Jesus and his sacrifice are Satan's test of man's morality.

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Gnostic Christian Bishop
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Jesus and his sacrifice are Satan's test of man's morality.

Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1492464 wrote: Bryn how true that is.


It is true but is not the case here or he would have shown the out of context.

Neither of you have touched the moral aspects as you both know you are on the wrong side of this Muslim issue.

Regards

DL
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Jesus and his sacrifice are Satan's test of man's morality.

Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1492470 wrote: Gnostic fortunately that is only your opinion. Many others don't accept that. It reminds me of the boy who thought that everyone was out of step but himself.


Yes. Many accept the notion of vicarious redemption as evil and immoral, as they

continue to support the evil teachers and religion that teaches that poor morality.

I will let you tell us why religious people support immoral tenets.

Regards

DL
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1492473 wrote: Morality varies from time to time and from country to country. Whose morality are we discussing? The nonexistent Satan is testing us?? OK whatever.


We are discussing your morality.

We are here and now.

Regards

DL
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Post by FourPart »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1492493 wrote:

Nice that you support such barbaric people and their immoral ideology.

Regards

DL


This could well be the script for one of your postings. The similarities are striking.

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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

FourPart;1492520 wrote: This could well be the script for one of your postings. The similarities are striking.




I don't care and of course hate will look the same regardless of the target.

The point is that the religions at issue deserves our hate.

Why are you supporting immoral religions and the people who are in them?

Why do you not love the people, --- and hate the religion, --- enough to correct them?

Regards

DL
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Post by FourPart »

The reason I am anti Religion is because it stirs up the likes of you who use it to spout claims of 'immorality' without any justification for their claims.

I have repeatedly asked you to define what YOU see as moral. You have refused.

I have repeatedly asked you what your solution is. You have refused.

Each time you are asked a straight question you hedge the issue & come out with the same old rhetoric which precisely mimics that in the previous video, only using Muslims instead of Jews. We are all too aware of what the Final Solution was in this instance was - and what was you response to this being pointed out? "I don't care". I take it, then, that your solution to the issue in hand is to open up all the Gas Chambers again. Your campaign speeches are the same. The hate speeches are the same. One can only presume the preferred solution is the same.
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FourPart;1492530 wrote: The reason I am anti Religion is because it stirs up the likes of you who use it to spout claims of 'immorality' without any justification for their claims.

I have repeatedly asked you to define what YOU see as moral. You have refused.

I have repeatedly asked you what your solution is. You have refused.

Each time you are asked a straight question you hedge the issue & come out with the same old rhetoric which precisely mimics that in the previous video, only using Muslims instead of Jews. We are all too aware of what the Final Solution was in this instance was - and what was you response to this being pointed out? "I don't care". I take it, then, that your solution to the issue in hand is to open up all the Gas Chambers again. Your campaign speeches are the same. The hate speeches are the same. One can only presume the preferred solution is the same.


Your questions are way too open ended and are nearly impossible to answer.

My justification for saying that Christianity and Islam are both immoral religions begins with substitutionary atonement for Christianity and the desire of Islam to silence all those who would criticize the prophet.

I would have thought that by now you would know my pet peeves.







Regards

DL
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Post by FourPart »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1492536 wrote: Your questions are way too open ended and are nearly impossible to answer.

My justification for saying that Christianity and Islam are both immoral religions begins with substitutionary atonement for Christianity and the desire of Islam to silence all those who would criticize the prophet.

I would have thought that by now you would know my pet peeves.







Regards

DL


And yet again you refuse to answer a simple question. You continue to spout that Christianity & Islam are both immoral, yet you will not say just what is moral & what is immoral. Do you find drinking moral? Do you find sex outside of marriage moral? Do you find homosexuality moral? Do you find the eating of pork moral? Do you find capital punishment moral? Do you find any form of punishment moral? Do you find the genocide of an immoral culture as moral? The list of possible examples is endless & you have not been able to come up with one, let alone any justification for your belief as to why. Without doing so your argument is as valid as "Because I said so - Nerr!!"
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Post by gmc »

Religion is neither moral nor immoral because it's a human construct used by those who wish to have power and control. Even if you believe, as many do, and would argue that moralilty comes from god then it's still open to interpretation in other words it's a human construct used by those who would have power and control. The followers of isis are moral although you may consider them immoral.



Totalitarian

adjective

1.

of or relating to a centralized government that does not tolerate parties of differing opinion and that exercises dictatorial control over many aspects of life.

2.

exercising control over the freedom, will, or thought of others; authoritarian; autocratic.

noun

3.

an adherent of totalitarianism.




