peace.
I must disagree with your comment about the "world" meaning unbelievers. The Greek NT uses the term "kosmos" in John 3:16. According to the Greek English Lexicon by Liddell and Scott kosmos=world or universe. Another lexicon lists it as the material universe.
Too often people read John 3:16 and ignore the first part dwell on the second. God loved and loves the world, the created physical universe and all that it contains.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Well I can go with that to, because it still includes all humans who live on the planet earth . Unless for some reason, you want to exclude someone from salvation.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
I should add that none of the words attributed to Jesus in the Gospel according to John can be traced back to the historical Jesus. What we are reading in this gospel are the words of the early church. These express what the early church had come to believe about Jesus.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel:-6
I am not an exclusivist in any way. No, I'm not trying to exclude anyone.
Shalom
Ted
I am not an exclusivist in any way. No, I'm not trying to exclude anyone.
Shalom
Ted
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Ted;841397 wrote: Mickiel:-6
I am not an exclusivist in any way. No, I'm not trying to exclude anyone.
Shalom
Ted
Well I have consider the many forms and mannerisms that the desire to exclude people from salvation can rear its ugly head. The Christian doctrine of Eternal hell punishment is the worst one I have seen. People get these beliefs inside of their heads and hearts, and one of the first reactions that they have, is to start limiting whoelse can have what they have just got. Simular to a child who gets hold of some sweet candy, and instead of sharing it, they immediately start thinking about who cannot have any, and then often takes pride in the fact that they have it, and the others do not. It is not uncanny to see people do this with their interpitation of Salvation.
In Matt.23:13, Jesus confronted people who were like this with "their salvation";" But woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites, because you Shut off the Kingdom from men." This mentality seeks to find ways and means to limit Gods Salvation, so that they can lift themselves up, fill up this hell lava lake, and keep Salvation to an exclusive righteous club.
Peace.
I am not an exclusivist in any way. No, I'm not trying to exclude anyone.
Shalom
Ted
Well I have consider the many forms and mannerisms that the desire to exclude people from salvation can rear its ugly head. The Christian doctrine of Eternal hell punishment is the worst one I have seen. People get these beliefs inside of their heads and hearts, and one of the first reactions that they have, is to start limiting whoelse can have what they have just got. Simular to a child who gets hold of some sweet candy, and instead of sharing it, they immediately start thinking about who cannot have any, and then often takes pride in the fact that they have it, and the others do not. It is not uncanny to see people do this with their interpitation of Salvation.
In Matt.23:13, Jesus confronted people who were like this with "their salvation";" But woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites, because you Shut off the Kingdom from men." This mentality seeks to find ways and means to limit Gods Salvation, so that they can lift themselves up, fill up this hell lava lake, and keep Salvation to an exclusive righteous club.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
A simular thing that you have experienced happen to this man named Moses and Abraham. God promised them both that their desendants will inherit things also, one of which was Salvation. He told Abraham that ALL the remnants of his seed will be blessed, Gen.22:18. Now I am sure many have and will reject that blessing, but I am considering Gods promise, not mans reaction to that promise, because men are foolish and not to be trusted, but God is not like men. Hes going to keep his promises.
In Isaiah 45: 22-25, this great God of the bible records a moment that I think he went beyond his Promise, he literally Swore an oath to himself. " I have sworn by myself, the word has gone forth from my mouth in Righteousness, and willnot turn back. That to me every knee will bow, every tounge will swear alligence to me. In vs. 25 " In the Lord ALL the offspring of Israel will be justified and will glory. Now I am sure many of those offspring, like yourself and simular to your land case, willnot be willing to accept this inheritance, but God has already declared that to him EVERY knee will bow, EVERY mouth will confess and swear alligence to him. Thats conversion, bowing and swearing alligence.
In these few verses lays the complette destiny of the entire created human race. God has sworn that this will happen, and it willnot return to him incomplette or void. Its a done deal man, nobody can stop this. Its a deal not dependant on the acceptance of each individual, its based SOLEY on God. Peace.
In Isaiah 45: 22-25, this great God of the bible records a moment that I think he went beyond his Promise, he literally Swore an oath to himself. " I have sworn by myself, the word has gone forth from my mouth in Righteousness, and willnot turn back. That to me every knee will bow, every tounge will swear alligence to me. In vs. 25 " In the Lord ALL the offspring of Israel will be justified and will glory. Now I am sure many of those offspring, like yourself and simular to your land case, willnot be willing to accept this inheritance, but God has already declared that to him EVERY knee will bow, EVERY mouth will confess and swear alligence to him. Thats conversion, bowing and swearing alligence.
In these few verses lays the complette destiny of the entire created human race. God has sworn that this will happen, and it willnot return to him incomplette or void. Its a done deal man, nobody can stop this. Its a deal not dependant on the acceptance of each individual, its based SOLEY on God. Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Jester;841878 wrote:
You did not answer my questions, its obvious that even from your misguided belief in salvation for all, Im asking you what your going to do with yours? Will this knowledge change your life? Will it change how you live?
Knowledge is only a thing that could assist in change, real Spiritual change must come from God. The changes in my life came from God, not from knowledge. The changes to come, will come from him, not what I know or don't know. Knowledge is not Salvation, God is. He makes the change, he guides the Life.
Now let me ask you, since you believe that not all men will be saved, what will become of those who are not saved?
Peace.
You did not answer my questions, its obvious that even from your misguided belief in salvation for all, Im asking you what your going to do with yours? Will this knowledge change your life? Will it change how you live?
Knowledge is only a thing that could assist in change, real Spiritual change must come from God. The changes in my life came from God, not from knowledge. The changes to come, will come from him, not what I know or don't know. Knowledge is not Salvation, God is. He makes the change, he guides the Life.
Now let me ask you, since you believe that not all men will be saved, what will become of those who are not saved?
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Jester;841904 wrote: The unsaved will be cast into hell, for all eternity, in the knowledge that they are seperated from God, and yes, everyone of them will know that God is God and each of them will have confessed it and bowed to him tio recieve their just rewards.
So, in essence you have 'accepted' this salvation from God, or are you coming along kicking and fighting?
Well I dissagree with what you believe about God. I don't believe in eternal hell. It does not match the sanity and reason that I see in God. In order for eternal hell punishment to be true, then you are believing that God will do this: First, he must give the poor humans in hell eternal life and prepare them for an existance like none I have never considered to be possible. You are believing that the main purpose of this hell is continual punishing. Since eternity means forever, then you are believing that these humans will be punished for living in sin, lets just say for 100 years of their human lives, give or take a few. Now their punishment will last for 100 billion, 999 trillion, times 888 million, times infinity, and their suffering will not even have begun, because it will last forever. Might I suggest that the punishment does not fit the crime.
Further more your belief demands some reason and sanity to this proposed insanity. In order for humans to survive this terror, God must give them an indestructable body which can endure such horror without wearing down and decomposing. So the body must be virtually indestrctable. It must be able to absorb heat, like the human torch, it must be able to swim in this lava lake, like aquaman, or it must have legs like the incredible hluk, if it must simply stand in this lake. So God must make these humans, " Super humanoid sufferers". He must give them a super brain also, or they'll go insane from this incredible level of torture after, lets say maybe 999 quadrillion years. Also he must give them super tolerance in order to remain conscious and not pass out, why would God torture someone who is unconscious, what fun would that be.
Further more since these poor puny humans, are not now so puny, but a formidable new super creation, I can just imagine that they would get pissed off at God after 12987 trillion billion million years and might try to get out of this torture chamber, so God must post some powerful angels there to stand guard, we wouldn't want any of them getting out now would we. These angels must be just as merciless as you claim God to be for creating this hell. Now we would not want soft hearted angelic guards now would we. Only those kind of Angels who are just as insane as you must think God is.
Peace.
So, in essence you have 'accepted' this salvation from God, or are you coming along kicking and fighting?
