When religious discussion is no longer General.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:07 pm

I have not posted in this section for awhile, and I kind of don't want to see it wasted away. Its like seeing a house you used to live in, just rotting away. I hope its okay with the members if I try and shoot a little life into it, and then be on my way again. I have been playing the arcade games here, and hoping someonelse would do it, but perhaps there is just not much interest.

Did you know that even in religion, the thoughts can go deep? I mean not the general basic stuff, for surface dwellers, but actually get into areas of knowledge that even science has yet to travel? I used to do that here a bit, the thread on was primordial man conscious? Just jumping into things which were beyond me, and enjoying the experience.

One thing that goes beyond religious knowledge, is that God himself wanted religion to fail? A statement that would surprise the religious minded people, they would be shocked at it! One would think that God supports religion, backs it up, guides it, but none of those are really true.

One may ask, " Well how do you know?' Well I read it. In the bible, God is not a respecter of any person , and religions are just a bunch of persons, so why would he respect their religions? But the world has respected religions and their teachings;

A serious error in history, and now. The world should have never respected religions in the manner in which they have.

Post by **LarsMac** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:36 pm

I have to agree. Most people seem to confuse God and Religion.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:44 am

Mickiel;1474860 wrote: I have not posted in this section for awhile, and I kind of don't want to see it wasted away. Its like seeing a house you used to live in, just rotting away. I hope its okay with the members if I try and shoot a little life into it, and then be on my way again. I have been playing the arcade games here, and hoping someonelse would do it, but perhaps there is just not much interest.

Did you know that even in religion, the thoughts can go deep? I mean not the general basic stuff, for surface dwellers, but actually get into areas of knowledge that even science has yet to travel? I used to do that here a bit, the thread on was primordial man conscious? Just jumping into things which were beyond me, and enjoying the experience.You used the threads in the forum as a blog. FG provides blogs for what you were posting where it's closed to comments from other members. Nobody prevented you from doing anything, you simply didn't appreciate challenges made to your self-created myths. Not that there's anything wrong with personal myths except accept that that's what they are. It's not reality.

As for what you refer to as deep thoughts, that's called imagination and I'm glad you have one. Unfortunately for you, yours is centered on religion, and religion just doesn't command attention from the masses as it once did. Religion is dying, and God is dying right along with it. I understand you don't want to call your myth a religion, but again, unfortunately for you, that's exactly what it is. God and belief is religion. Sorry about being blunt.

Mickiel;1474860 wrote: One thing that goes beyond religious knowledge, is that God himself wanted religion to fail? A statement that would surprise the religious minded people, they would be shocked at it! One would think that God supports religion, backs it up, guides it, but none of those are really true.Where did this information come from? God? If that's the case be prepared to prove that somehow.

Mickiel;1474860 wrote: One may ask, " Well how do you know?' Well I read it. In the bible, God is not a respecter of any person , and religions are just a bunch of persons, so why would he respect their religions? But the world has respected religions and their teachings;This is a total contradiction to the bible. If you were correct why then the laws and rituals God supposedly outlined in the old testament?

Mickiel;1474860 wrote: A serious error in history, and now. The world should have never respected religions in the manner in which they have.Says who? You? While I agree that religion is antiquated, so is the notion of any God. I can say that if you can say what you've said and I'm just as correct as you are because there is nothing concrete to establish which is right and which is wrong. There's no way of knowing because it's all myth and nothing more. And it's past its time, which is why we are observing the level of fallout we are. Societies are evolving, get used to it, it's what societies do.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:48 am

LarsMac;1474861 wrote: I have to agree. Most people seem to confuse God and Religion.How so? I'm asking in a generic sense, not that any one or group of persons lack understanding in your personal myth's mindset. Since there is no established and concrete definition of either "God" or "Religion" and both are interchangeable depending on the individual or group, what makes yours correct?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:11 am

LarsMac;1474861 wrote: I have to agree. Most people seem to confuse God and Religion.Come to think of it, you could be correct; religion exists, God doesn't.

Post by **LarsMac** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:16 am

Ahso!;1474876 wrote: Come to think of it, you could be correct; religion exists, God doesn't.

That is one way of looking at it, I suppose.

There are religions who do not require God to exist. In fact most of them are more about governing personal behavior than they are about God.