A twentieth century term to describe a political phenomenon but the notion comes from religion. Swop submission to an omnipotent being for submission to the state and you get the origins the political version was grounded in the belief that history moves toward an immutable future in accordance with knowable laws communist theory has a similar belief in an inexorable force guiding human events. Stalin made no bones about where his inspiration came from when designing his state - he was educated at a christian semimnary as was hitler you can read for yourself how the experience affected them. Japan, people seem to forget was also a xcountry where religion ruiled with the enmperor as it's head albeit his spititual authority was used by rather cynical temporal authorities.

ISIS, the taliban al queada all are variation on totalitarianism using religion for their own ends as does Saudi Arabia, the home of wahibism although for some reason they donlt come in for much criticism. Scientology mormonism fundamentalist christrians in the USA they all have the same characteristics.

Religion has no morality beyond what people ascribe to it. Amoral rather than immoral.

Life would be less confusing gnostic if you completed your journey and admitted you are an atheist and stopped feeling guilty about it.
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My point exactly. In theory Religion is Spiritual, guided by a set of morals laid down in whatever the scriptures of that Religion may be. Followers of that Religion will see those rules to be moral. Different Religions have different moral values. There is no right or wrong.

In reality, though, Religion is a major Political thing, using the banner of Religion to control the masses. They take the morality of the spiritualist side of Religion & add their own interpretations to it in order to gain power. This is true of nearly all Religions. You even find different interpretations of those morals within the same Religions. Catholics have one set of morals. Protestants have another. Sunni have one set of morals. Shia another. If these morals are all different & opposing, how can all be considered Immoral? If a coin lands Head up & you say that is wrong, can you also say it is wrong if it lands Tails up? For or against one or the other. You can't have it both ways, and before you can claim what is right or what is wrong you must first specify what it is that you consider to be right or wrong.

In Politics the different parties put forward their Manifestos. I'm a Socialist & a Labour supporter. However, I don't agree with everything on the Labour Manifesto. Similarly I even agree with some of the points on the Tory Manifesto. These points can be seen as morals. What works for one may not work for another. Does that mean that either are necessarily right or wrong. It's just a question of what works for them.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

FourPart;1492556 wrote: My point exactly. In theory Religion is Spiritual, guided by a set of morals laid down in whatever the scriptures of that Religion may be. Followers of that Religion will see those rules to be moral. Different Religions have different moral values. There is no right or wrong.

In reality, though, Religion is a major Political thing, using the banner of Religion to control the masses. They take the morality of the spiritualist side of Religion & add their own interpretations to it in order to gain power. This is true of nearly all Religions. You even find different interpretations of those morals within the same Religions. Catholics have one set of morals. Protestants have another. Sunni have one set of morals. Shia another. If these morals are all different & opposing, how can all be considered Immoral? If a coin lands Head up & you say that is wrong, can you also say it is wrong if it lands Tails up? For or against one or the other. You can't have it both ways, and before you can claim what is right or what is wrong you must first specify what it is that you consider to be right or wrong.

In Politics the different parties put forward their Manifestos. I'm a Socialist & a Labour supporter. However, I don't agree with everything on the Labour Manifesto. Similarly I even agree with some of the points on the Tory Manifesto. These points can be seen as morals. What works for one may not work for another. Does that mean that either are necessarily right or wrong. It's just a question of what works for them.


Given the following amendments I would agree wholeheartedly :-

In reality, though, Religionthe Church is a major Political thing, using the banner of Religion to control the masses. They take the morality of the spiritualist side of Religion & add their own interpretations to it in order to gain power. This is true of nearly all ReligionsChurches. You even find different interpretations of those morals within the same Religions. Catholics have one set of morals. Protestants have another. Sunni have one set of morals. Shia another. If these morals are all different & opposing, how can all be considered Immoral? If a coin lands Head up & you say that is wrong, can you also say it is wrong if it lands Tails up? For or against one or the other. You can't have it both ways, and before you can claim what is right or what is wrong you must first specify what it is that you consider to be right or wrong.
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'Church' can apply to the physical place of worship (Church, Mosque, Gurdwara, Kindom Hall, Synagogue, Chapel, Temple, etc.), the concept of an individual Religion (the spiritual belief of the tenets of that Religion) or the Administration of the Religion (those that lay down the rules & interpret the tenets of that Religion).
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

FourPart;1492558 wrote: 'Church' can apply to the physical place of worship (Church, Mosque, Gurdwara, Kindom Hall, Synagogue, Chapel, Temple, etc.), the concept of an individual Religion (the spiritual belief of the tenets of that Religion) or the Administration of the Religion (those that lay down the rules & interpret the tenets of that Religion).


