Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by Ahso! »

Link

An international study has found children in religious families are meaner than their godless peers. The report, published today in the journal Current Â*Biology, challenges notions that equate piety with charity.

“Religion and morality are two different things,” said lead author Jean Decety, a Chicago University neuroscientist.What say you?
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1489014 wrote: Link

What say you?


I agree. “Religion and morality are two different things,”
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1489017 wrote: I agree. “Religion and morality are two different things,”Very thoughtful. Thank you.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by LarsMac »

What is it you'd like me to say?

I mean you can read about all of these pop science study findings all over the place.

I figured out a long time ago that the church-going kids could be assholes. Town I grew up in, it was always the Baptists' kids that picked on me.

So, now this supposed study was done in Chicago, and the article is published in Australia? I think I'll wait for the findings to be published in the science Pubs and gets peer reviewed before really taking very seriously.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by Ahso! »

The article states it was an international study.

In the study, more than 1100 kids aged between five and 12 were asked to share stickers with anonymous schoolmates. The subjects lived in North America, the Middle East, South Africa and China, and included Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists and Hindus.It's not that I'd like you to say anything in particular, I was hoping to start a discussion, that's all.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by LarsMac »

Well, it's an interesting article, but journalism being what it is today, I don't really think there is enough data in the article to draw anything more than a biased conclusion.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by Ahso! »

You might be correct for all I know, and I do appreciate your willingness to want to participate in the thread. Why not just take the article for what it does contain and simply discuss it?
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by tude dog »

In the study, more than 1100 kids aged between five and 12 were asked to share stickers with anonymous schoolmates. The subjects lived in North America, the Middle East, South Africa and China, and included Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists and Hindus.


Kinda difficult to take this seriously.

1100 kids of 5 different religions living in 4 very different regions.



I call BS alert.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by Ahso! »

tude dog;1489031 wrote: Kinda difficult to take this seriously.

1100 kids of 5 different religions living in 4 very different regions.

I call BS alert.Okay. Now make your case.

By using children from various religions and a wide geographic net, it does lend plausibility to the idea that it's religion as a whole and not any particular sect/cult.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by tude dog »

Ahso!;1489032 wrote: Okay. Now make your case.


I just did.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by Ahso! »

tude dog;1489034 wrote: I just did.No you didn't. What you did was call something BS without any explanation or reason other than a *****ing meter.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1489030 wrote: You might be correct for all I know, and I do appreciate your willingness to want to participate in the thread. Why not just take the article for what it does contain and simply discuss it?


What is it you want to discuss. The article, itself? The claims? Personal reaction to the claims? The findings of the original article are interesting, but somewhat anecdotal. It certainly is worth further study, be we draw absolute conclusions from it.

The Headline is almost comical.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by Ahso! »

JFC. Never mind.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by LarsMac »

Well, you tell us what the article means to you. Were you just trying to troll the religious nuts?
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by Mickiel »

One study finds they are more selfish too.

Religious Kids Far More Selfish Than Atheist Kids, New Study Finds - FailedMessiah.com
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by FourPart »

The title itself is ambiguous. It doesn't indicate which 'mean'-ing of 'meaner' it refers to.

Meaner - Stingier

Meaner - More lowly

Meaner - More average

Meaner - Nastier

Any one of them could grammatically apply & make equally as little sense.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by LarsMac »

Children grow up to be adults, and take their nature along.

That does kinda speak to the behavior of the religious right, a bit.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by FourPart »

I was raised in a Right Wing family. I had been brainwashed into thinking Right Wing was the truth. I'm even ashamed to say that when I first voted it was Tory (although Robert Kilroy-Silk was the candidate who got in) when Maggie first became PM. After I left home I saw things in the real world & became the Socialist I am proud to be now.

In many ways the dogma in which someone is raised has many parallels between Religion & Political thinking. They both come down to brainwashing. Only if the brainwashee manages to break the ties that bind him / her to the brainwashers do they get the chance to see things as they really are.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by Smaug »

Ahso!;1489042 wrote: JFC. Never mind.


Blasphemy in 'shorthand'! Pretty smart, eh?........ Not. Especially if you want to involve religious folk in this discussion. Or do you just want to denigrate and belittle their beliefs? It's no skin off my nose as I'm a Pagan, but I thought I'd enquire....
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by FourPart »

Smaug;1489070 wrote: Blasphemy in 'shorthand'! Pretty smart, eh?........ Not. Especially if you want to involve religious folk in this discussion. Or do you just want to denigrate and belittle their beliefs? It's no skin off my nose as I'm a Pagan, but I thought I'd enquire....
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by Smaug »

FourPart;1489072 wrote: Maybe he just can't spell Kennedy.