Many hang their god up on the wall, or keep him in a book, and never recognize the god that lives in their heart.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:43 am

The only thing in your heart is blood. If we're discussing what happens in certain regions of the brain then we can do that with the proper language and information. I expect neither one is us is qualified to have that conversation outside some very basic knowledge. However, substituting "heart" for "brain" and any erroneous information included is storytelling and not fact. Which is fine provided the storytelling is presented as such and not represented as fact.

Post by **LarsMac** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:14 am

Ahso!;1474901 wrote: The only thing in your heart is blood. If we're discussing what happens in certain regions of the brain then we can do that with the proper language and information. I expect neither one is us is qualified to have that conversation outside some very basic knowledge. However, substituting "heart" for "brain" and any erroneous information included is storytelling and not fact. Which is fine provided the storytelling is presented as such and not represented as fact.

So, then, why are you posting in a religious forum, if you reject all religion?

(on which you and Mickiel seem to agree.)

There are people in the world who are perfectly comfortable with their religion and don't have to have other people agree with them.

You should be as comfortable with your atheism.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:22 am

I don't practice any religion, but that doesn't mean I reject all religion. All I'm saying is present it for what it is; Myth, as opposed to fact. I'm not objecting to the posting in the forum, I'm challenging the accuracy of the presentation.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:35 am

I thought the only answer to come from Deep Thought was 42.

Post by **LarsMac** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:40 am

FourPart;1474910 wrote: I thought the only answer to come from Deep Thought was 42.

Douglas Adams confessed once that there was very little thought, deep, or otherwise, put into that.

Post by **LarsMac** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:42 am

LarsMac;1474911 wrote: Douglas Adams confessed once that there was very little thought, deep, or otherwise, put into that.

And that is really the problem with most religions. Religious people tend to take themselves far too seriously.

Even Buddhists.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:45 am

LarsMac;1474905 wrote: So, then, why are you posting in a religious forum, if you reject all religion?

(on which you and Mickiel seem to agree.)

There are people in the world who are perfectly comfortable with their religion and don't have to have other people agree with them.

You should be as comfortable with your atheism.

He is, I believe, comfortable with his atheism. If he listened to your advice & didn't comment & give his thoughts, what kind of forum would this be?-------a place where certain threads are designed specifically for those who agree? This is a place of discussion & I am happy to read Ahso!'s comments. Besides, atheists are under no obligation to ignore religion. For example, I generally hate Republicans, yet I tune in to hear their comments & sometimes agree (though rarely) with some things. As well, I don't blame or hate the person having these thoughts-------most people deserve a listener.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:56 am

I am so Anti-Religious that to me it's more like a Religion in itself - if that makes any sense.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:04 am

FourPart;1474916 wrote: I am so Anti-Religious that to me it's more like a Religion in itself - if that makes any sense.

I understand. I may not agree with such fervor, but I understand.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:05 am

LarsMac;1474912 wrote: And that is really the problem with most religions. Religious people tend to take themselves far too seriously.

Even Buddhists.Religion has been arguably helpful in the advancement of the species. Religion is said to have been a prime mover in grouping and socializing, though its been abused here and there by some.

The point I make is that we now have learned enough about our existence that religion's myths are no longer necessary or relevant. We can now construct the platforms of our commonalities on what we observe in a real sense. We can bond, and had better do so, around what we've learned to be good and constructive to the planet and its inhabitants. Our past beliefs, which are steeped mostly in ignorance have proven harmful to our existence. Our survival depends on our moving beyond the myths of the past and reestablishing or reinventing, if you will, our understanding. We can't do any of that until we begin to communicate with language that reflects today's, as opposed to yesterday's knowledge. This is essential stuff in order to move on and save ourselves, if that's at all possible at this point.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:06 am

LarsMac;1474912 wrote: And that is really the problem with most religions. Religious people tend to take themselves far too seriously.

Even Buddhists.

Maybe this expresses a need for self-identification through group identification. It's lonely out there.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:07 am

Ahso!: "Our survival depends on our moving beyond the myths of the past and reestablishing or reinventing, if you will, our understanding. We can't do any of that until we begin to communicate with language that reflects today's, as opposed to yesterday's knowledge. This is essential stuff in order to move on and save ourselves, if that's at all possible at this point."