Well I dissagree with what you believe about God. I don't believe in eternal hell. It does not match the sanity and reason that I see in God. In order for eternal hell punishment to be true, then you are believing that God will do this: First, he must give the poor humans in hell eternal life and prepare them for an existance like none I have never considered to be possible. You are believing that the main purpose of this hell is continual punishing. Since eternity means forever, then you are believing that these humans will be punished for living in sin, lets just say for 100 years of their human lives, give or take a few. Now their punishment will last for 100 billion, 999 trillion, times 888 million, times infinity, and their suffering will not even have begun, because it will last forever. Might I suggest that the punishment does not fit the crime.
Further more your belief demands some reason and sanity to this proposed insanity. In order for humans to survive this terror, God must give them an indestructable body which can endure such horror without wearing down and decomposing. So the body must be virtually indestrctable. It must be able to absorb heat, like the human torch, it must be able to swim in this lava lake, like aquaman, or it must have legs like the incredible hluk, if it must simply stand in this lake. So God must make these humans, " Super humanoid sufferers". He must give them a super brain also, or they'll go insane from this incredible level of torture after, lets say maybe 999 quadrillion years. Also he must give them super tolerance in order to remain conscious and not pass out, why would God torture someone who is unconscious, what fun would that be.
Further more since these poor puny humans, are not now so puny, but a formidable new super creation, I can just imagine that they would get pissed off at God after 12987 trillion billion million years and might try to get out of this torture chamber, so God must post some powerful angels there to stand guard, we wouldn't want any of them getting out now would we. These angels must be just as merciless as you claim God to be for creating this hell. Now we would not want soft hearted angelic guards now would we. Only those kind of Angels who are just as insane as you must think God is.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel;841551 wrote: This mentality seeks to find ways and means to limit Gods Salvation, so that they can lift themselves up, fill up this hell lava lake, and keep Salvation to an exclusive righteous club.
Peace.
I do not find Christians that try to limit God's Salvation. It is yours as well as mine. True Christians follow the teachings of Christ which is to bring others to a saving knowledge of the gift that He (God) provided for those who chose to accept it! I say look, see what I have, do you want some too, let me freely share with you.
Salvation belongs to everyone, no doubt about it. You have found powerful scriptures that prove that. Jesus paid the price once and for all. When He died on the cross He said "it is finished". He did what He was sent to do.
You have put a lot of deep thought into this topic, giving credit to scriptures that support your convictions. What do you do with scriptures like.
Romans 10:
"9. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
Salvation belongs to eveyone...Thank God!
Not everyone will accept that or believe that, basically refusing their part in salvation.
If you are sentenced to 10 years in prison, or $100,000 fine for some wrong you have done. I go to the court and pay your fine, your debt is paid. You may say "I don't want that" or "I don't want to be commited to you because you did that for me I will not accept it" and you go spend your time or pay your fine. Did I save you?
You talk lightly about this "lava lake". Te lake of fire is in this same bible you have been referencing. What do you say we are "saved" from?
I pray I will not be one of the so-called stereotypical Christians that hoard Salvation I had no part in it. I was just a humble beneficiary.
Bobby
Peace.
I do not find Christians that try to limit God's Salvation. It is yours as well as mine. True Christians follow the teachings of Christ which is to bring others to a saving knowledge of the gift that He (God) provided for those who chose to accept it! I say look, see what I have, do you want some too, let me freely share with you.
Salvation belongs to everyone, no doubt about it. You have found powerful scriptures that prove that. Jesus paid the price once and for all. When He died on the cross He said "it is finished". He did what He was sent to do.
You have put a lot of deep thought into this topic, giving credit to scriptures that support your convictions. What do you do with scriptures like.
Romans 10:
"9. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
Salvation belongs to eveyone...Thank God!
Not everyone will accept that or believe that, basically refusing their part in salvation.
If you are sentenced to 10 years in prison, or $100,000 fine for some wrong you have done. I go to the court and pay your fine, your debt is paid. You may say "I don't want that" or "I don't want to be commited to you because you did that for me I will not accept it" and you go spend your time or pay your fine. Did I save you?
You talk lightly about this "lava lake". Te lake of fire is in this same bible you have been referencing. What do you say we are "saved" from?
I pray I will not be one of the so-called stereotypical Christians that hoard Salvation I had no part in it. I was just a humble beneficiary.
Bobby
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
BHughesNC;841928 wrote: I do not find Christians that try to limit God's Salvation. It is yours as well as mine. True Christians follow the teachings of Christ which is to bring others to a saving knowledge of the gift that He (God) provided for those who chose to accept it! I say look, see what I have, do you want some too, let me freely share with you.
Salvation belongs to everyone, no doubt about it. You have found powerful scriptures that prove that. Jesus paid the price once and for all. When He died on the cross He said "it is finished". He did what He was sent to do.
You have put a lot of deep thought into this topic, giving credit to scriptures that support your convictions. What do you do with scriptures like.
Romans 10:
"9. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
Salvation belongs to eveyone...Thank God!
Not everyone will accept that or believe that, basically refusing their part in salvation.
If you are sentenced to 10 years in prison, or $100,000 fine for some wrong you have done. I go to the court and pay your fine, your debt is paid. You may say "I don't want that" or "I don't want to be commited to you because you did that for me I will not accept it" and you go spend your time or pay your fine. Did I save you?
You talk lightly about this "lava lake". Te lake of fire is in this same bible you have been referencing. What do you say we are "saved" from?
I pray I will not be one of the so-called stereotypical Christians that hoard Salvation I had no part in it. I was just a humble beneficiary.
Bobby
Well again, I have never doubted the conviction or belief in God that some Christians have , I just don't like their view of Salvation. Christians base Salvation on the belief and acceptance of the person, which I think is in error. Salvation is based on a predestined predetermined plan of God and Christ. God wouldnot predetermine a human to be lost. Listen, I have read so much of the bible, it really is a complex book. Christians think that "their" acceptance, " Their" choice and " Their" belief is the reason they are then saved. In this view, its really saying Salvation is " Their Choice." That is in error, they give themselves far too much credit for something God has really done.
For example, according to the bible, the bible now, not Christian interpitation, it is God who gives Salvation, AND the ability and mental sense for the human to even accept it. In Romans 2:4, it is God who leads a human to even want to repent. In John 6:44 Jesus said no one can even come to him unless God Draws them first. In John 3:27 it says no man can receive " Nothing", unless it has been given to him from heaven. That includes receiving Christ himself, its still a given, not a human acceptance. People are shut up into a mental framework of unbelief and disobedience, unless and until God releases them, Romans 11:32. Only God can cuase growth in a human, 1Corinth. 3:6, no matter who plants the gospel in this world. Its all on God, not our acceptance, our acceptance, or our Adequacy still comes from God, 2 Corinth. 3:5. Our Adequacy, or the human ability to even accept God, even that still comes from God.
2 Corinth.5:14, the Love of Christ " Controls us." It is this that leads to belief in him. In Philip. 1:29;" For to you it has been " Granted" for Christ sake, not only to believe in him, but to suffer for him. Listen, even belief in God must be granted by him, we believe because, and only because, it was granted to us as a gift, and that gift was not of " Ourselves", meaning our own decision and self willed acceptance, it was really a gift from God, he wanted you to be a believer. Notice Phil. 2:13;" For it is God who is at work in you, BOTH to will and to work for his good pleasure. God manipulates even the human will to both believe and accept him.
Now I admit that it may seem like I am only using certain bible scriptures to prove a point, but no, no, I came to my belief from the bible as a whole. God wouldnot condemn a human to hell, when he is the one responsible for opening the human to accept and believe in him in the first place. The firstfruits , are firstfruits, or the first wave of the converted, not because of themselves, but because of GOD! And I want to go into that, with more scriptures. Peace.
Salvation belongs to everyone, no doubt about it. You have found powerful scriptures that prove that. Jesus paid the price once and for all. When He died on the cross He said "it is finished". He did what He was sent to do.
You have put a lot of deep thought into this topic, giving credit to scriptures that support your convictions. What do you do with scriptures like.
Romans 10:
"9. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
Salvation belongs to eveyone...Thank God!
Not everyone will accept that or believe that, basically refusing their part in salvation.
If you are sentenced to 10 years in prison, or $100,000 fine for some wrong you have done. I go to the court and pay your fine, your debt is paid. You may say "I don't want that" or "I don't want to be commited to you because you did that for me I will not accept it" and you go spend your time or pay your fine. Did I save you?
