The fear of this site being religious

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Mickiel
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by Mickiel »

I could not help but notice how some here at this site, seem to hold a fear of it being thought of as a religious site. I already know and understand that it is not a religious site, it just has a few threads that gain a popularity every now and then, that are religious topics. But I am taken back by the reaction to that by some here ; they react by showing an attitude that suggest the popular religious threads should be removed or something. Or that its something wrong with a religious thread , or a spiritual thread , or a biblical thread , to have a presence on the board everyday.

As if it is an affront.

I find this an interesting dynamic , a study in human nature really. And I know it is also mostly Atheist generated. Not that Atheist are insecure here , but I cannot help but observe the happenings and examine them; I have been here for years. Me myself, I usually do maybe one thread a year , rarely two, and some react as if that is too much. An unusual standard that is tight and reveals something to me ; if one thread a year is threatening, or bothersome ; my goodness , the power of religion must be incredible! And I personally think it is , although I am not religious. But I am forced to post my views in the religious section, because of stereo typing. And I understand that.

If the order were reversed, and this place was majority religious , I wonder what the religious would think about Atheist threads? Because this place is not majority religious, not in my view.

I often consider what are my insecurities? Do I allow all opinions from others without fear or prejudice? I don't really know, I only hope that I do. But I think fear of opinions or beliefs can be very up rooting and destructive in its final results. I know what I am, and the perception of me from others does not up root me or rattle me.

This site knows what it is, and will not be up rooted or rattled by religious opinion.
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Bryn Mawr
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by Bryn Mawr »

Mickiel;1494480 wrote: I could not help but notice how some here at this site, seem to hold a fear of it being thought of as a religious site. I already know and understand that it is not a religious site, it just has a few threads that gain a popularity every now and then, that are religious topics. But I am taken back by the reaction to that by some here ; they react by showing an attitude that suggest the popular religious threads should be removed or something. Or that its something wrong with a religious thread , or a spiritual thread , or a biblical thread , to have a presence on the board everyday.

As if it is an affront.

I find this an interesting dynamic , a study in human nature really. And I know it is also mostly Atheist generated. Not that Atheist are insecure here , but I cannot help but observe the happenings and examine them; I have been here for years. Me myself, I usually do maybe one thread a year , rarely two, and some react as if that is too much. An unusual standard that is tight and reveals something to me ; if one thread a year is threatening, or bothersome ; my goodness , the power of religion must be incredible! And I personally think it is , although I am not religious. But I am forced to post my views in the religious section, because of stereo typing. And I understand that.

If the order were reversed, and this place was majority religious , I wonder what the religious would think about Atheist threads? Because this place is not majority religious, not in my view.

I often consider what are my insecurities? Do I allow all opinions from others without fear or prejudice? I don't really know, I only hope that I do. But I think fear of opinions or beliefs can be very up rooting and destructive in its final results. I know what I am, and the perception of me from others does not up root me or rattle me.

This site knows what it is, and will not be up rooted or rattled by religious opinion.


I'm not sure fear is the right word. I think that the Garden went through a phase recently where almost all of the threads on the front page were not just based on religion but were aggressive and argumentative and the attitude appeared to be more that many of those who are not religious were fed up with, and overwhelmed by, too much religious infighting.
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by spot »

Someone haul Gill before the bench to account for herself.
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Mickiel
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by Mickiel »

Bryn Mawr;1494489 wrote: I'm not sure fear is the right word. I think that the Garden went through a phase recently where almost all of the threads on the front page were not just based on religion but were aggressive and argumentative and the attitude appeared to be more that many of those who are not religious were fed up with, and overwhelmed by, too much religious infighting.


Well I disagree with being overly aggressive and argumentive on board, but I do not disagree with the right to post our views. If almost all the threads on a particular day or days were about Atheism, would you consider that to be something people will get fed up with? Would you suggest there is no infighting in Atheism? If almost all the threads were about rabbits , would that give the site a bad reputation? You think that would turn people off?

Maybe we could invite an hypnotist to cast a spell on the site, that would not allow any particular subject to dominate at any time. Would that then be fair?

Or we could install a toilet on site, that automatically flushes any religious topic down the drain.
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by Bryn Mawr »

Mickiel;1494492 wrote: Well I disagree with being overly aggressive and argumentive on board, but I do not disagree with the right to post our views. If almost all the threads on a particular day or days were about Atheism, would you consider that to be something people will get fed up with? Would you suggest there is no infighting in Atheism? If almost all the threads were about rabbits , would that give the site a bad reputation? You think that would turn people off?

Maybe we could invite an hypnotist to cast a spell on the site, that would not allow any particular subject to dominate at any time. Would that then be fair?

Or we could install a toilet on site, that automatically flushes any religious topic down the drain.


We already have a toilet on site but it is very rarely used and never automatically for threads on any topic.

I did indeed uphold the right of the posters involved to air their views and pointed out that, although it had lasted for several weeks it would burn itself out.

It was not, I am sure, the fact that the threads were about religion but the fact that the OP launched them with the intent to cause as much argument as he could stir up - it verged on trolling but did not, quite, cross the line.
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by Mickiel »

Bryn Mawr;1494493 wrote: We already have a toilet on site but it is very rarely used and never automatically for threads on any topic.

I did indeed uphold the right of the posters involved to air their views and pointed out that, although it had lasted for several weeks it would burn itself out.