Maybe:wah:! Mind you, it HAS got seven letters....
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by gmc »

It's hardly the first time someone has noticed the godly are a bunch of ****s.

Address to the Unco Guid

by Robert Burns

OR THE RIGIDLY RIGHTEOUS



My Son, these maxims make a rule,

An’ lump them ay thegither :

The Rigid Righteous is a fool,

The Rigid Wise anither ;

The cleanest corn that e’er was dight

May hae some pyles o’ caff in ;

So ne’er a fellow-creature slight

For random fits o’ daffin


Robert Burns Country: Address To The Unco Guid, Or The Rigidly Righteous:

or if you want a translation

Address to the Unco Guid

It's hardly a big surprise now is it?

posted by larsmac

Children grow up to be adults, and take their nature along.

That does kinda speak to the behavior of the religious right, a bit.




It becomes a cultural thing though doesn't it, it's very hard to stand up and be different when you are surrounded by a society that condemns you for challenging religious belief - being a freethinker is downright anti-social if not actually dangerous in some places so maybe the rise of secularism is a tribute to the basic decency human nature .
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by Ahso! »

These early years (5 through 12) are particularly important because this is a time when major web connections in the brain are beginning to form and the influence that the child is subject to affects those "web connections". Of course the brain doesn't finish growing and developing until one is in their early to mid twenties.

I've been looking for any unbiased studies that can show that religiously raised children are more empathetic or moral. Zero so far.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by Ahso! »

FourPart;1489058 wrote: The title itself is ambiguous. It doesn't indicate which 'mean'-ing of 'meaner' it refers to.

Meaner - Stingier

Meaner - More lowly

Meaner - More average

Meaner - Nastier

Any one of them could grammatically apply & make equally as little sense.From a child's perspective all those adjectives might be grouped as "mean".
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1489064 wrote: Children grow up to be adults, and take their nature along.

That does kinda speak to the behavior of the religious right, a bit."[N]ature"? I'd call it indoctrination - or perhaps "conditioning" at best.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by Ahso! »

Mickiel;1489054 wrote: One study finds they are more selfish too.

Religious Kids Far More Selfish Than Atheist Kids, New Study Finds - FailedMessiah.comThat's actually another article on the same study. But thank you for the research as well as the link.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1489024 wrote: What is it you'd like me to say?

I mean you can read about all of these pop science study findings all over the place.

I figured out a long time ago that the church-going kids could be assholes. Town I grew up in, it was always the Baptists' kids that picked on me.

So, now this supposed study was done in Chicago, and the article is published in Australia? I think I'll wait for the findings to be published in the science Pubs and gets peer reviewed before really taking very seriously.http://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf ... 1167-7.pdf

Not that I think you'll actually read the thing, mind you. I try to keep things simple with short articles whenever possible so that anyone might be able to participate.

SUMMARY

Prosocial behaviors are ubiquitous across societies.

They emerge early in ontogeny [1] and are shaped by

interactions between genes and culture [2, 3]. Over

the course of middle childhood, sharing approaches

equality in distribution [4]. Since 5.8 billion humans,

representing 84% of the worldwide population, identify

as religious [5], religion is arguably one prevalent

facet of culture that influences the development

and expression of prosociality. While it is generally

accepted that religion contours people’s moral judgments

and prosocial behavior, the relation between

religiosity and morality is a contentious one. Here,

we assessed altruism and third-party evaluation of

scenarios depicting interpersonal harm in 1,170 children

aged between 5 and 12 years in six countries

(Canada, China, Jordan, Turkey, USA, and South Africa),

the religiousness of their household, and

parent-reported child empathy and sensitivity to justice.

Across all countries, parents in religious households

reported that their children expressed more

empathy and sensitivity for justice in everyday life

than non-religious parents. However, religiousness

was inversely predictive of children’s altruism and

positively correlated with their punitive tendencies.

Together these results reveal the similarity across

countries in how religion negatively influences children’s

altruism, challenging the view that religiosity

facilitates prosocial behavior.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by FourPart »

I don't get why it should take a study to realise the patently obvious. If a couple of babies, one born of Muslim parents, another born of Christian parents are adopted at birth and raised in a totally non-Religious environment, then neither is likely to end up being a Religious extremist - except, perhaps by external indoctrination at a later age. Of course children's attitudes are shaped by those of their parents - or, at least, the ones that raise them. No-one needs a study to see that.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1489084 wrote: http://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf ... 1167-7.pdf

Not that I think you'll actually read the thing, mind you. I try to keep things simple with short articles whenever possible so that anyone might be able to participate.


