Jesus of Nazareth

Ted
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Post by Ted »

Who was the historical Jesus. Many opinions have been presented from a mythological character to the very God him/her,itself. Who is this Jesus for you?
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Post by Bruv »

Ted;1482953 wrote: Who was the historical Jesus. Many opinions have been presented from a mythological character to the very God him/her,itself. Who is this Jesus for you?


Mainly an irritation in a certain forum I visit.
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Post by Snowfire »

I'm given to understand there is little historicity beyond what is written in the Bible and even then, is there not a gaping hole of 30 years where nothing is written of him.
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Post by Bruv »

Historicity ?

Well I never, it is a word.......I checked.

This thread was not in vain, thanks for that.
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Post by FourPart »

Bruv;1482967 wrote: Historicity ?

Well I never, it is a word.......I checked.

This thread was not in vain, thanks for that.
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Post by Ted »

Actually the Bible is not a history book nor was it intended to be. To be sure some of the points made may be based on an historical event. Our job is to try to find out what the event was that caused that to be written in the first place. Not an easy task. The Bible is a book composed of myth, legend, short story, poetry, some bits of history along with philosophy and theology. As a book if read literally there are far too many contradictions to make any historical sense out of a good deal of it unless it is red with some knowledge of the style of writing called "midrash" Under this approach the contradictions and evils apparently perpetrated by God simply don't matter. I draw your attention to Numbers 31 where God apparently promotes, no orders, war crimes. A lot of creative dancing is do to reconcile all of these issues that are irreconcilable.
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Post by Ted »

To make a point about Jesus of Nazareth. The Birth stories and the Crucifixion stories are midrash. Yes Jesus was born (parentage questionable) although Mary was probably his mother. No star, no wise ment no angel choirs They are midrash to explain the importance of this man. They used metaphor in the broadest terms. The Crucifixion happened but the stories in the Bible are again midrash to show the importance given to this event. Jesus was very much a human being in who we saw and ssill see the true manifestation of the nature of God. He did not die for our sins. What kind of God would demand a blood sacrifice of his own son. No Jesus was executed because he was viewed as a threat to the empire. Treason might be a better word.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1482953 wrote: Who was the historical Jesus. Many opinions have been presented from a mythological character to the very God him/her,itself. Who is this Jesus for you?


Hi Ted

I am working on something on the origins of Gnostic Christianity that may be helpful.

Please have a look at what I say of the Nazarene as well as the rest. I value your opinion and wish to know your thinking on this.

The origins of Gnostic Christianity. Chrestianity.

In trying to find the origins of Gnostic Christianity, I have had to more or less reverse engineer the literature to try to reach a palatable explanation for how Gnostic Christianity began. Here is my conclusion.

My research, for what it is, says that the Nazarene Jesus formed a group of Jews and gentiles into what they called the good man and Good God religion called Chrestianity. That is not a spelling error. That Chrestianity, I believe, was taken over by a Rome created Christianity.





I have reached my conclusion on the fact that Gnostic Christianity and Jewry seem to have a long history of intelligent though on religion and God before Christianity took over with their supernatural creator God. That God is to us Gnostic Christians, a vile and immoral demiurge.

Jews and Gnostic used myths to seek God. Christianity and Islam are idol worshiping religions that think they have found a Godinabook.

Christians especially idol worship words and ignore what their own Word of God tells them.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Christians and Muslims no longer have the knowledge of who God is. They look everywhere except where their holy books tells them to look.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Based on the Jewish and Gnostic Christian theologies, I conclude that Chrestianity was taken over by Christianity in its efforts to make both Jewry and Gnostic Christianity disappear. They obviously failed.

Regards

DL
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Post by Ted »

Gnostic I know nothing of the small group that you speak of. What I think is that Jesus was born in Nazareth just as his name is called. We saw in this Jesus a true manifestation of what God was. Jesus in some way became a "God presence" Spong. During his brief time in ministry he continued to elevate the marginalized and the oppressed. He was an opponent of the Roman Empire. He was a subversive nd that is what cost him his life. We call it treason. After his death Paul had some sort of conversion experience of which we know nothing. He preached Jesus message as he saw it and was convinced of the truthfulness of his message. However Paul was not to popular with Rome. After his death some of his followers made the evvort to produce writings in Paul's name. Not an uncommon practice in those days. But as time went on to make Christianity more popular the later writings tried to sanitize Paul making him more acceptable. It wasn't Rome so much but Paul's followers who did this. Of course it was not until Constantine came along that Christianity became acceptable to the empire. Another point about Jesus as I see it he was born a Jew, was a devout Jew all his life and died a devout Jew. H was attempting to do what Luther later tried to do reform the synagogue not start a new faith. Jesus was not and never was a Christian LOL

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Post by AnneBoleyn »

"Another point about Jesus as I see it he was born a Jew, was a devout Jew all his life and died a devout Jew. H was attempting to do what Luther later tried to do reform the synagogue not start a new faith. Jesus was not and never was a Christian LOL."