You talk lightly about this "lava lake". Te lake of fire is in this same bible you have been referencing. What do you say we are "saved" from?
I pray I will not be one of the so-called stereotypical Christians that hoard Salvation I had no part in it. I was just a humble beneficiary.
Bobby
Well again, I have never doubted the conviction or belief in God that some Christians have , I just don't like their view of Salvation. Christians base Salvation on the belief and acceptance of the person, which I think is in error. Salvation is based on a predestined predetermined plan of God and Christ. God wouldnot predetermine a human to be lost. Listen, I have read so much of the bible, it really is a complex book. Christians think that "their" acceptance, " Their" choice and " Their" belief is the reason they are then saved. In this view, its really saying Salvation is " Their Choice." That is in error, they give themselves far too much credit for something God has really done.
For example, according to the bible, the bible now, not Christian interpitation, it is God who gives Salvation, AND the ability and mental sense for the human to even accept it. In Romans 2:4, it is God who leads a human to even want to repent. In John 6:44 Jesus said no one can even come to him unless God Draws them first. In John 3:27 it says no man can receive " Nothing", unless it has been given to him from heaven. That includes receiving Christ himself, its still a given, not a human acceptance. People are shut up into a mental framework of unbelief and disobedience, unless and until God releases them, Romans 11:32. Only God can cuase growth in a human, 1Corinth. 3:6, no matter who plants the gospel in this world. Its all on God, not our acceptance, our acceptance, or our Adequacy still comes from God, 2 Corinth. 3:5. Our Adequacy, or the human ability to even accept God, even that still comes from God.
2 Corinth.5:14, the Love of Christ " Controls us." It is this that leads to belief in him. In Philip. 1:29;" For to you it has been " Granted" for Christ sake, not only to believe in him, but to suffer for him. Listen, even belief in God must be granted by him, we believe because, and only because, it was granted to us as a gift, and that gift was not of " Ourselves", meaning our own decision and self willed acceptance, it was really a gift from God, he wanted you to be a believer. Notice Phil. 2:13;" For it is God who is at work in you, BOTH to will and to work for his good pleasure. God manipulates even the human will to both believe and accept him.
Now I admit that it may seem like I am only using certain bible scriptures to prove a point, but no, no, I came to my belief from the bible as a whole. God wouldnot condemn a human to hell, when he is the one responsible for opening the human to accept and believe in him in the first place. The firstfruits , are firstfruits, or the first wave of the converted, not because of themselves, but because of GOD! And I want to go into that, with more scriptures. Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Romans 10
13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15. And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Bobby
13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15. And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Bobby
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Wow! What an interesting topic. I don't agree with all that Mickiel says but he does present some interesting thoughts from the Bible. It is interesting that some would accuse him of picking and choosing but they do likewise in ignoring the points he makes.
I happen to agree strongly with Mickiel's comment that some Christians try to tell God what He must do. I've seen it. I've been there and done that and I was wrong. Judgment belongs to God alone and S/He alone decides on the final judgment. It is not my place nor anyone else's to say that this person or that person is damned. That is placing one's self in God's role and is wrong.
What I do see is a complete misunderstanding of the nature of the sacred scriptures. Jester says we must go back to look at the original and the meanings of the words and the culture etc. and yet denies the importance of the writing style which was specific to the writers of the Bible and extremely important to its understanding. Here is another case of picking and choosing. It is a choice to ignore one of the most important aspects of biblical literature. Without it one is leaning on one's own understanding. It's like saying I don't have to accept what the author meant by what he wrote. My interpretation is better. Good luck!
Proof texting is not an appropriate use of the scriptures. It must not only be interpreted according to the writers but within the cosmic context. The OT must be interpreted in light of the NT. If we see in Jesus the fullness of God manifest where do we see this man being so psychologically sick and demented as to wish eternal punishment of the nature that Mickiel beautifully describes? I don't for one moment believe that he is being frivolous with his "lava lake" description.
I will "trust" in the God and Father of Jesus myself.
As an addition to what I've been saying all along about the other great faiths of the world my comments were once again affirmed in our sermon this morning.
A clear reading of Matt. 25 shows that, yes God will divide humanity into the sheep and the goats. Clearly the sheep are those who fed the hungry etc. To add anything else is to add to the scriptures.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I happen to agree strongly with Mickiel's comment that some Christians try to tell God what He must do. I've seen it. I've been there and done that and I was wrong. Judgment belongs to God alone and S/He alone decides on the final judgment. It is not my place nor anyone else's to say that this person or that person is damned. That is placing one's self in God's role and is wrong.
What I do see is a complete misunderstanding of the nature of the sacred scriptures. Jester says we must go back to look at the original and the meanings of the words and the culture etc. and yet denies the importance of the writing style which was specific to the writers of the Bible and extremely important to its understanding. Here is another case of picking and choosing. It is a choice to ignore one of the most important aspects of biblical literature. Without it one is leaning on one's own understanding. It's like saying I don't have to accept what the author meant by what he wrote. My interpretation is better. Good luck!
Proof texting is not an appropriate use of the scriptures. It must not only be interpreted according to the writers but within the cosmic context. The OT must be interpreted in light of the NT. If we see in Jesus the fullness of God manifest where do we see this man being so psychologically sick and demented as to wish eternal punishment of the nature that Mickiel beautifully describes? I don't for one moment believe that he is being frivolous with his "lava lake" description.
I will "trust" in the God and Father of Jesus myself.
As an addition to what I've been saying all along about the other great faiths of the world my comments were once again affirmed in our sermon this morning.
A clear reading of Matt. 25 shows that, yes God will divide humanity into the sheep and the goats. Clearly the sheep are those who fed the hungry etc. To add anything else is to add to the scriptures.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Ted;842462 wrote:
A clear reading of Matt. 25 shows that, yes God will divide humanity into the sheep and the goats. Clearly the sheep are those who fed the hungry etc. To add anything else is to add to the scriptures.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Well everywhere I have looked at Scriptures, humans are never pictured as " Goats", in the bible Goats are symbolic of demons, not humans. When Jesus serperates the sheep from the Goats, none of the Goats are human. In Matt 25:41 it even clearly states that this " Lava Lake" has been " Prepared for the devil and his angels", not for humans. Peace.
A clear reading of Matt. 25 shows that, yes God will divide humanity into the sheep and the goats. Clearly the sheep are those who fed the hungry etc. To add anything else is to add to the scriptures.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Well everywhere I have looked at Scriptures, humans are never pictured as " Goats", in the bible Goats are symbolic of demons, not humans. When Jesus serperates the sheep from the Goats, none of the Goats are human. In Matt 25:41 it even clearly states that this " Lava Lake" has been " Prepared for the devil and his angels", not for humans. Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in there at:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
This scripture makes it clear to me that Salvation is available to everyone, but will not be chosen by all. Especially vs 21
God Bless All
Bobby
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in there at:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
This scripture makes it clear to me that Salvation is available to everyone, but will not be chosen by all. Especially vs 21
God Bless All
Bobby
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Jester;843187 wrote:
Please list all the verses you can find where 'Goats' are referred to as 'Demons'.
More to come.
I couldnot find any, I concede the point, I was wrong about Goats representing demons. But I speculate that they do, I suspect it to be true. But there has got to be an explination for these eternal fire verses where humans are thrown in. I can't explain them all now, but one day I will be able too. In Matt. 20:23 Jesus told his disciples that he couldnot put people on his right or left side, that his Father has already prepared that. That was speaking of Heavenly positions, so in my view those placed on Jesus left side , they have been preordained by God to be there also. I will NEVER, never believe that God preordained humans to be dammed, NEVER!
Although I cannot explain it all, I just know that those humans tossed into that lake of fire, will somehow come out made whole. And I'll show why. Peace.
Please list all the verses you can find where 'Goats' are referred to as 'Demons'.
More to come.
I couldnot find any, I concede the point, I was wrong about Goats representing demons. But I speculate that they do, I suspect it to be true. But there has got to be an explination for these eternal fire verses where humans are thrown in. I can't explain them all now, but one day I will be able too. In Matt. 20:23 Jesus told his disciples that he couldnot put people on his right or left side, that his Father has already prepared that. That was speaking of Heavenly positions, so in my view those placed on Jesus left side , they have been preordained by God to be there also. I will NEVER, never believe that God preordained humans to be dammed, NEVER!