Tell that to ISIS.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:37 am

I think many people automatically equate religion to be something that God approves of, which I disagree with. But that kind of thinking is not religious in the first place; no person who believes in God, will think that he disapproves of how they think about him. That requires a deeper kind of thought that can see fault in their own selves, their own beliefs, and to get to those points, pride and tradition and self righteousness, has to be removed from the consciousness and you stand naked to the truth of this.

If an Atheist can remove all thoughts of there being any gods or a God, then a Theist can remove all false conceptions of God, but a lot of them are mired down by what they have accepted into their beliefs. If an Atheist can stand on their knowledge of what is not true and be clear about that, have clarity, then A Theist should be able to do the exact same thing with the knowledge they consume, and have clarity.

I don't see that in Theism and religion. That ability to chipper away what is myths , foolishness, tradition, surface knowledge, deception, twisted, is seriously lacking and handicapped.

Post by **LarsMac** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:07 pm

AnneBoleyn;1474919 wrote: Maybe this expresses a need for self-identification through group identification. It's lonely out there.

Yes it is.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:30 am

If there were any further evidence required to proof that evolution exists, one only needs to observe chimpanzees in the wild. Not their commonly help fluffy, cuddly, tea party image, but in the way that they will team up & fashion clubs as weapons then go on assaults on neighbouring groups in territorial wars, killing them where possible. At this stage the motive are simply territorial. It's not far along the evolutionary ladder when Religions get invented & they become the new motivation for war.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:50 am

FourPart;1474966 wrote: If there were any further evidence required to proof that evolution exists, one only needs to observe chimpanzees in the wild. Not their commonly help fluffy, cuddly, tea party image, but in the way that they will team up & fashion clubs as weapons then go on assaults on neighbouring groups in territorial wars, killing them where possible. At this stage the motive are simply territorial. It's not far along the evolutionary ladder when Religions get invented & they become the new motivation for war.

In my view, a simple butterfly is more evidence of evolution than a chimp.

That being said, a time has come that we can ill afford to keep being " General" in our knowledge of and dealings with religion; these are not common times, and common thinking allows religion to flourish. These are extra ordinary times, that require extra ordinary thinking. Religion is mans effort to reach God, it is not God trying to reach man.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:04 am

We cannot become victims of our past , but we certainly can learn from that history. Can we defy tradition? Because the bulk of religion is simply tradition; the traditions and cultures of humans. A lot happened when Constantine beefed up religion in the 4th century , and the things he planted are still living and breathing in the human consciousness. That historic stuff, entered into the bloodstream of Christianity and has been there ever since; growing in influence, masking itself in incredible fusion.The evolution of religion started effecting everything, even architecture. The Byzantine phase of church architecture was incredible, as were Romanesque and Gothic.

And if one wanted to, to dig deeper into knowledge, into history, just stop accepting the general understanding, you could look at all that architecture and trace it to many pagan origins. And if you look deeper into this stuff, it would swell the cranium.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:02 am

Regrettably, though, "Learning From The Mistakes Of The Past", rather than learning how to not let something happen again, tends to go towards be learning how best to turn situations to one's own advantage by increasing Power & Control over others. More often than not this is by way of moulding & creating Religions to become more & more violent & even more intolerant.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:12 pm

FourPart;1474994 wrote: Regrettably, though, "Learning From The Mistakes Of The Past", rather than learning how to not let something happen again, tends to go towards be learning how best to turn situations to one's own advantage by increasing Power & Control over others. More often than not this is by way of moulding & creating Religions to become more & more violent & even more intolerant.

I agree, it is unfortunate that how we rewind religion, does not seem to erase the error and add on correction, and then play that on into the future. Religion is not an evil thing or concept within itself, people have made it what it is, no different than Atheism, or Islam ; all ways of life are impacted and infracted by us. Knowledge is increasing, but how humans absorb spiritual knowledge, is a whole different concept cradled in confusion.

The discussion on religion needs to be changed totally. We can't change religion, its far too late for that, we can't wipe them out and we can't remove its lure from the heart of mankind. So what can we do with it?

Now that's a question which is up for grabs , but who has the courage and foresight to grab it without the weight of the past?