In this instance Church refers to the complete hierarchy and organisation of the institution - as in the Catholic Church has it's spiritual home in the Vatican and looks to the pope as God's representative on Earth.

Christianity is the religion, the Catholic Church exists within that religion.

The distinction is important in that each Church interprets the religion in a different was and the hierarchy of the Church may not adhere to the tenets of the religion - in the days when the Borgias were popes I would go so far as to say that the Church was not Christian at all.
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FourPart;1492550 wrote: And yet again you refuse to answer a simple question. You continue to spout that Christianity & Islam are both immoral, yet you will not say just what is moral & what is immoral.


I gave you two examples in those links.

Seems that you cannot tell moral issues from non-moral ones.

I see that you finally got a bit specific below so let me walk you through some.



Do you find drinking moral?


Certainly. It is a healthy thing to do and doctors recommend it.

Do you find sex outside of marriage moral?


What is immoral with sex outside of marriage would be if it was kept secret from the other party. Marriage is basically a contract and it is immoral to break a contract without the permission of the other signatory.



Do you find homosexuality moral?


Any form of sexuality between consenting adults is their business and not mine or the state's or their religion's.

Do you find the eating of pork moral?


Any form of food a person chooses to eat is their business and not mine or the state's or their religion's.

Do you find capital punishment moral?


No. It is hard for a country to teach the veneration of life to it's citizens while it kills some of them.

Do you find any form of punishment moral?


Certainly. We have a right to protect ourselves from those who would harm society.

Do you find the genocide of an immoral culture as moral?


See above on capital punishment.

The list of possible examples is endless & you have not been able to come up with one, let alone any justification for your belief as to why. Without doing so your argument is as valid as "Because I said so - Nerr!!"


I agree that the list could be endless and you, as far as I can recall, did not ask for one.



Regards

DL
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

gmc;1492553 wrote: Religion is neither moral nor immoral because it's a human construct used by those who wish to have power and control.


Religions are human construct based on what?

Let me help you here.

Religions that profess a supernatural creator type of God, --- that has somehow communicated with us, --- are human construct based on lies.

That makes those religions immoral. Right?

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DL
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

FourPart;1492556 wrote: My point exactly. In theory Religion is Spiritual, guided by a set of morals laid down in whatever the scriptures of that Religion may be. Followers of that Religion will see those rules to be moral. Different Religions have different moral values. There is no right or wrong.

.


Sure there is.

What you are saying is that the majority rules and decides what is moral and that they could be wrong.

Hitler had his majority, and from within, things looked moral, but from without, we all know that genocide without a just cause is not moral.

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DL
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Post by FourPart »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1492563 wrote: I agree that the list could be endless and you, as far as I can recall, did not ask for one.



Regards

DL
You should read back through my previous posts. I was asking you repeatedly to list what you regarded as being 'Moral'. All I have done is to list a few possible suggestions.

Do you find drinking moral?

Certainly. It is a healthy thing to do and doctors recommend it.


So you consider abstinence as being Immoral?

Do you find sex outside of marriage moral?

What is immoral with sex outside of marriage would be if it was kept secret from the other party. Marriage is basically a contract and it is immoral to break a contract without the permission of the other signatory.


You seem to misunderstand the question. I was not refering to a 3rd party (ie as in a man / woman having an affair), but with a couple simply having sex for the sake of having sex. Single parenthood, etc.

As for being Immoral to break a contract without the permission of the other party. Does that mean it is Immoral to cancel a Direct Debit? That is a contract between 2 parties, yet it only takes 1 to cancel that contract, and neither party requires the permission of the other to do so.

Do you find homosexuality moral?

Any form of sexuality between consenting adults is their business and not mine or the state's or their religion's.
Yet there is no shortage of people who would disagree with you on such count. They see homosexuality as being Immoral, and not necessarily because of any connection to any Church. Because they consider something as being Immoral, does that make them Immoral for not agreeing with what you see as being Moral?

Do you find the eating of pork moral?

Any form of food a person chooses to eat is their business and not mine or the state's or their religion's.
Yet for centuries, people followed the moral law that such a thing was forbidden & Immoral. Then there were those who decided to break away & decide on their own Morals. Does that mean that those who break from the path of Moral Righteousness Immoral?

Do you find capital punishment moral?

No. It is hard for a country to teach the veneration of life to it's citizens while it kills some of them.
There is no shortage of countries who maintain the system of Capital Punishment in all different forms. Are they Immoral for using this as a deterrent to dispose of those who would break their Capital Laws? There are still those that believe we should reintroduce hanging for certain crimes. Are they Immoral for believing so?