Absolutely agree Ted.
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Post by Ted »

Jesus was from a very low class. What I find amazing is that a simple peasant is able to change the course of history. He must have been a profound human being. The same wholds true for some of the other great faiths. Sidharta Gautama while born into a riach family chose to live outside of that class aas a pauper, Mohammid was also from a lower class.,
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Post by Ted »

This leads us into another related topic. What was or is the resurrection????
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1484023 wrote: Gnostic I know nothing of the small group that you speak of. What I think is that Jesus was born in Nazareth just as his name is called. We saw in this Jesus a true manifestation of what God was. Jesus in some way became a "God presence" Spong. During his brief time in ministry he continued to elevate the marginalized and the oppressed. He was an opponent of the Roman Empire. He was a subversive nd that is what cost him his life. We call it treason. After his death Paul had some sort of conversion experience of which we know nothing. He preached Jesus message as he saw it and was convinced of the truthfulness of his message. However Paul was not to popular with Rome. After his death some of his followers made the evvort to produce writings in Paul's name. Not an uncommon practice in those days. But as time went on to make Christianity more popular the later writings tried to sanitize Paul making him more acceptable. It wasn't Rome so much but Paul's followers who did this. Of course it was not until Constantine came along that Christianity became acceptable to the empire. Another point about Jesus as I see it he was born a Jew, was a devout Jew all his life and died a devout Jew. H was attempting to do what Luther later tried to do reform the synagogue not start a new faith. Jesus was not and never was a Christian LOL

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And would certainly not join what is now Christianity.

Shame would have him criticize them quite soundly.

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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1484046 wrote: Jesus was from a very low class. What I find amazing is that a simple peasant is able to change the course of history. He must have been a profound human being. The same wholds true for some of the other great faiths. Sidharta Gautama while born into a riach family chose to live outside of that class aas a pauper, Mohammid was also from a lower class.,


I think if you check the demographics of the day, Jesus, as a carpenter, would have been an educated craftsman and likely a part of the middle to high class.

Somewhat like a house slave as compared to a field slave.

A Rabbi was expected to know how to read and if Jesus was a Rabbi, he was not of the lower classes.

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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1484049 wrote: This leads us into another related topic. What was or is the resurrection????


A lie and misuse of the reborn concept which was to show a person being mentally reborn or resurrected.

In esoteric language one can be reborn. in literal language one cannot be as that language is not of the spirit.

John 6 ; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

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DL
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Post by Ted »

I cannot agree. It is not a lie. We have to remeember we do not realy know what happened at Easter. Whatever it was it was profound. These folks were trying to make sense out of what they did not understand. The lacked the language and the conceptualizing ability to do so. They were not stupid people they simply did not have the advanced knowledge we have today.
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Post by Ted »

It is very difficult and dangerous to judge the past on the basis of our present education and knowledge. The handling of relics was based on the idea that part of the mystery of God was in some human bodies and that if one touched the relics some of that wisdom or knowledge would transfer to them. How can we laugh at them when they were in deep belief.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1484140 wrote: I cannot agree. It is not a lie. We have to remeember we do not realy know what happened at Easter. Whatever it was it was profound. These folks were trying to make sense out of what they did not understand. The lacked the language and the conceptualizing ability to do so. They were not stupid people they simply did not have the advanced knowledge we have today.


To say it was not a lie is to say that dead men can walk about and that a God would use a human woman to reproduce a half breed chimera God.

Something profound might have happened but it was likely just a great drug crop that year.

One would have to be really high to believe that dead men can walk about and that a God would use a human woman to reproduce a half breed chimera God.

The supernatural is for children and seeking God is an adult job.

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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1484142 wrote: It is very difficult and dangerous to judge the past on the basis of our present education and knowledge. The handling of relics was based on the idea that part of the mystery of God was in some human bodies and that if one touched the relics some of that wisdom or knowledge would transfer to them. How can we laugh at them when they were in deep belief.


Deep belief while in a mushroom trance should be laughed at if the person does not return with something other than the same old same old about God.

Some of us can see the perfection of our systems without drugs.

Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

become acquainted with will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty

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Post by Ted »

It seems to me that you are still judging with hind site . Next consideration is Did Jesus actually say that or was it words put into Jesus mouth by the evangelists who wrote the gospels. That is in all likelihood what the evangelists put into Jesus mouth. According to several scholars 80 % of the words supposedly spoken by Jesus cannot be traced back to the historical Jesus.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1484190 wrote: It seems to me that you are still judging with hind site . Next consideration is Did Jesus actually say that or was it words put into Jesus mouth by the evangelists who wrote the gospels. That is in all likelihood what the evangelists put into Jesus mouth. According to several scholars 80 % of the words supposedly spoken by Jesus cannot be traced back to the historical Jesus.


I would put it at 100% since we will never be able to prove that a miracle working Jesus ever existed. In Gnostic Christianity, we attribute all the wisdom sayings to other older traditions. Our myths say that Jesus never died.

To me, what is said is what is important. Not who said it.

What Jesus said was not particularly unique and mch put into his mouth was anti-love and immoral.

Midrash shows this.

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Post by Ted »

A failure to understand midrash. As a Christian I do not believe in the miracle stories as history but as midrash.
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Post by Ted »

In which case what I say is the truth and it doesn't matter who I am. Now with due respect I believe that to be nonsense. I suppose I could claim to be God then and folks might buy into that.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1484229 wrote: A failure to understand midrash. As a Christian I do not believe in the miracle stories as history but as midrash.


??

I see midrash as a process of inquiry and discussion.

It is not to be understood but done or practiced.

Define your take on midrash for me please.

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Post by Ted »

In antiquity midrash was a method of interpretation and also a style of writing especially by the rabbinic scholars. It is open to interpretation. There can be many valid interpretations to each midrashic writing. (The Rev. Dr. Rabbi Robert Daum of the Vancouver School of Theology) The Christmas story and the crucifixion stories are midrash. Yes Jesus was born and he was eventually crucified. He was crucified for being a threat to the empire also known as treason.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1484242 wrote: In antiquity midrash was a method of interpretation and also a style of writing especially by the rabbinic scholars. It is open to interpretation. There can be many valid interpretations to each midrashic writing. (The Rev. Dr. Rabbi Robert Daum of the Vancouver School of Theology) The Christmas story and the crucifixion stories are midrash. Yes Jesus was born and he was eventually crucified. He was crucified for being a threat to the empire also known as treason.


Do you mean the Roman Empire or the Jewish one?

If you meant Rome, I do not agree.

Remember that it, in this myth, it was the Jews who had Jesus' blood on their head, as the Jews called it.

G D Christians sure used that Jewish saying against the Jews and that phrase was also used to justify the holocaust.

This is why I tend to believe that the scriptures were doctored by Rome which needed to take the wind out of Jewish sails.

One thing that I cannot understand is why Jews did not write more history showing the atrocities that Christianity put them through in the days prior to the holocaust. Including the kidnapping of Jewish children who were quickly baptised, --- which to Christians, --- meant that they could not be returned to their parents. That was just prior to the Inquisition.

If Jews would have done more reporting of these types of things, history might have been kinder to them.

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Post by Ted »

I think it is quite clear that Jesus was born a Jew and died a devout Jew. He did not want to start a new church. Like Luther he slimly wanted to change some things. No he was crucified by the Romans for treason. A lot of atrocities were committed by people of all the faiths. Today we call them extremists. They exist in all the great faiths.

As we progress from gospel to gospel we see in the gospels a progression in the nature of Jesus and the Jews. The Jews were not allowed to execute under Roman Law. Those writing in the name of Paul tried as time progressed to sanitize Paul to make him more acceptable to the Romans. Made it safer for the Jewish and Gentile Christians. Not all of the Jews turned against Jesus, just the extremists????
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Post by LarsMac »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1484245 wrote: Do you mean the Roman Empire or the Jewish one?

If you meant Rome, I do not agree.

Remember that it, in this myth, it was the Jews who had Jesus' blood on their head, as the Jews called it.

G D Christians sure used that Jewish saying against the Jews and that phrase was also used to justify the holocaust.

This is why I tend to believe that the scriptures were doctored by Rome which needed to take the wind out of Jewish sails.

One thing that I cannot understand is why Jews did not write more history showing the atrocities that Christianity put them through in the days prior to the holocaust. Including the kidnapping of Jewish children who were quickly baptised, --- which to Christians, --- meant that they could not be returned to their parents. That was just prior to the Inquisition.

If Jews would have done more reporting of these types of things, history might have been kinder to them.

Regards

DL


Most of the Jews were wiped out, or run off during siege of Jerusalem AD 70, and destruction of Palestine. Some records were made, but the principle records were made by Roman Citizens like Josephus, but they were decidedly pro-Roman.