It was not, I am sure, the fact that the threads were about religion but the fact that the OP launched them with the intent to cause as much argument as he could stir up - it verged on trolling but did not, quite, cross the line.




Well I agree with you, if this person did that ; I think, for the most part, it would be obvious when a poster is baiting such things.

I still see an undercurrent of dismay toward religious topics from many , especially when those topics or threads garner a lot of views, or stand the test of time and last.

Has it ever occurred that religion is just a popular topic? If I said it was " Naturally popular", is that offensive? A site would have to be purely hard core Atheist for religion not to be one of its most popular sections. Or just a site that does not invite human issues, or does not focus on that.

I myself, disagree with religions as I view them in this world, but I KNOW religion is a power; an influence; a popular notion; and a misused one. I don't see how the discussion can be avoided, unless its a purely Atheist atmosphere. And even then it is still discussed.
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by Mickiel »

You know, for the most part, one could control the conversations going on in their homes ; and they should, to a degree; considering the degree of openness the owner has themselves. A website is different, its not a home. Far be it from me to list how a website should be run, and I don't have one. But I have seen, and seen for years, an undercurrent of infighting between Theist and Atheist on websites; on some a battle for control.

I think fear has a lot to do with it; fear on both sides. It causes unpleasant emotions; hey, one of the definitions of fear is unpleasant emotions.
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The fear of this site being religious

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spot;1494491 wrote: Someone haul Gill before the bench to account for herself.


Ere you, Dot (and carry one), don't you drag me into this ! :yh_shame I said my piece and the boss has already mentioned about the take-over of this site's front page with aggressive and argumentative threads involving religion.

As far as I am concerned each member is entitled to their opinions. Also, as far as I am concerned, if such threads do the same again in the future, then I shall not get involved, as I have already made my comments and observations. I know that I would feel the same if the site's front page was full of threads concerning football, or concerning art etc.. It does give any guest reader a certain impression about the site, wouldn't you agree ? It is much more interesting to a visiting guest reader if there was a cross section of different subjects to choose from.
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by Mickiel »

G#Gill;1494501 wrote: Ere you, Dot (and carry one), don't you drag me into this ! :yh_shame I said my piece and the boss has already mentioned about the take-over of this site's front page with aggressive and argumentative threads involving religion.

As far as I am concerned each member is entitled to their opinions. Also, as far as I am concerned, if such threads do the same again in the future, then I shall not get involved, as I have already made my comments and observations. I know that I would feel the same if the site's front page was full of threads concerning football, or concerning art etc.. It does give any guest reader a certain impression about the site, wouldn't you agree ? It is much more interesting to a visiting guest reader if there was a cross section of different subjects to choose from.


Maybe we can put a must read on top of the front page , that would educate readers who don't know the dynamics of how threads get posted , and explain that some days religious threads may dominate the page, but not to worry about it, that other days are different, then religious days won't scare them off or give them the impression that some people here like discussing religion. We would not want them to think that, now would we.

Or maybe we could install a program that would automatically limit the shelf life of religious threads to one hour front page shelf life, and then shuffle those awful threads into a twilight zone in the basement of the site. That would protect the perception of the site. Or better yet, a program that would automatically change the language of a religious thread that makes its way onto the front page; you know, change it to German or something. That ought to boost the reputation of the site.
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by Mickiel »

A thought comes to mind, about people who fear what others think about them. An interesting condition, sometimes the person tries to change, in order to please them. They try to be something they are not. Like an Atheist trying to be a Theist, its not going to work. We are what we are. And we are supposed to be what we are. We just have to be ourselves when we mix with other people. I need not fear being me! I said this to open the suggestion that a website is what it is. We need not try to change it to please others, or fear what others think about it. It is what it is.

Wisdom is " Knowing how it is."

I know how it is here at Forum Garden. I like it, always have. I think its one of the best sites on the internet. Very, very tolerant. Very diverse, religion is no threat to that. Anyone can see over zealous religious people at any site; and they are everywhere ; I have confronted hundreds of them. I don't fear them. I feel for them, but they cannot alter my personage in any manner. And they do not represent religion as a whole. But the reasonable Theist should be tolerated , in my view.

Religion should be a part of an open board , because its a large part of humanity-- simply no doubt about it. Its a piece of the pizza! A huge component of the human consciousness. Its most of the water in the lake , even though its drying out. Religion lives and breathes in humanity , you can't wake up and its not there. You can't close your eyes, snap your finger and its gone ; your fooling yourself. We need not fear it.

A lot of people here can see through religion; I see through it; Its transparent. I also see the fear of this site being perceived as being religious.

Religion may be one of the vital attractions here. Drawing interest from the masses. Why else would some religious threads grow, if not interest. Look at Pahu's thread , how it grows over the years. At times I myself have had monster religious threads on the internet at various sites. They just grow and grow and never seem to die; like they have a life of their own. They attract and draw interest , and I am given the opportunity to meet many people and relate with them. That is a joy ; not to be taken lightly. But not to be feared. Why try to hide a thread that the public is bonding with? There is no need to be ashamed of threads like that.

I wish I could tell you of the threads I have had like that over the years , in the old days. Those threads drew a lot of people to the sites ; they are good for sites, they do not ruin the reputation ; only foolishness does that. Religion is not a spoiler; the people who follow religion , they are the component that perverts.
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by Bryn Mawr »

G#Gill;1494501 wrote: Ere you, Dot (and carry one), don't you drag me into this ! :yh_shame I said my piece and the boss has already mentioned about the take-over of this site's front page with aggressive and argumentative threads involving religion.