Although I cannot explain it all, I just know that those humans tossed into that lake of fire, will somehow come out made whole. And I'll show why. Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
I'm okay with what God is doing with my mind, and hold no need to rush what I cannot. I just don't let humans in my head.
Peace.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Jester;843329 wrote: Good, then ask of God to be in your head, ask for the Mind of Christ!
I am not against your need to advise and instruct me, its just that I already have a Spirit that does that for me. That need is filled already, that job already taken. I am not suggesting that I have the Holy Spirit, I do not, but it does teach me from time to time when it comes, so I have no need for the instructions of men.
I have learned not to trust that, but I have also learned to admit when I am wrong.
Peace.
I am not against your need to advise and instruct me, its just that I already have a Spirit that does that for me. That need is filled already, that job already taken. I am not suggesting that I have the Holy Spirit, I do not, but it does teach me from time to time when it comes, so I have no need for the instructions of men.
I have learned not to trust that, but I have also learned to admit when I am wrong.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
rjwould;843569 wrote: Mickiel, I think you are one of the most saintliest people I have ever come across.
I know I haven't heard you sneeze, but God Bless you anyway.
Well thank you rjwould, but I assure, I am no Saint. No I am just a sinner in need of Salvation and understanding, and I have not progressed beyond that, so I search the Scriptures for both. Yet all these " Eternal Fire verses" trip me up, they cause my understanding to stumble . I have asked God for clarification of them, but have not received any that is sufficent enough to me, and as you can see, to others also. I am always tempted to " Explain them away and gloss over them", which is the same response that Christians take when confronted with obvious biblical references to the Salvation of all, just explain them away.
Its as if a giant wall was put in place, to actually " Cause the stumbling", a rock of offense, so to speak. In Isaiah 8:14, this is actually confirmed;" Then he shall become a sanctuary; but to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over." And you know RJ, my experience with the bible has been exactly that. Its as if at times I can use it as a weapon and just strike at the deception in this world, but it is as if it is a two-edged sword, it can correct you or others, but it can also strike back at you and cause you to stumble.
So I experience a contridiction, a struggle of sorts that shows me I am inadequate and in need of more from God.
Peace.
I know I haven't heard you sneeze, but God Bless you anyway.
Well thank you rjwould, but I assure, I am no Saint. No I am just a sinner in need of Salvation and understanding, and I have not progressed beyond that, so I search the Scriptures for both. Yet all these " Eternal Fire verses" trip me up, they cause my understanding to stumble . I have asked God for clarification of them, but have not received any that is sufficent enough to me, and as you can see, to others also. I am always tempted to " Explain them away and gloss over them", which is the same response that Christians take when confronted with obvious biblical references to the Salvation of all, just explain them away.
Its as if a giant wall was put in place, to actually " Cause the stumbling", a rock of offense, so to speak. In Isaiah 8:14, this is actually confirmed;" Then he shall become a sanctuary; but to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over." And you know RJ, my experience with the bible has been exactly that. Its as if at times I can use it as a weapon and just strike at the deception in this world, but it is as if it is a two-edged sword, it can correct you or others, but it can also strike back at you and cause you to stumble.
So I experience a contridiction, a struggle of sorts that shows me I am inadequate and in need of more from God.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
rjwould;843689 wrote: Well jester thinks you need more from jester. But jester thinks gods reside within him at all times and anyone who disagrees with him is....whatever....
I found during my Christian daze that the confusion I was experiencing was due to me trying to force feed something that made no sense through my ability to know better. When you attempt to usurp your own common sense, you feel stupid and speak like the stupid person you feel like.
My advise to you is to just let you lead you, rather than permitting some fairy tail lead you.
No offense intended...:-6
Well I understand Jester somewhat, there is a way that seems right to a man, and some men desire others to see that way. I understand that. But really the way of man is not in himself, self can only take you so far. Even still, if your the kind of person who needs to attach yourself to others, they only can take you as far as they have gone and no further. I walk alone. I am not introverted, but when it comes to the bible, I allow no one but me and God in that space, I want that to stay that way, I don't want that to be interfeared with.
And I have learned that God does things in his own way at its own time. Which can be rather frustrating, because I want it all now. But that ain't happening, God cannot be manipulated. Some people feel as if they are so righteous and Spiritual, that their goodness leaves God no choice other than to respond to them right away and give everything requested. That is an illusion. Some people are so fixated with their righteousness, they literally demand things from God. " Now God I expect you to do this and that, and do it " Right Now", they say in their prayers.
Such confidence escapes me, sometimes I am so ashamed of myself, I find it hard to even pray to God. I know I am not what I ought to be, neither am I what I am going to be, but I do thank God I am not what I used to be. Peace.
I found during my Christian daze that the confusion I was experiencing was due to me trying to force feed something that made no sense through my ability to know better. When you attempt to usurp your own common sense, you feel stupid and speak like the stupid person you feel like.
My advise to you is to just let you lead you, rather than permitting some fairy tail lead you.
No offense intended...:-6
Well I understand Jester somewhat, there is a way that seems right to a man, and some men desire others to see that way. I understand that. But really the way of man is not in himself, self can only take you so far. Even still, if your the kind of person who needs to attach yourself to others, they only can take you as far as they have gone and no further. I walk alone. I am not introverted, but when it comes to the bible, I allow no one but me and God in that space, I want that to stay that way, I don't want that to be interfeared with.
And I have learned that God does things in his own way at its own time. Which can be rather frustrating, because I want it all now. But that ain't happening, God cannot be manipulated. Some people feel as if they are so righteous and Spiritual, that their goodness leaves God no choice other than to respond to them right away and give everything requested. That is an illusion. Some people are so fixated with their righteousness, they literally demand things from God. " Now God I expect you to do this and that, and do it " Right Now", they say in their prayers.
Such confidence escapes me, sometimes I am so ashamed of myself, I find it hard to even pray to God. I know I am not what I ought to be, neither am I what I am going to be, but I do thank God I am not what I used to be. Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Jester;844258 wrote:
But, when I come across things like what you posted that I know are a wrong use of the scripture, and you are seemingly asking what others think by posting it in a forum for discussion, that its fair game to then say on of what I know about.
No offense was intended, and I hope you take it that way.
I am not easily offended, and have not been offended by you or anyone here. The bible has shifted many gears in my mind, and it has shifted me away from the beliefs of Christianity, Catholicism, Islam, Jehovahs witnesses, Orthodox, Presbitrian, all of them. I am no longer interested in any of those views, including Atheism, I am attracted to none of them, but offended by none of them. I walk alone in my views and need the support of none, nor am I on a cursade to discredit any of them. Its just that none of those are for me.
I have dated many, many women, married two of them along the way, but none of them were for me. I tried them, enjoyed literally all of them, but they were just not for me. I may yet meet another one, but I will only stay with her if she is for me, because I have come to a point in life where I am content with being alone. I used to think that if I didnot have a woman, I would burst at the seems and explode. Now , at 53, I am content with either way, with or without. I have left religion, and am content without.
I am a very picky man, although I am aware of several women who want me, I do not feel as they do. So I do not lead them on. What is for you, is for you, what is not, simply is not. I view the words of other people in like manner. You have already said some things that were for me, and things that were not. I can learn from anyone, no matter what kind of aittitude or head they have, but I don't need that, yet its good to run into it on occasion.
I have no quarrel with you at all.
Peace.
But, when I come across things like what you posted that I know are a wrong use of the scripture, and you are seemingly asking what others think by posting it in a forum for discussion, that its fair game to then say on of what I know about.
No offense was intended, and I hope you take it that way.
I am not easily offended, and have not been offended by you or anyone here. The bible has shifted many gears in my mind, and it has shifted me away from the beliefs of Christianity, Catholicism, Islam, Jehovahs witnesses, Orthodox, Presbitrian, all of them. I am no longer interested in any of those views, including Atheism, I am attracted to none of them, but offended by none of them. I walk alone in my views and need the support of none, nor am I on a cursade to discredit any of them. Its just that none of those are for me.