Do you find any form of punishment moral?

Certainly. We have a right to protect ourselves from those who would harm society.
So what if a law is considered unjust? Someone goes to break that law. The law states that breach of that law requires the Death Penalty. The punishment, therefore, according to you, is Moral.

Do you find the genocide of an immoral culture as moral?

See above on capital punishment.


You have already contradicted yourself on Punishment / Capital Punishment & their standards of Morality.

Just because someone's view of Morality doesn't match up with yours doesn't automatically make them Immoral.

Morals, by their very nature, are not things that are set in stone. They are unique to the individual. It is the right of every individual to follow their own unique Moral Code. To try to deny them that right is Immoral.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

FourPart;1492571 wrote: You should read back through my previous posts. I was asking you repeatedly to list what you regarded as being 'Moral'. All I have done is to list a few possible suggestions.

So you consider abstinence as being Immoral?


No. Just not as healthy a lifestyle.



You seem to misunderstand the question. I was not refering to a 3rd party (ie as in a man / woman having an affair), but with a couple simply having sex for the sake of having sex. Single parenthood, etc.


My answer would be the same. Who are we to interfere with what two, or more, consenting adults want to do.

As for being Immoral to break a contract without the permission of the other party. Does that mean it is Immoral to cancel a Direct Debit? That is a contract between 2 parties, yet it only takes 1 to cancel that contract, and neither party requires the permission of the other to do so.


If the contract states that any one of the parties can break it alone then it would be moral as they are following the spirit of the contract.



Yet there is no shortage of people who would disagree with you on such count. They see homosexuality as being Immoral, and not necessarily because of any connection to any Church. Because they consider something as being Immoral, does that make them Immoral for not agreeing with what you see as being Moral?


Discrimination without a just cause, as with gays, is immoral to me.

If others disagree and can show cause to deny people a love connection of their own gender then I am always willing to listen. Bu I warn you that I have heard the arguments and found no just cause.



Yet for centuries, people followed the moral law that such a thing was forbidden & Immoral. Then there were those who decided to break away & decide on their own Morals. Does that mean that those who break from the path of Moral Righteousness Immoral?



There is no shortage of countries who maintain the system of Capital Punishment in all different forms. Are they Immoral for using this as a deterrent to dispose of those who would break their Capital Laws? There are still those that believe we should reintroduce hanging for certain crimes. Are they Immoral for believing so?


Yes. For the reason I stated. Let me add that for perfect justice, a state would also have to punish whoever contributed to making that individual a killer. Unless insane, that person was somehow created by others to be a murderer.

So what if a law is considered unjust? Someone goes to break that law. The law states that breach of that law requires the Death Penalty. The punishment, therefore, according to you, is Moral.


No. Just because it is law does not mean it is a moral law.

You have already contradicted yourself on Punishment / Capital Punishment & their standards of Morality.


I do not see any contradiction.

Just because someone's view of Morality doesn't match up with yours doesn't automatically make them Immoral.


Correct. The argument would show that.

Morals, by their very nature, are not things that are set in stone. They are unique to the individual. It is the right of every individual to follow their own unique Moral Code. To try to deny them that right is Immoral.


I agree that morals are subjective and not set in stone. At least I have not found any objective morals, save one, that I have yet to refute. There is one irritating tenet that I admit to not having refuted yet. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

It is not the right of a murderer to follow his own moral code and murder without a just cause. To deny a murderer the right to murder is Moral.

I don't know about England but in Canada, if we walk by an individual who believes it moral to rape, for instance, and is doing so and we just ignore him, then our laws say that we are just as culpable as the rapist for doing nothing.

Regards

DL
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Post by FourPart »

When chastising a child is a smack justified. In the UK it is now illegal to do so - a law I disagree with. However, as an abused child I also see the logic. At what point does a smack become abuse? If a child starts to run into the road, a smack teaches him not to do it again. It can be seen as being a moral action for the overall good of the child. However, there are those that would also argue that it is never right to hurt a child. Who is right? Who is wrong? Who's to say?
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

FourPart;1492587 wrote: When chastising a child is a smack justified. In the UK it is now illegal to do so - a law I disagree with. However, as an abused child I also see the logic. At what point does a smack become abuse? If a child starts to run into the road, a smack teaches him not to do it again. It can be seen as being a moral action for the overall good of the child. However, there are those that would also argue that it is never right to hurt a child. Who is right? Who is wrong? Who's to say?


To my shame, as a young father I spanked my first son once.