As far as I am concerned each member is entitled to their opinions. Also, as far as I am concerned, if such threads do the same again in the future, then I shall not get involved, as I have already made my comments and observations. I know that I would feel the same if the site's front page was full of threads concerning football, or concerning art etc.. It does give any guest reader a certain impression about the site, wouldn't you agree ? It is much more interesting to a visiting guest reader if there was a cross section of different subjects to choose from.


I do recall a time when we had exactly the same problems with photo threads and Word Game threads with exactly the same complaints from the members - it is not just an aversion to religion.
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by gmc »

religion and politics two of he most interesting subjects to discuss. The problem with the religious threads is the occasional post just posting reams and reams of guff they think persuasive or links to you tube videos that would hold the attention span of a averagely intelligent person for about five seconds with no interest in discussion or interaction with anyone, and this on a discussion forum. You don't have to read them and I find most of the religious posters seem shocked that anyone disagrees with them don't actually know very much about their own religion or it's origins and quite frankly don;t want to think about it. They react by completely ignoring any post they can't deal with and prefer getting involved in interminable arguments with co-religionists about the minutiae of belief in something that's made up. I was once told by a former that I shouldn't be posting in religious threads because I was not a believer, the same individual also argued that religious beliefs should be respected and not argued with. I can respect someione right to believe to but not the belief itself especially when it's someone who is posting on a discussion forum.

It would make no more sense to ban religious threads than it would to ban atheists getting involved in the discussion. Sadly the rleigious have always handled dissent by trying io shut up manyone who opposes, now trhey re-write hisdtory to say no we didnlt really do all those nasty things and people fall for it.

posted by mickiel

I myself, disagree with religions as I view them in this world, but I KNOW religion is a power; an influence; a popular notion; and a misused one. I don't see how the discussion can be avoided, unless its a purely Atheist atmosphere. And even then it is still discussed.


Atheists almost by definition have questioned and discussed religion and generally speaking have mede extensive study of a subject they have found interesting enough to consider and evaluate, studies show that non believers are usually more knowlefgabkle about the various sects than the faithful. The religious just believe and don't question which is why a forum like this is a shock to the system.

Pahu's threads grow because he is just talking to himself as is macooo.

You're an american religion seems to be something that people in america cannot discuss dispassionately, disagreement is taken personally in the space of a few sentences. What's a hard core atheist by the way? Atheist/atheism is simply the belif that there is no god or gods there is no set of beliefs to be followed or anything like it it is not just another form of religion. The only thing atheist have in common is they don't belive ion deities. I don't believe god exists how much more hard core can you be?
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Post by Mickiel »

By hard core Atheist I mean the Atheist who acts like a hardheaded Theist would act; never listens, always thinks they are right; they constantly belittle others who do not think like them. The Theist and Atheist who are walled into their own world , and that world evolves around how they see it. Both are just opposite sides of the same coin. Both just as human as the other. Humanity is the coin.

Like children wondering who is going to get the candy , then they get it and won't share. Selfish in their view of life. Hardcore in their beliefs, ever learning and never able to come to the truth that the candy is for everyone. The truth is for everyone. Selfishness exist on both sides ; polar oppisites willing to live separate in their conscious existence. Like repelling magnets , looking at each other as they push away.

As big as a tree is , the only part of it that is alive is a thin layer beneath the bark and the leaves. All the wood inside is dead. So much like mankind; very few people have a mentality of life and love; much of this world's consciousness is dead in the area of unity with everyone; groupish and narrow minded. Fearful and competitive.

But the beat goes on.

Religion is a pillar on the building of mankind . It is here to stay.

You don't have to invite it into your home, but the building will not stand without it. But you can invite it into the website ; many visitors will look for it once they get here. Because its a favorite; no doubt about it.
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by FourPart »

The aggressive component is not in what is being said, but the way in which so many threads get started up, all saying essentially the same thing. We all know what a fanatically comic pratt Pahu is, but all credit to him, he keeps to his own little (?) thread, happily going round & round in circles, pasting exactly the same thing on FG as he does in countless other forums on the net. However, not once has he infracted views anywhere else on the rest of the forum. On the other hand, look at how many other Religious thread have been started, and in what way has one been any different from the other, apart from by the name of the thread?

By the way, in my own way, I am actually intending this as a compliment to Pahu. He may be a pratt, but he's an amenable pratt.
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Post by gmc »

By hard core Atheist I mean the Atheist who acts like a hardheaded Theist would act; never listens, always thinks they are right; they constantly belittle others who do not think like them. The Theist and Atheist who are walled into their own world , and that world evolves around how they see it. Both are just opposite sides of the same coin. Both just as human as the other. Humanity is the coin.


The religious won't leave people alone and insist in trying to interfere in everyday life in things like education, human rights and family planning and defend themselves with the pathetic argument that by stopping me telling you what to do you are attacking my right to relgious belief, don't ridicule my belief no matter how silly god is on my side so shut up.