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:51 pm

Ever since the tower of Babel was erected to " reach the Heavens', civilizations have followed suit by building structures with pointed tops. Which reflect beliefs. The Babylonians and Egyptians built obelisks and pyramids that reflected their beliefs that they were progressing towards immortality. Then the Greeks came along with their philosophy and culture and the direction of architecture changed from upward and vertical to downward and horizontal. So we can see religious influences on material things in history, and trace that to particulars. The longer the building last, the longer the hidden influence will last. But if an onlooker is not aware of the religious history in this, then to them, a building is just a building. Its just " General", nothing worth thinking about, or no history involved. From Normandy to Britain, a trained eye can literally " See through buildings, the influencing history involved."

You can't remove religion out of a place, where even " The Buildings are " Spiritual".

Even the " Pulpit" in most churches came from Greco-Roman antiquity. The word pulpit is derived from the Latin word " Pulpitum", which means a stage. Back then they wanted " Excessive attention " to the preacher or orator, whether they were sitting or standing, which is also the origin of " The Bishop's Chair." Even the simple presence of " Candles" was borrowed from the ceremonial court of the Roman Empire. ( from Frank Viola's, " Pagan Christianity pg. 36-38.) Viola states that one could " Exegete the architecture."

Now why bring all this building stuff up? Well to show just one way to get beyond a general look at things in religion and its history. And add to your understanding just what we are up against.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:41 am

Mickiel;1475002 wrote: I agree, it is unfortunate that how we rewind religion, does not seem to erase the error and add on correction, and then play that on into the future. Religion is not an evil thing or concept within itself, people have made it what it is, no different than Atheism, or Islam ; all ways of life are impacted and infracted by us. Knowledge is increasing, but how humans absorb spiritual knowledge, is a whole different concept cradled in confusion.

The discussion on religion needs to be changed totally. We can't change religion, its far too late for that, we can't wipe them out and we can't remove its lure from the heart of mankind. So what can we do with it?

Now that's a question which is up for grabs , but who has the courage and foresight to grab it without the weight of the past?

What we can do is teach people to question what they are taught to believe trouble is we allow religious schools to exist and let religion cloister kids so they can teach them that they are different from everybody else and everybody else has an erroneous perverted view of what god is and so in the name of tolerance we allow the preaching of intolerance. Look at what is happening now we have religious sects of all types demanding that their beliefs be respected which to them means no one should be allowed to criticise, question or make fun of them in any way. Most non believers can run rings round the religious when it comes to discussing religion for the simple reason that they have actually read and given thought to the subject. Look at this thread and see all the comments about how people don't "get" the true meaning of Christianity or have the wrong idea of god.

If an Atheist can remove all thoughts of there being any gods or a God, then a Theist can remove all false conceptions of God,

It would be laughable if it wasn't something that led to so much misery in the world.

Anyone with a scintilla of knowledge could tell you that religious rituals are simply updated versions of pagan ritual (Catholicism most of all) that easter and Christmas are old pagan times of celebration hijacked by christians yet every year we hear bleating about how the true meaning of chrismas is being lost.

Religion be it Christian or Muslim is carefully crafted to control people an make them conform and not question their place in society. Liberty is pagan concept thankfully ingrained in our psyche.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:54 pm

gmc;1475019 wrote: What we can do is teach people to question what they are taught to believe trouble is we allow religious schools to exist and let religion cloister kids so they can teach them that they are different from everybody else and everybody else has an erroneous perverted view of what god is and so in the name of tolerance we allow the preaching of intolerance. Look at what is happening now we have religious sects of all types demanding that their beliefs be respected which to them means no one should be allowed to criticise, question or make fun of them in any way. Most non believers can run rings round the religious when it comes to discussing religion for the simple reason that they have actually read and given thought to the subject. Look at this thread and see all the comments about how people don't "get" the true meaning of Christianity or have the wrong idea of god.

It would be laughable if it wasn't something that led to so much misery in the world.

Anyone with a scintilla of knowledge could tell you that religious rituals are simply updated versions of pagan ritual (Catholicism most of all) that easter and Christmas are old pagan times of celebration hijacked by christians yet every year we hear bleating about how the true meaning of chrismas is being lost.

Religion be it Christian or Muslim is carefully crafted to control people an make them conform and not question their place in society. Liberty is pagan concept thankfully ingrained in our psyche.