Happily for both of us, I recognized quickly that that spanking was more to cover my own failings as a parent who cannot verbalize well enough than his failings as a son.

My only excuse other than that is that I grew up where even schools were allowed to give corporeal punishment.

You may be right that a smack will teach a child not to run into the street but so will words. If a parent mostly uses smacks though for most lessons, I would think that that is abuse.

I don't know if I agree with a law against parental corporeal punishment or not. I do know that those that are spanked of hit often, according to the stats I have seen, seem to turn out worse in terms of delinquency etc. than those who have not been hit.

Those stats might justify a law.

Regards

DL
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Post by gmc »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1492566 wrote: Religions are human construct based on what?

Let me help you here.

Religions that profess a supernatural creator type of God, --- that has somehow communicated with us, --- are human construct based on lies.

That makes those religions immoral. Right?

Regards

DL


Please don't. It makes them human constructs used by those who wish to have power and control and based on useful myths and legends using a natural human concern of what comes next and fear of the unknown and strangers. Regicide was crime against god denying then church sent you to hell and unbelievers non humans who could be destroyed with impunity anyone that didn't fit in could become a convenient distraction from exploitation and injustice and used as a scapegoat. It' a political tool and no more immoral or moral than any other - like any tool it's the use that it's put to that defines it's morality or immorality.

posted by gnostic christian

At least I have not found any objective morals, save one, that I have yet to refute. There is one irritating tenet that I admit to not having refuted yet. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.




Hitler would agree with you so would isis. Both were and are hell bent (no pun intended) on creating a better state in which those who were niot helping could be safely disposed of for tne greater good. Come to that so would stalin pol pot -----.

On of the first things the emperor constantine did was to shut down all the schools of philosophy. Freethinkers terrify anyone claiming authority whatever the source of that authority.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

gmc;1492636 wrote: Please don't. It makes them human constructs used by those who wish to have power and control and based on useful myths and legends using a natural human concern of what comes next and fear of the unknown and strangers. Regicide was crime against god denying then church sent you to hell and unbelievers non humans who could be destroyed with impunity anyone that didn't fit in could become a convenient distraction from exploitation and injustice and used as a scapegoat. It' a political tool and no more immoral or moral than any other - like any tool it's the use that it's put to that defines it's morality or immorality.

posted by gnostic christian



Hitler would agree with you so would isis. Both were and are hell bent (no pun intended) on creating a better state in which those who were niot helping could be safely disposed of for tne greater good. Come to that so would stalin pol pot -----.

On of the first things the emperor constantine did was to shut down all the schools of philosophy. Freethinkers terrify anyone claiming authority whatever the source of that authority.


You are showing where the needs of the few are placed above the needs of the many and I agree that it is immoral.



"based on useful myths"

This confirms that religions are based on lies when the priests and imams say that those myths are literally true.

You are correct in that the lies are given to gain power and control over people. Please do not endorse such heinous actions and fight against religions when you can.

Regards

DL
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Post by gmc »

You are showing where the needs of the few are placed above the needs of the many and I agree that it is immoral.




Make up your mind will you. what you said was.

I agree that morals are subjective and not set in stone. At least[QUOTE] I have not found any objective morals, save one, that I have yet to refute. There is one irritating tenet that I admit to not having refuted yet. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.


If you have changed your mind about that particular tenet and now consider that there are no objective morals it suggests to me that you never actually thought very much about it. That particular one has been used by rulers since time immemorial get out there and die for me. Jesus was a virgin sacrifice (to assume for a moment he did exist) right up there with pagan sacrifices to appease the gods - since it was a man rather than a woman does that mean god is not the mysoginist he seems to be in the old testament? ( just be careful who you say that to. )



"based on useful myths"

This confirms that religions are based on lies when the priests and imams say that those myths are literally true.

You are correct in that the lies are given to gain power and control over people. Please do not endorse such heinous actions and fight against religions when you can.

Regards


Confirms for whom? Where did you manage o gerner the impression that I in any way endorsed rteligion any any form.
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Post by Ted »

I agree with gmc it is the use of something that makes it immoral or moral. Thus as religion or part of a region can be moral or immoral. To brand them all immoral is to fail to understand religion.
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Post by Ted »

Many of the stories in the Bible are midrash. They were designed to present a truth but not literally. I never heard a talking snake yet. LOL
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

gmc;1492671 wrote: Make up your mind will you. what you said was.



If you have changed your mind about that particular tenet and now consider that there are no objective morals it suggests to me that you never actually thought very much about it. That particular one has been used by rulers since time immemorial get out there and die for me. Jesus was a virgin sacrifice (to assume for a moment he did exist) right up there with pagan sacrifices to appease the gods - since it was a man rather than a woman does that mean god is not the mysoginist he seems to be in the old testament? ( just be careful who you say that to. )



Confirms for whom? Where did you manage o gerner the impression that I in any way endorsed rteligion any any form.