At that time, Yeshua ben Yusef, as the man was known in those days, was a minor player in the events of the time.

Much of the documentation we have is based upon the writings of scribes and eye witnesses who recorded what they perceived. Their records were gathered and copied, by scribes over the decades. I doubt that any original writings actually exist, today. most of what we have is copies of copies of copies of an original manuscript.

However, the simple message of this Yeshua was not unlike the message that Gautama Siddhartha relayed to the people in his land.

Far too many people of the last 2000 years - Including the alleged authors of the first five books of the NT, and of course Paul - inserted their own political and philosophical agenda into the final product. And that continues even today.

It is a typical human response. Look at the many variations on the Buddha's teaching one can find. And Islam, with nearly a century to catch up, has fragmented into several factions.

The Christians share only the claim that they follow the teachings of the Christ, and very little more. Each faction, and cult seems to have their own interpretation what the teacher meant by his words.

In fact, I would suggest that if the three of us, you Ted and I were to sit down and read a specific passage from the same book, we would likely come up with at least three interpretations of that passage.

How can we ever expect any common belief?
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1484256 wrote: I think it is quite clear that Jesus was born a Jew and died a devout Jew. He did not want to start a new church. Like Luther he slimly wanted to change some things. No he was crucified by the Romans for treason. A lot of atrocities were committed by people of all the faiths. Today we call them extremists. They exist in all the great faiths.

As we progress from gospel to gospel we see in the gospels a progression in the nature of Jesus and the Jews. The Jews were not allowed to execute under Roman Law. Those writing in the name of Paul tried as time progressed to sanitize Paul to make him more acceptable to the Romans. Made it safer for the Jewish and Gentile Christians. Not all of the Jews turned against Jesus, just the extremists????


I don't know if we can ever know that for sure but I see it as the Temple hierarchy protecting their turf.

I give a literal and real Jesus less and less credibility over time as my research continues. Not just based on my Gnostic Christian tradition but from the experts as well as what others are coming up with.

Here are a couple of my latest brain teasers. Apologies if I have shown them before. I am like an absent minded professor with a poor memory. The first I may have given before but not the second.





There is a longer version to this last that is 1.5 hrs. long. I did not want to presume that you had the time for it but it shows the archetypal angle more and even some of the iconography that led the authors to their conclusions. You will see it if you view the one given.

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Post by Ted »

The world renound premier Jesus scholars such a J Crossan, M. Borg and a host of others seem to have no problem with the existence of the historical Jesus.. But hey you are entitled to your opinion. For a long time many said Nazareth never existed. Well in the last few years the Nazareth of antiquity was discovered. Troy was thought to be a myth but it to was discovered, The next thing you know they will be saying I'm a myth. LOL
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1484295 wrote: The world renound premier Jesus scholars such a J Crossan, M. Borg and a host of others seem to have no problem with the existence of the historical Jesus.. But hey you are entitled to your opinion. For a long time many said Nazareth never existed. Well in the last few years the Nazareth of antiquity was discovered. Troy was thought to be a myth but it to was discovered, The next thing you know they will be saying I'm a myth. LOL


Jesus, like Troy, might have a basis in reality but Troy is certainly not the Troy depicted in scriptures. There was not even a wall to be blow down.

I have admitted to the possibility of Jesus the Nazareen but that Jesus was a man. Not some chimer half breed God who would have to be a product of God using another man's wife, becoming a deadbeat dad as well as his using incest and bestiality to produce himself from his own mother.

That is how stupid it gets if Jesus was the bastard son of God.

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Post by Ted »

Troy was thought for years to be a myth but it was discovered in reality. Jesus was a man not any more divine than the rest of us and since we are part of who God is and God is a part of who we are I guess that means we are all some what divine. But then all life is sacred.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1484418 wrote: Troy was thought for years to be a myth but it was discovered in reality. Jesus was a man not any more divine than the rest of us and since we are part of who God is and God is a part of who we are I guess that means we are all some what divine. But then all life is sacred.


I agree with the sentiment and view but not the language because as you indicate by saying that everything is sacred, then nothing is special as sacred is what everything is.

I recall some years ago now that many of the teens and adults were using the word love for everything. They loved their shoes shirts and everything else they owned. The word love became meaningless.

I have claimed apotheosis and tell people that if they are going to go by the usual description, to take divine out of it as divine is a characteristic that can only be given to one and one cannot claim for ones self.

Like the Jewish Divine Council, those elected to it were given the designation and did not announce it of themselves.