Well, you posted the link to the article, and asked to discuss the article. I had to go find the study that the article was based on.

After I found it, I have been reading the study. So you want to discuss the article you posted, or do you want to discuss the study and its findings?
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Post by Ahso! »

FFS, just post your thoughts in a mature manner.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1489102 wrote: FFS, just post your thoughts in a mature manner.


I think that I already did that.

What are your thoughts on it? You brought it up, after all.
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1489107 wrote: I think that I already did that.

What are your thoughts on it? You brought it up, after all.You did? After all that reading since this thread began, nothing has changed in your mind. That says a lot about you and your purpose to be in this thread.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1489115 wrote: You did? After all that reading since this thread began, nothing has changed in your mind. That says a lot about you and your purpose to be in this thread.


What should change my mind? The article is poorly written, and suggests far more than the actual study really shows.

Children with some religious upbringing are more sensitive to injustice than those without religion, while being more judgmental over the infraction, and at the same time, less altruistic. But the data shows the results for all are with in one point. And as we see from different articles written about the study, people can make what they wish of the results, without attending to the actual data.

And all this time, you have yet to present your own take on the article, or the study, or the interpretations made of the data.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by Ahso! »

I offered the article and didn't offer any criticism with it because I see the correlation. I think if you re-read what I originally quoted you'd see that the article says exactly what the claim is. I'll post it again and explain what I mean:

An international study has found children in religious families are meaner than their godless peers. The report, published today in the journal Current �*Biology, challenges notions that equate piety with charity.Emphasis mine! As the quote points out - the assumption is that religious upbringing far outweighs non-religious upbringing in the area of charity, charity being an altruistic attribute. The study, one would presume, would show far greater charity on the religious side of the equation. But low and behold, not only is that not the case, but in fact, non-religious upbringing actually beats it out. It may be by only a small amount as you point out, but that's the surprise of the outcome and thus the headline. The point is that most people were hoping the results to be close, though expecting greater on the religious side. See the point?
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by Ted »

I can speak from my experiences. I was principal of an elementary school. Nearby was a "Christian School. The bus drivers hated picking the religious school kids up. It was obvious that it was having little positive to be had in the Christian school. Once the kids boarded the bus all hell broke loose. They were caged all day and once out of school they felt free to let loose on the bus. The drivers said they had little troupble with the kids from the public school.

At university in the Old Testament course was a young woman who was raised in a very fundamentalist family. The truths being presented were so disturbing to her that she had a nervous breakdown and had to withdraw from the university. She was so used to being taught from the Bible and being told it was the absolute word of God that she became unable to think beyond her religious up bringing. As a teacher and a Christian I came to realize that religion had no place in a public school situation and that kids should go to the public school system. A course in comparative religions would be the best approach as they learn about different cultures.

I do not think telling one side of the story is appropriate in a public school system. Pvt. schools are no better..
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Post by Ahso! »

Telling one side of what story, Ted?
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Post by Ted »

The Christian story or the Buddhist story or the Muslim story. Religion very much has some roots in culture. By learning others stories we learn more about our life now and the lives of the past.
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Post by Ahso! »

Ted;1489148 wrote: The Christian story or the Buddhist story or the Muslim story. Religion very much has some roots in culture. By learning others stories we learn more about our life now and the lives of the past.That would be a Religion Course, wouldn't it? Religion courses are offered as electives in college. The K-12 curriculum is already overloaded with courses. You're in Canada, aren't you? How does the Canadian school system do Religion?
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by Ahso! »

Also, Ted, what is the "one side" that's being taught that concerns you?
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Post by LarsMac »

So, I think, after ready the study, that the article is, firstly, incorrect. While there is a difference between the three categories, the difference is relatively minute.

Small enough that one could just as easily conclude that there is little or no discernible difference between how a Christian, or Muslim, or Atheist kid reacts to the particular exercises. Now, while that in itself denies the presumption that religious children are more compassionate, Empathetic and altruistic, the authors of the study bent the report to use the data to say something else, entirely, that the data fails to prove.

Children, by nature, are all of those things. Altruistic, Empathetic, and Compassionate. Those tend to change over the child's life span. A 5-yr-old will be more so that a 12 yr-old.

I think that the data should have been collected, and reported by specific age groups. You know, like 5-7, 8-10, and 11-12. Something like that. It could be a fascinating study. It would also be useful to include a large enough sampling to also include other major religious groups.