You almost invariably end up taking umbrage because you think you should "win" what you're really saying is you can't hold your own in debate and are incapable of accepting that sometimes the best option is to have fun arguing but agree to disagree. We can all agree to live together but when it really comes right down to it between atheism an theism only one can be right. We live in secular societies if we did not this discussion forum with conflicting views about religion would not exist and that's no thanks to religion.
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Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1494559 wrote: The aggressive component is not in what is being said, but the way in which so many threads get started up, all saying essentially the same thing. We all know what a fanatically comic pratt Pahu is, but all credit to him, he keeps to his own little (?) thread, happily going round & round in circles, pasting exactly the same thing on FG as he does in countless other forums on the net. However, not once has he infracted views anywhere else on the rest of the forum. On the other hand, look at how many other Religious thread have been started, and in what way has one been any different from the other, apart from by the name of the thread?

By the way, in my own way, I am actually intending this as a compliment to Pahu. He may be a pratt, but he's an amenable pratt.


I have not read much of Pahu's thread , I just admire its longevity. And I disagree that all religious threads discuss the same thing, they are diverse, and may hit on similar points. I see nothing wrong with a poster being only on their own thread, I mostly do that, but on occasion I post on other threads, as they interest me.

I challenge you to prove that " So many religious threads are being on the board", in my view, they are among the fewest of threads , according to topics. This board is big , there are way more topics posted than religious ones. Perhaps the religious ones just often garner the most attention, and that may be envied by some. If such threads are magnetic and energetic , they are just going to stand out. That's good for a site, its not a negative thing. There should be no spirit of competition ; and because there might be, it erupts conflicting feelings in others who have a chip on their shoulder already.

If a thread is scoring points for the team, the site, you let it shoot; you don't stop your scorer from doing his or her thing.
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Post by Mickiel »

gmc;1494564 wrote: The religious won't leave people alone and insist in trying to interfere in everyday life in things like education, human rights and family planning and defend themselves with the pathetic argument that by stopping me telling you what to do you are attacking my right to relgious belief, don't ridicule my belief no matter how silly god is on my side so shut up.

You almost invariably end up taking umbrage because you think you should "win" what you're really saying is you can't hold your own in debate and are incapable of accepting that sometimes the best option is to have fun arguing but agree to disagree. We can all agree to live together but when it really comes right down to it between atheism an theism only one can be right. We live in secular societies if we did not this discussion forum with conflicting views about religion would not exist and that's no thanks to religion.




I think Jehovahs Witnesses are invading toward people , but I do not see many other religions being invasive. Religion in the media is not invasive, because you don't have to watch. Churches are not invasive, you don't have to go.

I disagree that between Atheism and Theism, only one can be right. Both have right points, both have truth, both have sense, both have humans, both have things that attract, both have a following. Both have features that give special prominence to humanity, both are sides of the same coin. I believe God wanted both ways to exist, because humanity needs both. What would up be without down? What would yen be without yang? What would lies be without truth? There is no such thing as a one sided coin, or a one sided humanity. Atheism needs Theism; Theism needs Atheism.

A-THEISM; a term that includes both Theism and Atheism! This is not an issue of right or wrong, its humanity! Its family. One brother thinks one way, the other is way differing, but they are brothers! One sister walks in one direction, the other goes another way, but they are still joined.

If you magnify separation , your trying to split a coin. Trying to uplift warfare in the family. The older I get, the more I see this. We are what we are, because we are supposed to be that way. If you are Atheist, your supposed to be one. A Theist is supposed to be a Theist, its that simple! Its not wrong for an Atheist to think like an Atheist, I believe God wanted a certain amount of Atheist to exist in every stage of Human history. He wanted a certain amount of males and females in every time frame. He wanted the friction that would cause. He knew it would be this way. When he planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he started all the things and dynamics we are seeing in humanity today! That began the knowledge production of humanity. All our knowledge is based on good and evil, and the vase mixture of the two.

In reality, both Atheism and Theism are wrong, in my view; neither is right. So its not a question of right or wrong, its the blind contending with the blind. We all are confused , nobody really knows what is behind the curtain. And I believe that.
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by Bryn Mawr »

Mickiel;1494567 wrote: I have not read much of Pahu's thread , I just admire its longevity. And I disagree that all religious threads discuss the same thing, they are diverse, and may hit on similar points. I see nothing wrong with a poster being only on their own thread, I mostly do that, but on occasion I post on other threads, as they interest me.

I challenge you to prove that " So many religious threads are being on the board", in my view, they are among the fewest of threads , according to topics. This board is big , there are way more topics posted than religious ones. Perhaps the religious ones just often garner the most attention, and that may be envied by some. If such threads are magnetic and energetic , they are just going to stand out. That's good for a site, its not a negative thing. There should be no spirit of competition ; and because there might be, it erupts conflicting feelings in others who have a chip on their shoulder already.

If a thread is scoring points for the team, the site, you let it shoot; you don't stop your scorer from doing his or her thing.


I believe that FourPart was referring back to the start of some members problems with religious threads - the mass of threads started by Gnostic Christian Bishop. Many, many threads with different titles but basically on the same subject and attempting to daemonise Islam.
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Post by Mickiel »

Bryn Mawr;1494571 wrote: I believe that FourPart was referring back to the start of some members problems with religious threads - the mass of threads started by Gnostic Christian Bishop. Many, many threads with different titles but basically on the same subject and attempting to daemonise Islam.




Well with Gnostic Christian Bishop its " Along came the Spider", and sat down in Forum Garden. This type is just going to spin its web, spin all kinds of sticky information. Theism has a lot of spiders , they cast their webs everywhere. Looking to catch attention. I used to do that at Forum Garden , then I gave my word that I would not do it again , because I realized the irritation it caused. Most Spiders simply do not realize the irritation they cause, or don't care.