I agree; tradition , like paganism, cannot be removed from groups, cities or nations, because its dug its roots in for centuries, only from individuals; even when things are spoken to a group, its still received by the individuals who accept it. When enough individuals are awakened, then they can inject into society what was injected into them.

That's one way to bring about change; but there is another.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:10 am

Religion is no longer a " Surface problem", its a deeply ingrained problem, and it cannot be dealt with by using surface thinking; we need deep thinking. Religion does not even know its a problem. Some religions, in the ancient times, may have been religion in its purest form, before they were tainted and corrupted. And as some here know, when we dig deeper, we find paganism. Not that paganism is wrong, but true organic religion is not mixed traditional institutionalized elements of paganism or other religions, it stands on its own merit. When foreign elements attach themselves, those elements need to be exposed and examined.

So what happened to religion? Not a general look, but a deep look.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:02 pm

People are leaving religions, they are tired of the institutions, denominations and routines that disconnect you from reason. Worn out by the endless programs and doctrines of insanity. But where are they going? To other new fangled religions? Or are they convinced there is no God, because they don't like religion?

As we grapple with such issues, how did religion even get in this mess in the first place?

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:22 pm

You know, and many may disagree with this, but in my view, religion got into the mess its in, because it was actually a God that did start creation and helped boost civilization, but the God did not become personally directly involved , up front, with the oncoming history of developing religion, on a day to day basis throughout the evolution of it. Why? Because, I think, he both knew and wanted just what has happened, to indeed happen! And that history could only have corrupted, IF he stayed off of influencing it to turn out better than it has. In my view, and again its just my personal view on this incredible dynamic, that is WHY what has happened to religion, has occurred!

I recall one scripture in Job 36:26, " God is great and we know him not!" THAT IS why religion has failed to control humanity. Religion thinks it knows God, thinks it worships God, but it was God, who conditioned the earth to be flooded with myths of other god's, with unbelief, with confusion and with deception. Human history has happened, in the only manner it could have unfolded, when God is behind the scenes. But he has manipulated our history. That is also WHY no one can change religion, we cannot remove religion, but we don't have to believe religion. So education is part of the " Reality of our situation", because we cannot change our situation, only hope that more can be properly aware of just what that situation is and WHY?

Human history can be compared to a tidal wave, streaming forward in an unstoppable tide. But that tide did NOT come from nowhere. We have to ask WHY?

God actually did not in the past, in this present, nor ever in our future, use religion to bring people to believe in him or be aware of him; NEVER! God has used religion for the direct opposite reason than I think people can hardly bring themselves to accept; to bring about more confusion! Christianity and Islam included! No religion is an exception to this.

Socrates was considered by some to be the father of philosophy, he had a habit of pelting people with searching questions about their customs; it eventually got him killed. A clear message was sent to his fellow Athenians; " All who question the established customs will meet the same fate!" This is where Isis gets this mentality from, its where extremist Islamist get it from, our past! Some people get so serious and protective of their religion, they will kill you for it! I can't count the Christian websites I have been kicked off of, because I stood against their customs, and showed them the root of those customs. Trying to take the conversation past general, they became enraged at me doing that, as if its a picture they cannot even look at;

as if a look at that picture would kill them.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:01 am

You know, religion never seems to ask themselves, " Why we do what we do", they just do it, trained to think its right to do. Never even search to see if what they do has biblical backing. Much of religion has been influenced more by human history, than by their books and writings. And those outside of religion, have given more attention to the behaviors of the people, than the writings they adhere to.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:31 pm

Mickiel;1475286 wrote: You know, religion never seems to ask themselves, " Why we do what we do", they just do it, trained to think its right to do. Never even search to see if what they do has biblical backing. Much of religion has been influenced more by human history, than by their books and writings. And those outside of religion, have given more attention to the behaviors of the people, than the writings they adhere to.

There's another word for that - "Brainwashing".

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:01 am

FourPart;1475311 wrote: There's another word for that - "Brainwashing".

True. Yet consider this, if we can even examine Brainwashing a bit deeper, and not in the general fashion.

Brainwashing can be a two edged sword , we generally use it in the negative sense; the connotation is then, " The persons mind is blow away by whatever, and they are worse off than before." Yet what if the opposite happens and their mind is actually washed clean and they are better off than before, in whatever areas? And this is the " hope in religion", to hit that number, win that lottery, so its part of the offer. If you get in, you may win. If you join, you get the prize.