If you do not then we move on.

I am prolific and busy and sometimes apply belief to those who do not hold them as I tend to deal with one post at a time. I am somewhat absent minded.

As to the moral tenet that we are discussing, I di not change my mind but indicated that you were not applying it correctly.

You were putting the needs of the few, Hitler and his goons, ahead of the needs of the many which were the Jews he was slaughtering as well as the rest of the world that he wanted to conquer.

Regards

DL
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1492672 wrote: I agree with gmc it is the use of something that makes it immoral or moral. Thus as religion or part of a region can be moral or immoral. To brand them all immoral is to fail to understand religion.


You can cherry pick some good out of the latrine if you look hard enough.

Religions have to be looked at in total for a determination of --- worthy or not.

Christianity and Islam both produce homophobic and misogynous people and a moral sense that is demonstrably corrupt.

Neither deserve our respect when you look at what they are being used for.

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DL
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Post by FourPart »

Until recently, 99% of the Western World were devout Christian, holding true to the word of the Bible. The Bible that formed the laws that supposedly form the basis of all modern law.

Now, if you disregard the Religious side of the origin of these morals, when those morals are held by such a vast majority of the population, then a small minority come along who break away from that morality, that minority is bound to be seen as being immoral. Gradually the minority increases until it is no longer a minority. At which point does moral become immoral, and vice versa? There is, in reality, no such thing as moral or immoral. It is purely a matter of human perception. The ultimate paradox. To consider that what I see is moral is right & that what the other see as moral is wrong is immoral, as it is the result of an intolerant mind. Therefore to take that view of intolerance would mean that I was being immoral.
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Post by gmc »

If you do not then we move on.

I am prolific and busy and sometimes apply belief to those who do not hold them as I tend to deal with one post at a time. I am somewhat absent minded.






You need to start readfing things properly and being absent minded is not actually something to be proud of.

As to the moral tenet that we are discussing, I di not change my mind but indicated that you were not applying it correctly.

You were putting the needs of the few, Hitler and his goons, ahead of the needs of the many which were the Jews he was slaughtering as well as the rest of the world that he wanted to conquer.




No I wasn't you just don't get it do you. I suspect you really just don't read things properly. The jews were the few that needed tio be destroyed for the greater good of humanity just bas the hurch used to destroy heretics for the greater good of himanity just as isis want tio destroy unbelievers for the greater good. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. It is not objective in any way whatsoever it is used time and time again by those who would oppress the few for the greater good what that greater good is is up fo debate every single time.

Currently we have politicians justifying austerity for the greater good and feathgering their own nests while managing to get us to forget who actally caused the present economic difficulties in the first place. It's always subjective there is no such thing as objective morality. I would agree with you that religion has a baleful influence on morality and society but since that is a man made construct it is in itself neither moral or immoral it's what people make of it and use it for. The real problems arise when siociety accepts that belief in god should not be challenged and the godly have some kind of special insight to tell right from wrong.

Christianity and Islam both produce homophobic and misogynous people and a moral sense that is demonstrably corrupt.

Neither deserve our respect when you look at what they are being used for.




I'd agree with you but I wouldn't phrase it quite like that - bit which came first chicken or the egg . You think their moral sense is corrupt they think yours is. Their morality comes from god and what do you say to someone who thinks their can ne no morality without god? Just calling them idiots doesn't really work. Most of them in my experience haven't actually thought things through or even actually read their holy books while being able to cite relevant passages to back up their prejudices.

prejudice

ˈprɛdʒʊdɪs/

noun

noun: prejudice; plural noun: prejudices

1.

preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience


They just KNOW and what they see backs up their prejudice.
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Post by Ted »

I think that to tar everyone with the same brush is simply ludicrous. As far as objectivity goes there is no such animal.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

FourPart;1492693 wrote: Until recently, 99% of the Western World were devout Christian, holding true to the word of the Bible. The Bible that formed the laws that supposedly form the basis of all modern law.

Now, if you disregard the Religious side of the origin of these morals, when those morals are held by such a vast majority of the population, then a small minority come along who break away from that morality, that minority is bound to be seen as being immoral. Gradually the minority increases until it is no longer a minority. At which point does moral become immoral, and vice versa? There is, in reality, no such thing as moral or immoral. It is purely a matter of human perception. The ultimate paradox. To consider that what I see is moral is right & that what the other see as moral is wrong is immoral, as it is the result of an intolerant mind. Therefore to take that view of intolerance would mean that I was being immoral.