I remember my mindset when I used to do it. It was like a drug, like getting high ; you do it and enjoy doing it. I got off on looking at them, the threads and the attention they got. Its a selfish satisfaction. Like saying, " This is how I think; this is how it is." It becomes an addiction. I woke up one day and saw myself drowning in myself. Like waking up in the middle of a lake of dung, and having to swim back to shore through all of it. The consciousness sees the mess it is in. So you learn and keep moving. Then you see another Spider doing the same thing , and you know its not much you can do about it. They have to get sick of their own dung , and I hope one day they will.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Mickiel;1494574 wrote: Well with Gnostic Christian Bishop its " Along came the Spider", and sat down in Forum Garden. This type is just going to spin its web, spin all kinds of sticky information. Theism has a lot of spiders , they cast their webs everywhere. Looking to catch attention. I used to do that at Forum Garden , then I gave my word that I would not do it again , because I realized the irritation it caused. Most Spiders simply do not realize the irritation they cause, or don't care.

I remember my mindset when I used to do it. It was like a drug, like getting high ; you do it and enjoy doing it. I got off on looking at them, the threads and the attention they got. Its a selfish satisfaction. Like saying, " This is how I think; this is how it is." It becomes an addiction. I woke up one day and saw myself drowning in myself. Like waking up in the middle of a lake of dung, and having to swim back to shore through all of it. The consciousness sees the mess it is in. So you learn and keep moving. Then you see another Spider doing the same thing , and you know its not much you can do about it. They have to get sick of their own dung , and I hope one day they will.


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Post by Mickiel »

Bryn Mawr;1494575 wrote: You and me both




Yes, it requires stronger insight for one to look into themselves and see their own faults. But when a spider is on a mission , they are narrow minded and focused on their own vituperation ; I know, I used to be one. I can understand a website getting aroused and tired of this, especially if more than one spider crawls onto the board and starts spinning. Life is just a tangled web , and we have to tolerate the pot holes that are just on the road of life. You can fix one and another pops up. Like a lump on a rug, you can iron things out, then up pops somethingelse.
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by Mickiel »

As religion rains its moral disapproval down on Forum garden, I think the sites members have dealt with it well , my concern is that these members don't push back with a predetermined prejudiced that assumes that visitors don't have the same insights that they do which recognize the trick bags of religion. Common sense does not need to be protected , we don't need to post guards here ; nor do we need to let intimidation fuel over protective concerns about the visiting public. Does Atheism need protection when it is attacked? No, Atheist can fend for themselves. The public can fend for themselves , the welcome dynamic is well in place at Forum Garden already. Newcomers are welcomed here by many members consistently. Religion is well established in the public where the visitors came from, they know how it is. This site is well established , reputation is not tarnished by toleration of sites, its enhanced.

You deal with disruption from the inside, not from what comes from the outside. That's one of the serious problems with religion, its imploding; too many Trojan horses have been planted inside religion, it gave far too much attention to its public, its image, and did not look inside at itself. From within, religion let too many things get into its bloodstream, now the body is infected. They historically were driven to increase the membership, and the Trojan horses of tradition, paganism, and false doctrines were bled into its system and it has never been the same since. They got their members at great cost. They got their mega churches at a terrible price to both them and the public. They got infected and they infected the public.

And Christian education has been swelling the cranium ever since. Its been a frontal assault on the frontal lobe. And rather than embracing intellect, they went after the emotions of the public. Contemporary theology became a blending of Christian thought and pagan philosophy. And although the intellect is not a gateway for knowing God deeply, neither are the emotions. While the spirit can embrace intellect, the human intellect and emotions do little to understand spirit. Knowledge is not the equivalent of moral character, and religion got caught up in data-transfer education.
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by flopstock »

I don't even start reading them anymore... except for that poor sap who gets ignored by everyone at their church and church activities when they show up.

That is interesting reading :)
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by Mickiel »

flopstock;1494606 wrote: I don't even start reading them anymore... except for that poor sap who gets ignored by everyone at their church and church activities when they show up.

That is interesting reading :)




Well there are many characters involved with religion , it produces many reactions in people that has limited appeal to the secular market. These unstable people have a serious devotion but they are not the litmus test that garners new members from the secular audience. We must assume that because they have so many members, there has to be a percentage drawn from the secular masses. Religion , as a whole, is not being ignored. Life is lived forwards but understood backwards ; we must consider the history of religion. First century religion began many changes in the churches.

The fact that religion has many disturbed roots, does not make everything in religion wrong in themselves, but it does not mean they are sacrosanct. Major changes in religious practices over the past half century have been largely window dressings. Religion got caught up in " Trends" and hollowed practices. That produced the " Poor Saps" and spawned generations of plastic people who let the clergy think for them. The church became an institution that had its meetings and gatherings turn into one " Big Mouth", speaking to a congregation that was reduced to being one " Big Ear." Heretics began coming from all directions , this practice was picked up by all cultures.

The era of Constantine gave birth to a lot of this.
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by Mickiel »

One of the reasons religion is feared , are their leaders and their influence. Such as the Pope , in example , reams of influence on the world, and that power passed down from Pope to Pope and on to subsequent generations. As I said, those generations , the membership of the church, became one big ear, listening to one big mouth. The members largely do not participate in the services, they just warm benches and listen. This is one of the reasons some of them come to websites such as this, they are given the opportunity to express themselves ; to say something; to participate. Then they go back to church and listen. This must be understood about them ; they have a freedom here that they don't have at their churches. They can say anything they wish, and some of them simply don't know how to handle that freedom, like a slave being granted one day of freedom to do anything he wants.