Even perverted twisted versions of Islam, offer a prize, a reward. So this opens a window into religion that reveals a deadly mixture of " Truth and Lies." One can think, " Life is Life, and its all there is too it", and receive satisfaction from that, others seek more. Sadly religion has capitalized on this perception, ( and perception becomes more powerful in belief), and now even the rewards are polluted by beliefs.

So how do we navigate through web of intrigue?

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:02 pm

We can't hardly see the future, so we have to go back.

And examine what was there. Because whatever was there, it was powerful!

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:54 pm

Mickiel;1475484 wrote: We can't hardly see the future, so we have to go back.

Past behavior is a good indication of future behavior, what else do we have to go on?

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:01 pm

Mickiel;1475416 wrote: True. Yet consider this, if we can even examine Brainwashing a bit deeper, and not in the general fashion.

Brainwashing can be a two edged sword , we generally use it in the negative sense; the connotation is then, " The persons mind is blow away by whatever, and they are worse off than before." Yet what if the opposite happens and their mind is actually washed clean and they are better off than before, in whatever areas? And this is the " hope in religion", to hit that number, win that lottery, so its part of the offer. If you get in, you may win. If you join, you get the prize.

Even perverted twisted versions of Islam, offer a prize, a reward. So this opens a window into religion that reveals a deadly mixture of " Truth and Lies." One can think, " Life is Life, and its all there is too it", and receive satisfaction from that, others seek more. Sadly religion has capitalized on this perception, ( and perception becomes more powerful in belief), and now even the rewards are polluted by beliefs.

So how do we navigate through web of intrigue?
Actually, "Brainwashing" is a bit of a misnomer. It does totally the opposite of washing anything from the brain, but works by stuffing more misinformation into the brain than it can handle, forcing it to believe whatever it has stuffed into it.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:08 pm

AnneBoleyn;1475487 wrote: Past behavior is a good indication of future behavior, what else do we have to go on?

Well we can trace the social life of a nation, and through that get deeper into pictures of their intellect, emotions, imaginations, and how that has affected the recorded history. Which is why religion is such a challenge to historically consider, because it is torrid unstable balance of Idealism and Realism. A fertile ground for both facts and myths to be born. But the study and discussion cannot be general or typical, it has to go beyond that, because this dynamic has gone beyond generalizations.

Then we have to ask, " Can we trust history?"

Examine this for example;

History: Can We Trust the Narrative? | Features | Tavis Smiley | PBS

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:12 pm

FourPart;1475501 wrote: Actually, "Brainwashing" is a bit of a misnomer. It does totally the opposite of washing anything from the brain, but works by stuffing more misinformation into the brain than it can handle, forcing it to believe whatever it has stuffed into it.

Well that's true, but another point to consider, is as I stated, the washing can take on different aspects, such as " The Whitewashing of Black American History." A different kind of washing.

Notice the link I posted.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:18 pm

Unlike the Black experience in history, religion has crossed all human lines , at one time or another, in one form or another. I think religion has managed to effect the total of humanity, with very few exceptions. Those societies with no religions, have a fear of them, or a hatred of them; still an effect.

So as we consider religion in more detail, we have to see the size of it in the human consciousness! Because its been big, and its been a savior and a monster!

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:33 pm

There are many theories as to how religion first started, notice this;

About religion: why it started and how it evolved

The theory I accept, is that humans started religions. For whatever reasons, which may vary, and are worth looking into, we got ourselves into this. Obviously I believe in God, and will later explain my views on his involvement; because he was involved, by being uninvolved.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:35 pm

Mickiel;1475515 wrote: There are many theories as to how religion first started, notice this;

About religion: why it started and how it evolved

The theory I accept, is that humans started religions. For whatever reasons, which may vary, and are worth looking into, we got ourselves into this. Obviously I believe in God, and will later explain my views on his involvement; because he was involved, by being uninvolved.

We need to pair you up with Pahu & his notions on Evolution.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:09 pm

FourPart;1475516 wrote: We need to pair you up with Pahu & his notions on Evolution.