I have dated many, many women, married two of them along the way, but none of them were for me. I tried them, enjoyed literally all of them, but they were just not for me. I may yet meet another one, but I will only stay with her if she is for me, because I have come to a point in life where I am content with being alone. I used to think that if I didnot have a woman, I would burst at the seems and explode. Now , at 53, I am content with either way, with or without. I have left religion, and am content without.
I am a very picky man, although I am aware of several women who want me, I do not feel as they do. So I do not lead them on. What is for you, is for you, what is not, simply is not. I view the words of other people in like manner. You have already said some things that were for me, and things that were not. I can learn from anyone, no matter what kind of aittitude or head they have, but I don't need that, yet its good to run into it on occasion.
I have no quarrel with you at all.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
There exist a certain reality in life that we all just have to face sooner or later. That being what is for us, and what is not. Certain religions are for certain people. Certain foods are for certain people. Some have reached a stage where they can eat anything, having no predjudice. Some have reached a stage that they have no use for religion, I am one of those persons. It is in error to assume that because a person has no use for Religion that they are then Atheist. I am not Atheist, nor a church goer, but I believe in God with all my heart. It IS my life and one that I am content with. I have tried churchs, they are not for me. That is not the path meant for me.
Often the road of our lives has to be walked in a manner that even shocks yourself. The truth in the bible has been like that to me, it has shifted much, much thought in my mind. And it is nowhere near a settled issue. What is really, really going on, is beyond me to comprehend, but I know we have not got this thing right. There is a whole lot of deception going on, and has been for some time. In Rev. 12:9, it says of this being, or thing satan, whatever this thing is, it has deceived " The Whole World", and I don't think anyone is excluded from that deception. And I know that it has deceived me. My only chance in dealing with this thing, is to come to know the God that created it, and why he created it in the first place. Its done a whole lot of damage in deception.
Peace.
Often the road of our lives has to be walked in a manner that even shocks yourself. The truth in the bible has been like that to me, it has shifted much, much thought in my mind. And it is nowhere near a settled issue. What is really, really going on, is beyond me to comprehend, but I know we have not got this thing right. There is a whole lot of deception going on, and has been for some time. In Rev. 12:9, it says of this being, or thing satan, whatever this thing is, it has deceived " The Whole World", and I don't think anyone is excluded from that deception. And I know that it has deceived me. My only chance in dealing with this thing, is to come to know the God that created it, and why he created it in the first place. Its done a whole lot of damage in deception.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
As I examine God and the Bible, I see a " Motive" in Gods desires, which is not common to see. In 1 Tim.2:3-4, It is both Good and " Acceptable" to God for him to Desire for all humans to be saved and to come to the Knowledge of the Truth. I then see absolutely nothing wrong with me doing the same thing that he does. In 2Pet.3:9 it says that God has not wished that any would perish but for All to come to repentance.
Gods Wishes or his Desire is Motive. Motive implys intent and direction of thought. God is not nuetral in his look at Salvation, or indifferent toward it, this is his expressed desire. In Job 23:13 it says that he gets what he desires. God is then proactive in his will, I don't see this as a submission of him to human will and desire. Gods preference is for the Salvation of all, this is what prompts his motivation. Motive is intent and purpose, it inspires him to do what he wants to do. I don't underestimate this great being, his impulse is not just an after thought, but a great deal of Power is behing his purposeful intent.
And I want to go into that. Peace.
Gods Wishes or his Desire is Motive. Motive implys intent and direction of thought. God is not nuetral in his look at Salvation, or indifferent toward it, this is his expressed desire. In Job 23:13 it says that he gets what he desires. God is then proactive in his will, I don't see this as a submission of him to human will and desire. Gods preference is for the Salvation of all, this is what prompts his motivation. Motive is intent and purpose, it inspires him to do what he wants to do. I don't underestimate this great being, his impulse is not just an after thought, but a great deal of Power is behing his purposeful intent.
And I want to go into that. Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
If it was God's intent that all would gain Salvation, which is His heart's desire, then the sending of Christ to be persecuted..to die on a rugged cruel cross, to suffer death, hell and the grave, to be resurrected so that we could have everlasting life....which IS the gospel, Good News, theme of the bible...was all for nought..! I just cannot buy it.
If you do not believe this account then my bible tells me you are not one of His!
May His Holy Spirit reveal this to you through your reading, do not take my word for it, I am nobody, just a sinner saved by Grace. The Holy Spirit can in fact reveal it to you.
Blessings
Bobby
If you do not believe this account then my bible tells me you are not one of His!
May His Holy Spirit reveal this to you through your reading, do not take my word for it, I am nobody, just a sinner saved by Grace. The Holy Spirit can in fact reveal it to you.
Blessings
Bobby
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
[QUOTE=BHughesNC;
If you do not believe this account then my bible tells me you are not one of His! Quote
Well I am not one of his, and have never claimed to be as such. And if I am correct, then the next logical Christian reasoning that I actually have learned to expect from Christians, is to be included in the condemnation of me for not being one of his. I will accept that condemnation, " If" it came from God, I consider the source from which the condemnation comes from, judgement from anyonelse is meaningless to me.
I believe in God enough to accept his judgement of me when my time comes, there is no way I would argue with God. No, not me. God knows I both respect and believe in his judgement, and he knows that I do not respect and believe in Christian judgement as well. David was once asked and given the choice to be judged by man or by God, he choose Gods judgement, rather than be left in the hands of man. I agree with Davids wisdom on that.
I rather like Jesus too. Just the way the bible talks about him. In Isaiah 53:6;" All we like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; But the Lord has caused the iniquity of " Us All" to fall on him." I like that verse, its hope, its meaning, its Forgiveness and Grace. Its salvationus implications being made on ALL, its predestined glorified unmerited pardon. I figure if Jesus has taken on all of humanitys sin, then no Christian can make me bear my sin alone and condemn me. Verse 11 confirms this;" By HIS Knowledge the Righteous one, my servant, will JUSTIFY THE MANY, as he will bear their sins." Oh good greif, all of humanity is made righteous by what Jesus knows, not what we know. We are saved by what Jesus did, not what we do.
And I want to go into that. Peace.
If you do not believe this account then my bible tells me you are not one of His! Quote
Well I am not one of his, and have never claimed to be as such. And if I am correct, then the next logical Christian reasoning that I actually have learned to expect from Christians, is to be included in the condemnation of me for not being one of his. I will accept that condemnation, " If" it came from God, I consider the source from which the condemnation comes from, judgement from anyonelse is meaningless to me.
I believe in God enough to accept his judgement of me when my time comes, there is no way I would argue with God. No, not me. God knows I both respect and believe in his judgement, and he knows that I do not respect and believe in Christian judgement as well. David was once asked and given the choice to be judged by man or by God, he choose Gods judgement, rather than be left in the hands of man. I agree with Davids wisdom on that.
I rather like Jesus too. Just the way the bible talks about him. In Isaiah 53:6;" All we like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; But the Lord has caused the iniquity of " Us All" to fall on him." I like that verse, its hope, its meaning, its Forgiveness and Grace. Its salvationus implications being made on ALL, its predestined glorified unmerited pardon. I figure if Jesus has taken on all of humanitys sin, then no Christian can make me bear my sin alone and condemn me. Verse 11 confirms this;" By HIS Knowledge the Righteous one, my servant, will JUSTIFY THE MANY, as he will bear their sins." Oh good greif, all of humanity is made righteous by what Jesus knows, not what we know. We are saved by what Jesus did, not what we do.
And I want to go into that. Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel:-6
Marcus Borg and other theologians have come to the conclusion that what really counts is that we live in a developing, transforming relationship with God. Faith is not about right belief but about trust in God.
I completely agree with your comment on Christians judging others.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Marcus Borg and other theologians have come to the conclusion that what really counts is that we live in a developing, transforming relationship with God. Faith is not about right belief but about trust in God.
I completely agree with your comment on Christians judging others.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Ted;846512 wrote: Mickiel:-6
Marcus Borg and other theologians have come to the conclusion that what really counts is that we live in a developing, transforming relationship with God. Faith is not about right belief but about trust in God.