Some first century religions were perhaps religion at one of its more proper forms, before it was tainted and corrupted. Religion was an organic entity that gave everyone expression, far different from the institutional churches today. As far back as Rome, during the Roman Empire, foreign elements can be tracked seeping into religion and giving birth to traditions that still have roots today. Traditions that created things that are " Normal" in society today; such as wedding ceremonies, funerals, statues, wedding rings, Easter, Christmas, stained glass windows, Gothic Cathedrals, Buildings and steeples, the contemporary sermon, Clergy and Laity, the " Choir", the usher and the collection plate, " Sunday School"; the list goes on and on, its extensive.

When I say " Buildings" , Constantine built church buildings that were spacious and magnificent. They intimidated the structure of pagan temples. This began the dynamic of creating a membership primed for passive and docile crowds to watch a performance. To just sit there and do nothing but allow these leaders to put a funnel into their heads and pour knowledge into them. Then they live out their lives like programmed robots. Happy and content in what they have heard.

The sheer power of their leaders.
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by Mickiel »

You ever had someone in your family that was religious, and you were ashamed of that? Has religion got so bad, that a person could be so weary of it, that they think a religious person is a leper? Like they have aids or something?

Then you look at websites, how they can become like another home to people who constantly use them. You go there all the time and enjoy it; it becomes a daily part of your being. Even to the point that you become prejudiced toward anyone that you think is spoiling your "Second Home." They come in and your ready to put them out. Because they don't think like you; how dare them.

They have something on them that you don't want on you. Like a nasty perfume.

A sneaky kind of fear can be manufactured like that.
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by FourPart »

My Grandmother was a devout Christian. Not only did she attend Church every week, as well as getting involved in other Church activities, but she was a Bell Ringer at Christchurch Priory as well. She was a lady who faithfully lived the moral teachings of Christianity. However, she would never have imposed her beliefs on anyone else & would treat all those who did so with utter contempt. She considered her beliefs to be a personal thing, and not something to go waving about in everyone else's faces. She would lead by example, by helping those in need, regardless of race or creed, and without constantly preaching religious claptrap at them. I even remember asking her as a kid, "Why do you have to go to Church just to be a kind old lady?", to which she simply answered "No reason".
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1494641 wrote: My Grandmother was a devout Christian. Not only did she attend Church every week, as well as getting involved in other Church activities, but she was a Bell Ringer at Christchurch Priory as well. She was a lady who faithfully lived the moral teachings of Christianity. However, she would never have imposed her beliefs on anyone else & would treat all those who did so with utter contempt. She considered her beliefs to be a personal thing, and not something to go waving about in everyone else's faces. She would lead by example, by helping those in need, regardless of race or creed, and without constantly preaching religious claptrap at them. I even remember asking her as a kid, "Why do you have to go to Church just to be a kind old lady?", to which she simply answered "No reason".


My mother was the same way , she helped a whole lot of people. She started a neighborhood free clothing program, she also started a free food program 5 years ago, and both programs are still going strong today. When she died, the church named the programs after her. She also started a youth education summer school, which the city of Detroit gave her an award for.

I too once asked my Mom why she did so much, she said she wanted to please God. She said the people need those things. She also started a free thanksgiving dinner for 5 " Halfway houses", 13 years ago, and they still have it every thanksgiving. Halfway houses are programs that help shelter drug addicts and alcoholics and ex call girls, and homeless people. After they eat, they take them over to the clothing house and let them pick all the clothes they need.

My Mom was a great for real woman.
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Post by FourPart »

That is the thing I have the utmost respect for & support it all the way, whatever the motivation. However (although, admittedly, things have changed nowadays), when you get institutions such as the Salvation Army where sustenance would be provided for the needy, in return for listening to a load of preaching, that is a different matter, as that is a case of imposing their beliefs on others when they are at their most vulnerable.
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1494671 wrote: That is the thing I have the utmost respect for & support it all the way, whatever the motivation. However (although, admittedly, things have changed nowadays), when you get institutions such as the Salvation Army where sustenance would be provided for the needy, in return for listening to a load of preaching, that is a different matter, as that is a case of imposing their beliefs on others when they are at their most vulnerable.




Then the Salvation Army in Detroit must be from another planet, because everything they provide is freely given every day with no preaching what so ever! Perhaps you just have a load of prejudice toward religious organizations that is sitting in your brain and affecting how you view them. You won't see nothing good in them anyway. When that same mentality looks at a religious thread on this site, that same prejudice will be filtered into the thread, and you will cry foul.

The war between Theist and Atheist will never end because of that prejudice; it gives birth to a kind of fear that looks to manipulate the masses on both sides. A sad situation to observe ; a deadly dynamic that festers in the human nature.
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by Mickiel »

When you compete with someone, rarely do you compliment them on the good things that they do. Because you want to win ; you are pounding pressure on them to weaken and submit. There is an element here that is like that toward religion. They like to contend religion at every juncture. They orient themselves to dismantle it on every thread. Its not like the religious posters here are many; they are few, only three or four at most, but they react as if there are hundreds of religious threads. The religious posters here are seriously out numbered; and just the few are strangely feared.