I believe in evolution, its incredible turning wheel, I just believe God started it, and not it itself. I believe most things evolve, but I do not believe those things have self generated origin. I believe both animals and humans evolve, but I do not view humans as being continuous with the bloodline of apes. Although we have obvious incredible similarity.

Its kind of different with me now, as I consider things; God, to me, has a tendency to begin things, give them a cycle, and then let them turn on their own. Such as human birth from pregnancy, there had to be a first woman, who had a womb, that was perfectly compatible with the male spamodazoa. And off it went, undisturbed by God. I view evolution the same; he created, enough essentials on all levels, and off life went, undisturbed.

But religion; now that's different, I do not believe God created religion, and I am not so " Spiritual" that I will not give human creators who have created things, their just due, and give their creations to God, no. Man created religion, but man's " View of God, had something to do with religions being created." If you can follow that.

Not that God personally inspired humans to do that, but that humans inspired themselves to do it, in an effort to communicate with God, or gods of their creation, or to be their own god's, or be free of the whole drama.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:16 pm

I think it would be easy back then, as it still would be now, to create a religion. But where would the very idea of religion come from? Now that we can narrow down a bit; somewhere in the mind of man! What do you think the " Inspiration" of religion was?

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:58 pm

I personally don't think the idea of religion came from humans before Adam, or primordial man, or whatever you want to name early man. I see nothing in the bible that refers to them, and nothing in there that is against their existence. So I want to avoid them both for now, primordial man and the bible, concerning the beginning of religion. There was a time when no religion existed, and no civilization existed, so in my view, they are possibly tied together. Men moved out from caves and invented " Tents", and the tools to build them, and accumulated the knowledge to do these things. They learned to use brass and iron, cloth and weaving, and life went on.

And I don't think religion just popped up out of nowhere, neither did science; something had to slowly motivate the mind of man to conjer up religion. But what?

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:33 pm

Wherever there is the unexplainable it has always been accredited to a 'God'. Lightning was thought to be spears thrown by God when he was angry, as were things like earthquakes, drought, flood, astronomical phenomena, eclipses, etc. Anyone who questioned this would be subjected to the extremes of religious dogmatic penalties for heresy. Modern science exists thanks to those who had the courage of their convictions to question their brainwashers.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:06 pm

FourPart;1475537 wrote: Wherever there is the unexplainable it has always been accredited to a 'God'. Lightning was thought to be spears thrown by God when he was angry, as were things like earthquakes, drought, flood, astronomical phenomena, eclipses, etc. Anyone who questioned this would be subjected to the extremes of religious dogmatic penalties for heresy. Modern science exists thanks to those who had the courage of their convictions to question their brainwashers.

Science itself used to be thought of as unexplainable and mystical, but yet when the church embraced it, took it in, then science discovered that it and religion had the same goals, ( at that time), trying to explain man and nature, and search for " The Divine". Then science grew tired of " Church regulated science", because it, Science, I think was growing much faster than the church in knowledge, and it rebelled from the church. And I am glad it did, because that rebellion from the church, gave birth to " The Scientific Revolution", now science was free of the Bishops and Popes who felt that they only could explain " The Heavens", and a serious competition began for who would lead in that area.

Science smoked the church and left it behind; grew in leaps and bounds.

Now, that is true history, and as I have tried to explain, we cannot forget or neglect to deeply examine history; and religion and science share a history together. Neither may like or embrace that, but its true.

And I think they have a date in the future, to again meet each other, but I think on far different terms.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:37 pm

When we look at history, prejudice and favoritism need to take a back seat in the search. Because we can't change history, cannot alter it, cannot replace it. Just see it as it was. All history is, is a time container , frozen in that time.

And there is much to glean from that.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 4:15 pm

Mickiel;1475539 wrote: Now, that is true history, and as I have tried to explain, we cannot forget or neglect to deeply examine history; and religion and science share a history together. Neither may like or embrace that, but its true.

However, there are still the Religious Extremists who will seek to use their dogmatic beliefs to deny the existence of scientific evidence.

Mickiel · Post by **Mickiel** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 4:29 pm

FourPart;1475541 wrote: However, there are still the Religious Extremists who will seek to use their dogmatic beliefs to deny the existence of scientific evidence.

Well there are still scientific extremist who deny the biblical archaeological evidence unearthed; so extremism goes both ways.