I completely agree with your comment on Christians judging others.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Well yes, I don't particulary like most Christians aittitudes toward Salvation, not the personality of the individuals because that may be fine, but its just their view of many things in the Bible that I dislike. Jesus once said that the Kingdom of God is like a man who cast seed on the soil; he then goes to bed at night and gets up by day, the seed sprouts up and grows- how, he himself does not Know. Mark 4:27. I don't think most people know how Salvation will grow, but it will fill up Heaven with humans. John said in his Revelation shown to him on the Isle of Patamos that he saw a number that no human could number, there with God in Heaven.
I view God as a being who deals out destiny itself, and 1Thess. 5:9 states very clearly that God has NOT destined us for wrath, but for the obtaining of Salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord. Its not really about the right or wrong belief or what culture or race you are, what its really about is expressed in Colosians 3:11;" A " Renewal" in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, ( Christian or Atheist) barbarian , Scythian, Slave or Freeman, Christ is All in All." This is the true destiny of humanity, For Christ to be in us All. Selfishness rears its ugly head in humanity when differing groups seek to claim that Christ is only destined to be in them, and they really believe thats how God has planned it.
This Salvation was made possible by the Great Jesus, notice what he did in Colossians 2:14;" And when you were dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, ( which just means unbelief ) He made you alive together WITH HIM, having Forgiven US ALL of our transgressions." He did this while humans were YET in their sins and unbelief, still sinning and rejecting him. Vs. 14;" Having CANCELED out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and he has TAKEN it OUT of the WAY! Having nailed it to the cross." So you see I don't have to worry about Christians telling me that the Bible does not apply to me, nor their unbelief in the vast reach that Jesus death really has accomplished.
1 Corinth. 15:22 says that in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ that very same ALL shall be made alive. I like that man, I like God. I like what the Bible offers to us All. A person can be a complette unbeliever, yet still active in their sin, rejecting all information that comes at them about God, look at Romans 5:8;" But God demonstrates HIS OWN LOVE toward us, in that WHILE we were YET sinners, Christ died for US." This was done for both believer and unbelievers and it still applys to people who are yet sinning even today. It will apply tommorrow, and next year too. THAT is the Wonderful Grace of God, the Miricle of his Love and Forgiveness, even Christians don't fully comprehend it.
And I want to go into that. Peace.
Marcus Borg and other theologians have come to the conclusion that what really counts is that we live in a developing, transforming relationship with God. Faith is not about right belief but about trust in God.
I completely agree with your comment on Christians judging others.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Well yes, I don't particulary like most Christians aittitudes toward Salvation, not the personality of the individuals because that may be fine, but its just their view of many things in the Bible that I dislike. Jesus once said that the Kingdom of God is like a man who cast seed on the soil; he then goes to bed at night and gets up by day, the seed sprouts up and grows- how, he himself does not Know. Mark 4:27. I don't think most people know how Salvation will grow, but it will fill up Heaven with humans. John said in his Revelation shown to him on the Isle of Patamos that he saw a number that no human could number, there with God in Heaven.
I view God as a being who deals out destiny itself, and 1Thess. 5:9 states very clearly that God has NOT destined us for wrath, but for the obtaining of Salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord. Its not really about the right or wrong belief or what culture or race you are, what its really about is expressed in Colosians 3:11;" A " Renewal" in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, ( Christian or Atheist) barbarian , Scythian, Slave or Freeman, Christ is All in All." This is the true destiny of humanity, For Christ to be in us All. Selfishness rears its ugly head in humanity when differing groups seek to claim that Christ is only destined to be in them, and they really believe thats how God has planned it.
This Salvation was made possible by the Great Jesus, notice what he did in Colossians 2:14;" And when you were dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, ( which just means unbelief ) He made you alive together WITH HIM, having Forgiven US ALL of our transgressions." He did this while humans were YET in their sins and unbelief, still sinning and rejecting him. Vs. 14;" Having CANCELED out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and he has TAKEN it OUT of the WAY! Having nailed it to the cross." So you see I don't have to worry about Christians telling me that the Bible does not apply to me, nor their unbelief in the vast reach that Jesus death really has accomplished.
1 Corinth. 15:22 says that in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ that very same ALL shall be made alive. I like that man, I like God. I like what the Bible offers to us All. A person can be a complette unbeliever, yet still active in their sin, rejecting all information that comes at them about God, look at Romans 5:8;" But God demonstrates HIS OWN LOVE toward us, in that WHILE we were YET sinners, Christ died for US." This was done for both believer and unbelievers and it still applys to people who are yet sinning even today. It will apply tommorrow, and next year too. THAT is the Wonderful Grace of God, the Miricle of his Love and Forgiveness, even Christians don't fully comprehend it.
And I want to go into that. Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
As I consider God, his vast yet unseen pressence, the more I look into him, the more I see that the believers in him, are not really " Like Him." We are shortsighted and vauge on our view of him. God is actually described in 1 Corinth. 13 and Galations 5:22-23, these are actual descriptions of God. His actual characther and ways and means.
God is Love. He is Patient, he is really Kind and Gentle, he is not arrogant. His anger does not last and it is directed at sin, not the sinner. He does not act unbecommingly and is not selfish. This means he does not seek just his own, or those who believe in him. He does not rejoice in unrighteousness. He bears ALL things, believes all things, Hopes all things, and most importantly he NEVER Fails. Look closely at that, he Never Fails. God willnot allow his created humanity to fail, inspite of their confessed unbelief, he willnot allow that, he won't loose even one of us.
I recall reading the Parable of the Lost Sheep. Oh how much like God is this parable reveals. The shephard has I think 100 sheep, then one has strayed away. IThe good Shephard does not take an aittitude of " Well if it wants to follow me, then it will come back." It leaves the 99 and goes out and looks for and GETS that 1 lost sheep. And brings it back. Thats how God really is, and at his decided time he will do this to all of unbelieving humanity. But Christians are not like this, no not really.
Christianity has lost its first Love. Its first Love was the belief in humanity being saved. They have erroded into a " Whosoever Will, let them come" mentality. So now satan has herded the vast majority of mankind into his own deceptive sway. God is not going to put up with that for long, he will come to a point that he will be finished ignoring this sad reality, and he will ignore it no longer. In a great harvest of the World, he will go out and get lost humanity, both dead and Alive. Then humanitywill know, as all of Heaven knows, just how Great this God is. Peace.
God is Love. He is Patient, he is really Kind and Gentle, he is not arrogant. His anger does not last and it is directed at sin, not the sinner. He does not act unbecommingly and is not selfish. This means he does not seek just his own, or those who believe in him. He does not rejoice in unrighteousness. He bears ALL things, believes all things, Hopes all things, and most importantly he NEVER Fails. Look closely at that, he Never Fails. God willnot allow his created humanity to fail, inspite of their confessed unbelief, he willnot allow that, he won't loose even one of us.
I recall reading the Parable of the Lost Sheep. Oh how much like God is this parable reveals. The shephard has I think 100 sheep, then one has strayed away. IThe good Shephard does not take an aittitude of " Well if it wants to follow me, then it will come back." It leaves the 99 and goes out and looks for and GETS that 1 lost sheep. And brings it back. Thats how God really is, and at his decided time he will do this to all of unbelieving humanity. But Christians are not like this, no not really.
Christianity has lost its first Love. Its first Love was the belief in humanity being saved. They have erroded into a " Whosoever Will, let them come" mentality. So now satan has herded the vast majority of mankind into his own deceptive sway. God is not going to put up with that for long, he will come to a point that he will be finished ignoring this sad reality, and he will ignore it no longer. In a great harvest of the World, he will go out and get lost humanity, both dead and Alive. Then humanitywill know, as all of Heaven knows, just how Great this God is. Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
The mentality of God toward sin is complettely misunderstood, and some believers are literally obsessed with the presence of sin in the world. They seem to think God has lost control of it, or conversely they believe in things which " Actually makes room for the victory of sin", and they make a bed in hell for them to sleep in forever. As if God is so passive toward sin, that he leaves the victory over it complettely up to human choice and acceptance.