Here is what I think of your estimate of 99%.

You confuse what people say they believe or are with what they actually believe or are.



Note that most are likely following culture, tradition and peer pressure in saying what they say they are and believe.

To bolster this, I have it on good authority says Bishop Spong, that Finland claims a 95% Christian population when in reality, only about 4% of Fins ever step into a church.

I like to think that both Spong and Hawkins are correct because I cannot see the vast majority of the population as being gullible or stupid enough to believe in the supernatural without any evidence or proof other than the words of lying priests and imams.

Morality is subjective and while having some generally accepted tenets, will be different at various points in time and locations.

It is impossible to make morals objective and written in stone.

I have refuted all but one attempt to convince me of some objective morality.

I think a wise man will go with the wind and not resist it only to break.

As to Christian morals and laws and your view that most of our laws come from the plagiarized bible, let me burn you and remind you that the secular left Western nations progressed in our morality in spite of Christians holding us back.



Regards

DL
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

gmc;1492705 wrote: You need to start readfing things properly and being absent minded is not actually something to be proud of.



No I wasn't you just don't get it do you. I suspect you really just don't read things properly. The jews were the few that needed tio be destroyed for the greater good of humanity just bas the hurch used to destroy heretics for the greater good of himanity just as isis want tio destroy unbelievers for the greater good. It is not objective in any way whatsoever it is used time and time again by those who would oppress the few for the greater good what that greater good is is up fo debate every single time.

Currently we have politicians justifying austerity for the greater good and feathgering their own nests while managing to get us to forget who actally caused the present economic difficulties in the first place. It's always subjective there is no such thing as objective morality. I would agree with you that religion has a baleful influence on morality and society but since that is a man made construct it is in itself neither moral or immoral it's what people make of it and use it for. The real problems arise when siociety accepts that belief in god should not be challenged and the godly have some kind of special insight to tell right from wrong.



I'd agree with you but I wouldn't phrase it quite like that - bit which came first chicken or the egg . You think their moral sense is corrupt they think yours is. Their morality comes from god and what do you say to someone who thinks their can ne no morality without god? Just calling them idiots doesn't really work. Most of them in my experience haven't actually thought things through or even actually read their holy books while being able to cite relevant passages to back up their prejudices.



They just KNOW and what they see backs up their prejudice.


When a believer tells me that morals come from God I just pick a few of his more immoral tenets for debate and if the other engages, I make my point. I have yet to be shown wrong. That does not mean I never am. I just means that they cannot make their case. They usually tuck tail and run from there.

I also get some of my links that show that less religious countries usually do better in most moral and legal senses than so called religious countries.

Christians and Muslims do not argue well and I sometimes feel I am being cruel to children. I get over that quickly when I think of the harm their beliefs are causing in the world.

I tend not to blame politicians for what the world looks like. I blame their and our oligarch owners for our situation and most of all, all of us who do not have the balls to revolt against our owners and bring them to heel.

People get what they earn and all we are earning is slavery for ourselves.

Regards

DL
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Ted;1492722 wrote: I think that to tar everyone with the same brush is simply ludicrous. As far as objectivity goes there is no such animal.


If the religious do not want to be tarred with the immorality brush then they need to move out of their immoral religions.

Only immoral people will give respect to religions that do not deserve them.

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DL
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Post by FourPart »

Once again the old definition of a Christian seems to be someone who goes to Church. Utter twaddle. If everyone who not only claimed to be a Christian, but really was a Christian went to Church, there wouldn't be enough room in the Churches to house them. Furthermore, there are also many who go to Church who do not believe. They merely go for the socialising, the social status or to make others believe that they are believers. As with any religion, Christianity is a state of mind. A true 'Christian' who follows the philosophy supposedly taught by Jesus only needs to live the life of those principles. He doesn't need to go to Church once a week to prove it to everyone.

As a philosophy I see nothing wrong with the Christian teachings. Peace & Goodwill. Respect all men. Love thy neighbour etc. What is so immoral in that? Just what is Jesus supposed to have said that you see as being so immoral?

Personally I have no reason to believe that Jesus ever really existed, but I agree with the overall philosophy - just not in any form of deistic sense. In that sense I find the 'Christian' teachings to be totally moral. Just what is it that you see as being so immoral about it?
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Post by gmc »

For the purpose of polling a christian is anyone who tick the box when it comes to actually getting in to heaven the vast majority won't be going there. how big a majority depends on which particular sect you beling to.