I expect, however, that the final data would probably end up proving that religious background at that age would prove to have little effect.

Though I would expect some increase in the difference for the older age groups.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1489187 wrote:

Children, by nature, are all of those things. Altruistic, Empathetic, and Compassionate. Those tend to change over the child's life span. A 5-yr-old will be more so that a 12 yr-old.Citation?

LarsMac;1489187 wrote: I think that the data should have been collected, and reported by specific age groups. You know, like 5-7, 8-10, and 11-12. Something like that. It could be a fascinating study. It would also be useful to include a large enough sampling to also include other major religious groups.I'm sure that could be pulled from the study. But the fact that the age group is wide avoids criticism of being too age restrictive.
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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1489189 wrote: Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post

Children, by nature, are all of those things. Altruistic, Empathetic, and Compassionate. Those tend to change over the child's life span. A 5-yr-old will be more so that a 12 yr-old.Citation?
You read the report upon which the article was based. Yes?

Ahso!;1489189 wrote:

Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post

I think that the data should have been collected, and reported by specific age groups. You know, like 5-7, 8-10, and 11-12. Something like that. It could be a fascinating study. It would also be useful to include a large enough sampling to also include other major religious groups.


I'm sure that could be pulled from the study. But the fact that the age group is wide avoids criticism of being too age restrictive. Yes it could be, had the authors actually published the raw data with the report. I am sure it can be found with more digging. However from my suggestion, their sample was far too small. Which actually speaks to my objection. For such a small sample group, their results hardly support the claims made in in the articles about the study.



Some notions have formed in my little head, though about the whole thing. I have been in a number of church and religious organizations over the years. I have been in groups who make their mission to go out into the general population and help people specifically NOT of their same religious affiliation. I have also been in groups for whom "Charity begins at home" and they only offer help and relief services to members of their own denomination.

So, the levels of compassion, and altruism demonstrated by the parents and other familiar adults would most likely affect the children's attitudes and behavior.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by Ahso! »

Perhaps I missed where the study said or even suggested

Children, by nature, are all of those things. Altruistic, Empathetic, and Compassionate. Those tend to change over the child's life span. A 5-yr-old will be more so that a 12 yr-old.Would you mind either directing me to it or quoting it for me?
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

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LarsMac;1489190 wrote: Some notions have formed in my little head, though about the whole thing. I have been in a number of church and religious organizations over the years. I have been in groups who make their mission to go out into the general population and help people specifically NOT of their same religious affiliation. I have also been in groups for whom "Charity begins at home" and they only offer help and relief services to members of their own denomination.

So, the levels of compassion, and altruism demonstrated by the parents and other familiar adults would most likely affect the children's attitudes and behavior.Anecdotal. Unreliable and opinionated. Got any studies or research with hard objective facts to back it up?
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1489192 wrote: Anecdotal. Unreliable and opinionated. Got any studies or research with hard objective facts to back it up?


Very good. Yes, that was anecdotal. Boy, can't fool you for a minute. Can I. (well, there was a supposition in that last sentence.)
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

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LarsMac;1489187 wrote: Children, by nature, are all of those things. Altruistic, Empathetic, and Compassionate. Those tend to change over the child's life span. A 5-yr-old will be more so that a 12 yr-old.Pulled from the study: this would contradict your personal theory.

Studies of altruistic behavior have documented

that children in preschool tend to share less than a third of their

resources and by late childhood share nearly half [6]
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

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Personal experience: I went to my girlfriend's Baptist Church in high school when I was dating her. She seemed like a real sweetheart to me up to then. After church, though, she and her sister launched into a venomous tirade against all the other girls at the church. It was horrifyingly vicious, in a very Jeckle-and-Hyde way. I stopped dating her right after that.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

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Saint_;1489222 wrote: Personal experience: I went to my girlfriend's Baptist Church in high school when I was dating her. She seemed like a real sweetheart to me up to then. After church, though, she and her sister launched into a venomous tirade against all the other girls at the church. It was horrifyingly vicious, in a very Jeckle-and-Hyde way. I stopped dating her right after that.She was probably trying to turn you off to the competition. Our genes combined with our environment can drive us to some rather unpleasant behavior. IOW, she was hoping she'd be the one you'd reproduce with. It was purely driven by hormones, or what we call infatuation.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1489221 wrote: Pulled from the study: this would contradict your personal theory.


show me how that is true, please.
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Religious children meaner than agnostic and atheist kids, study finds

Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1489230 wrote: show me how that is true, please.That what's true? my statement? The study gives a reference of where the information comes from - I'll get that for you. >http://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090- ... 6/abstract
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