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Post by Ted »

It would appear that God saw all that He created and called it very good. I believe that all of God's creation is sacred. Just because some use the word "Love" for their shoes does not destroy its original meaning. Words do gain additional meanings all the time. For instance that word fxxxK has acquired more meanings then it had years ago. Now one can alnost make a paragraph out of it.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1484575 wrote: It would appear that God saw all that He created and called it very good.


Appear to whom?

Who was there to record this?

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Post by Ted »

The myth writers. To me all of creation is special.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1484842 wrote: The myth writers. To me all of creation is special.


Ditto.

It is heaven and hell.

Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

become acquainted with will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

Heaven for the spiritually rich and hell for those in poverty.

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Post by Ted »

And what does that "poverty" mean.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1484862 wrote: And what does that "poverty" mean.


Those who have not become acquainted with themselves.

IOW. No gnosis to a Gnostic Christian.



You cannot see the good and evil in others or what is motivating us if you cannot see it in yourself.

To see it takes all our brain but few try to activate both hemisphere. It takes a seeker to seek it, and unfortunately, few Idol worshiping Christians and Muslims are seekers so Gnosis escapes them and that is clearly shown by their morals which are based on ignorance of the self.



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Post by Ted »

The idea of a person understanding themselves is fine. But I do not believe it fits all folks. It is true of some but not all.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1485059 wrote: The idea of a person understanding themselves is fine. But I do not believe it fits all folks. It is true of some but not all.


True. The level of stupidity/intelligence in mankind is quite broad and some are more stupid than others.

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Post by Ted »

The word "stupidity" is not the best choice of words. To me it implies that a person acts in a deliberate and knowing way without much thought. Thos who don have as much intelligence do the best they can and do not need the put down. especially religions are founded on "justice and compassion. Where is the compassion for those through no fault of their own are less intelligent
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1485078 wrote: The word "stupidity" is not the best choice of words. To me it implies that a person acts in a deliberate and knowing way without much thought. Thos who don have as much intelligence do the best they can and do not need the put down. especially religions are founded on "justice and compassion. Where is the compassion for those through no fault of their own are less intelligent


Not in a knowing way, that is why we can say they are stupid.

"especially religions are founded on "justice and compassion."

Really?

What is the cornerstone of Christianity?

Is it not that Jesus died for us?

Ignoring of course that he, in his alter ego of father, condemned us in the first place.

If so, do you think punishing the innocent instead of the guilty to be a good form of justice?

Regards

DL
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LarsMac
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Jesus of Nazareth

Post by LarsMac »

It is always our own actions and speech that condemn us. That is the thing that most, if not all Christians miss about the the stories in the Bible.



And the cornerstone of Christianity?

It is more along the lines of what Jesus told the woman accused of adultery. "Neither do I condemn thee. Go, and sin no more."
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Jesus of Nazareth

Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

LarsMac;1485108 wrote: It is always our own actions and speech that condemn us. That is the thing that most, if not all Christians miss about the the stories in the Bible.



And the cornerstone of Christianity?

It is more along the lines of what Jesus told the woman accused of adultery. "Neither do I condemn thee. Go, and sin no more."


Eh. No.

Jesus may have said that but Christian dogma says that she was already condemned, Original Sin, as we all are who have not accepted Jesus as savior.

To suggest that God condemns no one says that there should not be a hell as none would ever get there.

Jesus may not have condemned that woman but Jesus, as his alter ego father, condemned us all.



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DL
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Jesus of Nazareth

Post by LarsMac »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1485114 wrote: Eh. No.

Jesus may have said that but Christian dogma says that she was already condemned, Original Sin, as we all are who have not accepted Jesus as savior.

To suggest that God condemns no one says that there should not be a hell as none would ever get there.

Jesus may not have condemned that woman but Jesus, as his alter ego father, condemned us all.



Regards

DL


Seriously?

I really thought you had grown past that.

I guess I was mistaken.

Nevermind
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Jesus of Nazareth

Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

LarsMac;1485115 wrote: Seriously?

I really thought you had grown past that.

I guess I was mistaken.

Nevermind


Outgrow what?



That is pure Christian dogma so I do not know what you expected.

Those are not my beliefs but Christian ones.

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DL
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Jesus of Nazareth

Post by LarsMac »

So, who around here gives a fiddlyfart about Dogma?

(Well, besides you, apparently)
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Jesus of Nazareth

Post by Ted »

Look after the plank in your own eye before you try to deal with the sliver in another's eye.
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Jesus of Nazareth

Post by LarsMac »

So two people who claim to be anti-dogma, only want to discuss dogma.

That's a new twist.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir

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