I wonder what it would be like if there were 10 people here who constantly posted threads in the religious section. Good grief , it would shake this place up.
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Post by gmc »

posted by mickiel

I remember my mindset when I used to do it. It was like a drug, like getting high ; you do it and enjoy doing it. I got off on looking at them, the threads and the attention they got. Its a selfish satisfaction. Like saying, " This is how I think; this is how it is." It becomes an addiction. I woke up one day and saw myself drowning in myself. Like waking up in the middle of a lake of dung, and having to swim back to shore through all of it. The consciousness sees the mess it is in. So you learn and keep moving. Then you see another Spider doing the same thing , and you know its not much you can do about it. They have to get sick of their own dung , and I hope one day they will.


It's a form of mental masterbation, you're getting pleasure from it and the participatio of anyone else is not required another is not required and any attempt at communication is ignored by theo ne in full flow as it were. Pahu and gnostic bishop are probably the two happiest people o the forum.

Some first century religions were perhaps religion at one of its more proper forms, before it was tainted and corrupted. Religion was an organic entity that gave everyone expression, far different from the institutional churches today. As far back as Rome, during the Roman Empire, foreign elements can be tracked seeping into religion and giving birth to traditions that still have roots today. Traditions that created things that are " Normal" in society today; such as wedding ceremonies, funerals, statues, wedding rings, Easter, Christmas, stained glass windows, Gothic Cathedrals, Buildings and steeples, the contemporary sermon, Clergy and Laity, the " Choir", the usher and the collection plate, " Sunday School"; the list goes on and on, its extensive.




The romans used to incorporate elements of other religons in to their own - the roman gods are the greek ones with different names, not surprising since rome was originally colonised by greeks.

Religion is a cultural system of behaviors and practices, mythologies, world views, sacred texts, holy places, ethics, and societal organisation that relate humanity to what an anthropologist has called "an order of existence".




What on earth do you think is? The concept of right ir wrong religions is a creation of the christian church pagans would drop one god nd take up another if the one they worshipped seemed to be weak. The greeks seemed to believe you couldm pray tomthe gods but you couldn't depend on them being interested the fates play ed with man an we were in their hands. We've never quite lost our connection to those times we bstill talk about destiny and meeting your fate. When constantine decided cgristianity was a great way to consolidate his power - emperor and god's anointed the first thing he did was shut down all the schools of philosophy god forbid anyoine should talk about republics ir democracy or dare to question the rule of an emperor. Went a bit belly upo when the popes realised that so long as they were the ones doing the anointing of the emperor they actually held the power. The rituals of the roman catholic church are straight lifts from pagan ceremonies of the time. Transubstantiation must have been a poweful weapon on tghe minds of believers. Religion is all about fear on your knees before god and by the way his representatives on earth

A-THEISM; a term that includes both Theism and Atheism! This is not an issue of right or wrong, its humanity! Its family. One brother thinks one way, the other is way differing, but they are brothers! One sister walks in one direction, the other goes another way, but they are still joined.

:-5:-5

In reality, both Atheism and Theism are wrong, in my view; neither is right. So its not a question of right or wrong, its the blind contending with the blind. We all are confused , nobody really knows what is behind the curtain. And I believe that.




well good for you. Atheism means without god that means an atheist generally does not believe there is evidence to justify belief in the existence of god. There either is a god or their isn't only on can be right and I dare say we might find out someday but it's up to you to decide if it matters. Make up your mind and just be glad you live in a secular society where fear of god is voluntary. It is not an alternative to relgion it is a rejection of the whole nonsense. It seems to me you are coming to the end of the yellow brick road and are dioscovering what is behiond the curtain.

Religion is man made you can read up on bible history and trace back when all the decisions were made as to what would be in the bible and what would be heresy. You might want to believ they were all guided by god but that's up to you. you can do the same with the koran if you want. The religous tir themselves uop in knots trying to make sense of it.
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by Mickiel »

gmc;1494703 wrote: posted by mickiel



It's a form of mental masterbation, you're getting pleasure from it and the participatio of anyone else is not required another is not required and any attempt at communication is ignored by theo ne in full flow as it were. Pahu and gnostic bishop are probably the two happiest people o the forum.




That is a funky way of describing it.

Beliefs can become habitual and addictive ; those who have been there and escaped from it know how it is. I'll go into that a bit more later.
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The fear of this site being religious

Post by flopstock »

Good rule of thumb is to never have as many(or more) posts in a thread as everyone else in it combined.
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.

Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6

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Post by FourPart »

Mickiel;1494683 wrote: Then the Salvation Army in Detroit must be from another planet, because everything they provide is freely given every day with no preaching what so ever! Perhaps you just have a load of prejudice toward religious organizations that is sitting in your brain and affecting how you view them. You won't see nothing good in them anyway. When that same mentality looks at a religious thread on this site, that same prejudice will be filtered into the thread, and you will cry foul.



The war between Theist and Atheist will never end because of that prejudice; it gives birth to a kind of fear that looks to manipulate the masses on both sides. A sad situation to observe ; a deadly dynamic that festers in the human nature.