In Romans 4:7-8 is an interesting passage;"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord willnot take into account." Most noteworthy here is the fact that God will forgive sins, and even further, not even remember them so as to hold them against the sinner. And this verse is speaking about sinners, because only sinners can sin, only lawless people can be lawless, so its not talking about those who do not sin, whoever they are, because many believers look at verses like this and try to section off the meaning behind them, as a " Special coverage that is exclusive only to them, because they believe."
Anyhow, I want to go into just how God views sin, and the foundation he laid that really erases it from humanity. Peace.
In Romans 4:7-8 is an interesting passage;"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord willnot take into account." Most noteworthy here is the fact that God will forgive sins, and even further, not even remember them so as to hold them against the sinner. And this verse is speaking about sinners, because only sinners can sin, only lawless people can be lawless, so its not talking about those who do not sin, whoever they are, because many believers look at verses like this and try to section off the meaning behind them, as a " Special coverage that is exclusive only to them, because they believe."
Anyhow, I want to go into just how God views sin, and the foundation he laid that really erases it from humanity. Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel;846773 wrote: As I consider God, his vast yet unseen pressence, the more I look into him, the more I see that the believers in him, are not really " Like Him." We are shortsighted and vauge on our view of him. God is actually described in 1 Corinth. 13 and Galations 5:22-23, these are actual descriptions of God. His actual characther and ways and means.
God is Love. He is Patient, he is really Kind and Gentle, he is not arrogant. His anger does not last and it is directed at sin, not the sinner. He does not act unbecommingly and is not selfish. This means he does not seek just his own, or those who believe in him. He does not rejoice in unrighteousness. He bears ALL things, believes all things, Hopes all things, and most importantly he NEVER Fails. Look closely at that, he Never Fails. God willnot allow his created humanity to fail, inspite of their confessed unbelief, he willnot allow that, he won't loose even one of us.
I recall reading the Parable of the Lost Sheep. Oh how much like God is this parable reveals. The shephard has I think 100 sheep, then one has strayed away. IThe good Shephard does not take an aittitude of " Well if it wants to follow me, then it will come back." It leaves the 99 and goes out and looks for and GETS that 1 lost sheep. And brings it back. Thats how God really is, and at his decided time he will do this to all of unbelieving humanity. But Christians are not like this, no not really.
God is certainly all those attributes that you mentioned above and more...He is just. Why would He make a covenant with us, even though He fulfilled the covenant with the death of Jesus? If His intent was to save all why make it so ambiguous, why did He not just say that it doesn't matter whether you believe or not, you are going to be saved.
In the paraphrased parable above, why would Jesus say there were 100 sheep instead of all sheep? To me it says there are limitation on how many sheep are really His. I do believe if one of His goes astray He will rescue it. Only His sheep will hear His voice.
"John 10
22. And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. 23. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. 24. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30. I and my Father are one."
Do you believe these Jews will eventually be saved ( become one of His sheep )?
I do not wish to be an elitist, I want ALL to be saved, but I believe God has a plan that has always been in motion and all along part of that plan has been judgment for those who will not believe.
God is Just: therefore must pass judgment on those He said He would judge.
God is Fair: Absolutely no one is precluded from His plan of Salvation
God is Jealous: he wants us to follow no ither shepard but Him.
God is righteous, meaning that God cannot and will not pass over wrong doing
God hates sin - He turned His back on Christ when Christ had the sins of the world on Him.
As you study God's attitude toward sin may you be successful in answering your questions.
This is a very important topic, because if you are right Christ died for nothing.......and to true Christians this is the very rock the foundation of their faith is built upon.
God Bless your studies
Bobby
God is Love. He is Patient, he is really Kind and Gentle, he is not arrogant. His anger does not last and it is directed at sin, not the sinner. He does not act unbecommingly and is not selfish. This means he does not seek just his own, or those who believe in him. He does not rejoice in unrighteousness. He bears ALL things, believes all things, Hopes all things, and most importantly he NEVER Fails. Look closely at that, he Never Fails. God willnot allow his created humanity to fail, inspite of their confessed unbelief, he willnot allow that, he won't loose even one of us.
I recall reading the Parable of the Lost Sheep. Oh how much like God is this parable reveals. The shephard has I think 100 sheep, then one has strayed away. IThe good Shephard does not take an aittitude of " Well if it wants to follow me, then it will come back." It leaves the 99 and goes out and looks for and GETS that 1 lost sheep. And brings it back. Thats how God really is, and at his decided time he will do this to all of unbelieving humanity. But Christians are not like this, no not really.
God is certainly all those attributes that you mentioned above and more...He is just. Why would He make a covenant with us, even though He fulfilled the covenant with the death of Jesus? If His intent was to save all why make it so ambiguous, why did He not just say that it doesn't matter whether you believe or not, you are going to be saved.
In the paraphrased parable above, why would Jesus say there were 100 sheep instead of all sheep? To me it says there are limitation on how many sheep are really His. I do believe if one of His goes astray He will rescue it. Only His sheep will hear His voice.
"John 10
22. And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. 23. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. 24. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30. I and my Father are one."
Do you believe these Jews will eventually be saved ( become one of His sheep )?
I do not wish to be an elitist, I want ALL to be saved, but I believe God has a plan that has always been in motion and all along part of that plan has been judgment for those who will not believe.
God is Just: therefore must pass judgment on those He said He would judge.
God is Fair: Absolutely no one is precluded from His plan of Salvation
God is Jealous: he wants us to follow no ither shepard but Him.
God is righteous, meaning that God cannot and will not pass over wrong doing
God hates sin - He turned His back on Christ when Christ had the sins of the world on Him.
As you study God's attitude toward sin may you be successful in answering your questions.
This is a very important topic, because if you are right Christ died for nothing.......and to true Christians this is the very rock the foundation of their faith is built upon.
God Bless your studies
Bobby
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
BHughesNC;847916 wrote: God is certainly all those attributes that you mentioned above and more...He is just. Why would He make a covenant with us, even though He fulfilled the covenant with the death of Jesus? If His intent was to save all why make it so ambiguous, why did He not just say that it doesn't matter whether you believe or not, you are going to be saved. Quote
Oh do you think that we are supposed to fulfill the Covenant ourselves? Jesus death is the Key to the Covenant, and the Key to Salvation. Humans do not factor into that, they only benefit from it. And God has said that it does not matter if you believe or not, and this post is full of those Scriptures showing how he has said it. You just can't see those scriptures, because they don't mean anything to you.
Quote
In the paraphrased parable above, why would Jesus This is a very important topic, because if you are right Christ died for nothing.......and to true Christians this is the very rock the foundation of their faith is built upon.
God Bless your studies
Bobby
First of all I certainly disagree that the Father turned his back and abandoned Jesus on the cross, which is another Christian teaching that is flawed. Jesus told us he would never forsake us, and we all are sinners, why would God forsake him for taking on our sins? That is nonsense. When Jesus said Father why have you forsaken me, that just was a human reaction comming out of him from taking on something that he never had taken on before. Jesus just " Felt like God had left him", God NEVER has foresaken Jesus, never. He just allowed him to be beaten and killed because that was his will. When Jesus asked God to lift that cup of death from him before it happened, that was just another time his human side was comming out of him. That was just a very hard time for Jesus, he was experiencing things he never had before. God never turned his back on him, he was just going through some very difficult moments in his human life, but he did all that God required of him to do.
God does not turn his back on people who have perfectly done his will. To imply that he turned his back on Jesus for perfectly doing his will, is an insult on Gods integrity, as is much of Christian doctrine.
The Salvation of all does not mean Christ died for nothing, it is made possible BY Christ death. You see Christian teaching seeks to factor Christian behavior into Salvation, thinking their performance earns or results in Salvation. They want to be the reason they are saved. Christians believe that Christ died, but thats not enough, the human must " Accept and Believe in " his death. In this manner they factor themselves into the formula of Salvation, thinking God applys forgiveness only to those who apply their free will to " Join Him."
And thats just flawed reasoning, and I will show why. Peace.
Oh do you think that we are supposed to fulfill the Covenant ourselves? Jesus death is the Key to the Covenant, and the Key to Salvation. Humans do not factor into that, they only benefit from it. And God has said that it does not matter if you believe or not, and this post is full of those Scriptures showing how he has said it. You just can't see those scriptures, because they don't mean anything to you.