We are the pure and chosen few

And all the rest are damned

There’s room enough in hell for you

We don’t want heaven crammed.
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Post by FourPart »

For the purpose of polling, many still consider "Christian" as meaning "White British".
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Post by LarsMac »

FourPart;1492756 wrote: For the purpose of polling, many still consider "Christian" as meaning "White British".


Maybe where you live. But a trip to Africa could change that definition in a hurry. Or even South America.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

FourPart;1492756 wrote: For the purpose of polling, many still consider "Christian" as meaning "White British".


I would suggest that the majority of churchgoers, even in this country, would not meet that definition.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

FourPart;1492735 wrote: Once again the old definition of a Christian seems to be someone who goes to Church. Utter twaddle. If everyone who not only claimed to be a Christian, but really was a Christian went to Church, there wouldn't be enough room in the Churches to house them. Furthermore, there are also many who go to Church who do not believe. They merely go for the socialising, the social status or to make others believe that they are believers. As with any religion, Christianity is a state of mind. A true 'Christian' who follows the philosophy supposedly taught by Jesus only needs to live the life of those principles. He doesn't need to go to Church once a week to prove it to everyone.

As a philosophy I see nothing wrong with the Christian teachings. Peace & Goodwill. Respect all men. Love thy neighbour etc. What is so immoral in that? Just what is Jesus supposed to have said that you see as being so immoral?

Personally I have no reason to believe that Jesus ever really existed, but I agree with the overall philosophy - just not in any form of deistic sense. In that sense I find the 'Christian' teachings to be totally moral. Just what is it that you see as being so immoral about it?


There are many things that should be judge as less than moral in what was put into the archetypal Jesus' mouth.

Here are a few with explanations.



One particular part of Jesus' teachings that is immoral and also anti-love is his policies on divorce. Jesus follow Yahweh with a no divorce allowed for anything policy.

That says that spouses have to continue living in loveless and even abusive situations.

You might also consider the immorality of Christianity's main forgiveness and redemption views.



What should set Christians apart, I agree, has little to do with showing up in church.

The gage according to Jesus, is their works and deeds.

If you analyse the lives that Christians and Muslims live, you can see quite easily that none of them are walking the talk of their religions.

People know and see this and that is why so many do not bother with religions except for keeping the old designation. Mostly I think just so they can be buried in old family plots.

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DL
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Bryn Mawr;1492771 wrote: I would suggest that the majority of churchgoers, even in this country, would not meet that definition.


Not even the Queen as she has not even demanded that the church she leads adopt equality rules. She is a second class in the religion she is head of. That is weird.

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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1492781 wrote: Not even the Queen as she has not even demanded that the church she leads adopt equality rules. She is a second class in the religion she is head of. That is weird.

Regards

DL


Firstly ,the Queen might be the titular head of the Church but she does not lead it.

Secondly, what has a single individual to do with the concept of "the majority"?
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Bryn Mawr;1492782 wrote: Firstly ,the Queen might be the titular head of the Church but she does not lead it.

Secondly, what has a single individual to do with the concept of "the majority"?


Are you saying that the Queen's demand for equality, if she did her duty to England and demanded it for her church, would be a minority view?

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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1492804 wrote: Are you saying that the Queen's demand for equality, if she did her duty to England and demanded it for her church, would be a minority view?

Regards

DL


NO. From which part of any of my replies do you deduce that?
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

Bryn Mawr;1492808 wrote: NO. From which part of any of my replies do you deduce that?


"Secondly, what has a single individual to do with the concept of "the majority"?"

The individual would obviously be the opposite and the only individual we were discussing was the Queen. Thus my reply to asking if you thought the Queen to hold the minority view.

Nothing a rocket scientist needs to be consulted with to understand.

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DL
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Post by gmc »

hey gnostic Maybe you should lay off the red bull before you post
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Gnostic Christian Bishop;1492815 wrote: "Secondly, what has a single individual to do with the concept of "the majority"?"

The individual would obviously be the opposite and the only individual we were discussing was the Queen. Thus my reply to asking if you thought the Queen to hold the minority view.

Nothing a rocket scientist needs to be consulted with to understand.

Regards

DL


It's a quite simple statement, you cannot argue the general from the specific.

In any logical argument a statement such as "the majority of" cannot be countered by "in the case of this individual" because the two hold no common relationship.

Nothing a rocket scientist needs to be consulted with to understand.
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Post by Gnostic Christian Bishop »

gmc;1492821 wrote: hey gnostic Maybe you should lay off the red bull before you post




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DL
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Post by Fuzzy »

I lay off any bull, no matter what the color.:wah:
Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.

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