Quote
In the paraphrased parable above, why would Jesus This is a very important topic, because if you are right Christ died for nothing.......and to true Christians this is the very rock the foundation of their faith is built upon.
God Bless your studies
Bobby
First of all I certainly disagree that the Father turned his back and abandoned Jesus on the cross, which is another Christian teaching that is flawed. Jesus told us he would never forsake us, and we all are sinners, why would God forsake him for taking on our sins? That is nonsense. When Jesus said Father why have you forsaken me, that just was a human reaction comming out of him from taking on something that he never had taken on before. Jesus just " Felt like God had left him", God NEVER has foresaken Jesus, never. He just allowed him to be beaten and killed because that was his will. When Jesus asked God to lift that cup of death from him before it happened, that was just another time his human side was comming out of him. That was just a very hard time for Jesus, he was experiencing things he never had before. God never turned his back on him, he was just going through some very difficult moments in his human life, but he did all that God required of him to do.
God does not turn his back on people who have perfectly done his will. To imply that he turned his back on Jesus for perfectly doing his will, is an insult on Gods integrity, as is much of Christian doctrine.
The Salvation of all does not mean Christ died for nothing, it is made possible BY Christ death. You see Christian teaching seeks to factor Christian behavior into Salvation, thinking their performance earns or results in Salvation. They want to be the reason they are saved. Christians believe that Christ died, but thats not enough, the human must " Accept and Believe in " his death. In this manner they factor themselves into the formula of Salvation, thinking God applys forgiveness only to those who apply their free will to " Join Him."
And thats just flawed reasoning, and I will show why. Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel;847929 wrote: First of all I certainly disagree that the Father turned his back and abandoned Jesus on the cross, which is another Christian teaching that is flawed. Jesus told us he would never forsake us, and we all are sinners, why would God forsake him for taking on our sins? That is nonsense. When Jesus said Father why have you forsaken me, that just was a human reaction comming out of him from taking on something that he never had taken on before. Jesus just " Felt like God had left him", God NEVER has foresaken Jesus, never. He just allowed him to be beaten and killed because that was his will. When Jesus asked God to lift that cup of death from him before it happened, that was just another time his human side was comming out of him. That was just a very hard time for Jesus, he was experiencing things he never had before. God never turned his back on him, he was just going through some very difficult moments in his human life, but he did all that God required of him to do.
God does not turn his back on people who have perfectly done his will. To imply that he turned his back on Jesus for perfectly doing his will, is an insult on Gods integrity, as is much of Christian doctrine.
The Salvation of all does not mean Christ died for nothing, it is made possible BY Christ death. You see Christian teaching seeks to factor Christian behavior into Salvation, thinking their performance earns or results in Salvation. They want to be the reason they are saved. Christians believe that Christ died, but thats not enough, the human must " Accept and Believe in " his death. In this manner they factor themselves into the formula of Salvation, thinking God applys forgiveness only to those who apply their free will to " Join Him."
And thats just flawed reasoning, and I will show why. Peace.
So you are saying God would let Jesus go through such punishment and torture as He suffered when it was His plan to save everyone anyway. I cannot believe that He would allow His Son to suffer all this for mere creations. Jesus willing suffered these things to fulfill His part of the covenant. So God let Jesus fulfill His own will, but He will not allow us to fulfill ours?
God does not turn his back on people who have perfectly done his will. To imply that he turned his back on Jesus for perfectly doing his will, is an insult on Gods integrity, as is much of Christian doctrine."
I do not believe there was ever a human other than Jesus that could do God's will perfectly. As a believer I do not believe that He will leave me, but I can hinder my fellowship with Him by not doing His will.
The Salvation of all does not mean Christ died for nothing, it is made possible BY Christ death. You see Christian teaching seeks to factor Christian behavior into Salvation, thinking their performance earns or results in Salvation.
You seem to be misunderstanding my initial stand on this issue. I agree totally that the death of Jesus made Salvation "possible" for all. I do not in any way think that Christian behavior can save anyone. We are saved by Grace (undeserved mercy) through FAITH, that not of ourselves lest anyone should boast. Maybe some "Christians" you know want to take partial credit for their salvation, but not this one. Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe.
Bobby
God does not turn his back on people who have perfectly done his will. To imply that he turned his back on Jesus for perfectly doing his will, is an insult on Gods integrity, as is much of Christian doctrine.
The Salvation of all does not mean Christ died for nothing, it is made possible BY Christ death. You see Christian teaching seeks to factor Christian behavior into Salvation, thinking their performance earns or results in Salvation. They want to be the reason they are saved. Christians believe that Christ died, but thats not enough, the human must " Accept and Believe in " his death. In this manner they factor themselves into the formula of Salvation, thinking God applys forgiveness only to those who apply their free will to " Join Him."
And thats just flawed reasoning, and I will show why. Peace.
So you are saying God would let Jesus go through such punishment and torture as He suffered when it was His plan to save everyone anyway. I cannot believe that He would allow His Son to suffer all this for mere creations. Jesus willing suffered these things to fulfill His part of the covenant. So God let Jesus fulfill His own will, but He will not allow us to fulfill ours?
God does not turn his back on people who have perfectly done his will. To imply that he turned his back on Jesus for perfectly doing his will, is an insult on Gods integrity, as is much of Christian doctrine."
I do not believe there was ever a human other than Jesus that could do God's will perfectly. As a believer I do not believe that He will leave me, but I can hinder my fellowship with Him by not doing His will.
The Salvation of all does not mean Christ died for nothing, it is made possible BY Christ death. You see Christian teaching seeks to factor Christian behavior into Salvation, thinking their performance earns or results in Salvation.
You seem to be misunderstanding my initial stand on this issue. I agree totally that the death of Jesus made Salvation "possible" for all. I do not in any way think that Christian behavior can save anyone. We are saved by Grace (undeserved mercy) through FAITH, that not of ourselves lest anyone should boast. Maybe some "Christians" you know want to take partial credit for their salvation, but not this one. Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe.
Bobby
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
I find the substitutionary sacrifice doctrine concerning Jesus to be incorrect.
"mere creation" is a very poor choice of words. "God saw all that He had made and behold it was very good". The entirety of the cosmos is itself sacred. God loves His creation: "For God so loved the world [kosmos] in Greek.
Shalom
Ted:-6
"mere creation" is a very poor choice of words. "God saw all that He had made and behold it was very good". The entirety of the cosmos is itself sacred. God loves His creation: "For God so loved the world [kosmos] in Greek.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
[QUOTE=BHughesNC;848419]So you are saying God would let Jesus go through such punishment and torture as He suffered when it was His plan to save everyone anyway. I cannot believe that He would allow His Son to suffer all this for mere creations. Jesus willing suffered these things to fulfill His part of the covenant. So God let Jesus fulfill His own will, but He will not allow us to fulfill ours?Quote
Not only was it Gods will for Jesus to suffer, but it is his will for each one of us to suffer also. I see no way around the suffering that God has decreed for us all, such is the way of God for both Jesus and us.
Peace.
Not only was it Gods will for Jesus to suffer, but it is his will for each one of us to suffer also. I see no way around the suffering that God has decreed for us all, such is the way of God for both Jesus and us.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Ted;848746 wrote: I find the substitutionary sacrifice doctrine concerning Jesus to be incorrect.
"mere creation" is a very poor choice of words. "God saw all that He had made and behold it was very good". The entirety of the cosmos is itself sacred. God loves His creation: "For God so loved the world [kosmos] in Greek.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I did not say or even imply that God does not love His creation. I am saying that compared to the love He has for Christ.
The fact that you find the substitunionary sacrifice doctrine concering Jesus incorrect does not make it incorrect.
Bobby
"mere creation" is a very poor choice of words. "God saw all that He had made and behold it was very good". The entirety of the cosmos is itself sacred. God loves His creation: "For God so loved the world [kosmos] in Greek.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I did not say or even imply that God does not love His creation. I am saying that compared to the love He has for Christ.
The fact that you find the substitunionary sacrifice doctrine concering Jesus incorrect does not make it incorrect.
Bobby