If you had bothered to read my post fully, you might have noticed that I said that things had changed from how things used to be. I have absolutely nothing against people following their own Religious beliefs, so long as they don't go thrusting it in everyone else's faces. A friend of mine organises a local Street Pastors group. They go out on the street, just to be there for anyone who needs someone to talk to, but one of their guiding rules is not to promote the Faith.
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Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1494780 wrote: If you had bothered to read my post fully, you might have noticed that I said that things had changed from how things used to be. I have absolutely nothing against people following their own Religious beliefs, so long as they don't go thrusting it in everyone else's faces. A friend of mine organises a local Street Pastors group. They go out on the street, just to be there for anyone who needs someone to talk to, but one of their guiding rules is not to promote the Faith.


I myself see nothing wrong when a church promotes their faith, or promotes their special programs and community events; promotion is not against the law. Neither is advertising. Churches have a legal right to do so. I think you really mean when they pester people with their evangelizing. Even that is legal. Even advertising on the media is legal. Just because a particular church does not promote themselves , does not make them right, and churches who do wrong.

Not in my view.

And just because you think its something when a church does not promote themselves ; I think nothing of it. If they want more members, they should promote themselves; and if they think their message is of value, they ought to promote it.

Why try and handicap themselves? Or why are you trying to handicap them?
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Post by Mickiel »

flopstock;1494728 wrote: Good rule of thumb is to never have as many(or more) posts in a thread as everyone else in it combined.




And if you do , what of it? If you have more to say than everyone else , what of it?
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Post by gmc »

Mickiel;1494791 wrote: And if you do , what of it? If you have more to say than everyone else , what of it?


You're ignoring or failing to read what people are posting, if you did you might find the discussion more interesting and progress from your current self obsessed activity. Having more to say is all very well unless you just want to talk to yourself most of the time in which case people will stop bothering to read your posts.
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Post by Mickiel »

gmc;1494794 wrote: You're ignoring or failing to read what people are posting, if you did you might find the discussion more interesting and progress from your current self obsessed activity. Having more to say is all very well unless you just want to talk to yourself most of the time in which case people will stop bothering to read your posts.




And what, pray tell, is your observation when people don't stop reading the threads, as is most of the case with popular religious post? I am reading everything said to me and find most of it shallow common criticism from the average Atheist. Nothing but the familiar lashing out; things with no depth , just energetic old school back yard booming.

Nothing interesting to me as yet. Now explain to me why people are reading this and not bothering to ignore it as you suggest?
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Mickiel;1494799 wrote: And what, pray tell, is your observation when people don't stop reading the threads, as is most of the case with popular religious post? I am reading everything said to me and find

Nothing interesting to me as yet. Now explain to me why people are reading this and not bothering to ignore it as you suggest?


In the vain hope you might actually start discussing things. If you find the arguments spurious then say so and why you do. How about the basics. Do you believe god exists yes or no and why do you believe what you believe. If you you don't believegod exists then you are an atheist, if you don't know god exists becauser you have no knowldge opf of him that's fine that makes you an agnostic atheist.

There is no point discussing religion with you since there is no basis for the belief. Religion is interesting religious pepople are dangerous to the well being of society. In my experience religious peoplpe run a mile when they meet someone who disagrees with them and challenges theo cherished assumptions, maybe it's the realisation and fear that they have pot their faith in a man made set of fairy tales that freaks them out.
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Post by Mickiel »

gmc;1494824 wrote: In the vain hope you might actually start discussing things. If you find the arguments spurious then say so and why you do. .




In my view, what's vain is when you can discuss things for four pages with various people, then someone with a brain comes along and implies that you have not discussed things; then people wonder why I imply that some people carry themselves as if they have no brains.
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Post by FourPart »

`Mickiel;1494829 wrote: In my view, what's vain is when you can discuss things for four pages with various people, then someone with a brain comes along and implies that you have not discussed things; then people wonder why I imply that some people carry themselves as if they have no brains.
At least you have agreed that GMC has a brain. Yet you still conveniently ignored the rest of his post which offered you the way to argue your case in a reasonable manner.

As to why people respond to them - the simple answer is that it irritates the hell out of everyone when they are constantly posted as in your face preaching. Furthermore, it's not even a case of going to look in the Religious sections, as I, for one, (and probably everyone else) just follow the New Posts, rather than trawling through all the other sub forums, only to find practically every one there to do with Religion.
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Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1494841 wrote: `

At least you have agreed that GMC has a brain. Yet you still conveniently ignored the rest of his post which offered you the way to argue your case in a reasonable manner.

.


Oh please, he asked me if I believe in God or not ; anybody who bothers to read my threads ought to know I believe in God, its painfully obvious! Why should I bother answering useless questions that are so obvious? No, its obvious he asked the question for useless reasons; his question is not worth debate. Why should I rehash answers I have committed a thousand page thread on? The thread " Is God Real", covers that pretty well. This thread is not about God being real, its about the fear of this site being perceived as religious, and I want to stick to that subject.

If he wants to discuss belief in God, then let him take his questions to the appropriate thread.
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Post by Mickiel »

[QUOTE=FourPart;1494841]`

.

As to why people respond to them - the simple answer is that it irritates the hell out of everyone when they are constantly posted as in your face preaching QUOTE]





Does it irritate Theist when they constantly must see the Atheist view being plastered on the site? Oh are you suggesting that Atheist " Don't preach their views?"

Oh so now Atheist are the silent minority? Passive and unrelenting?

Man, get real.
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How many Religious threads have been started by Atheists (not counting Gnostic, of course).
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Post by gmc »

[psted by mickiel

Oh please, he asked me if I believe in God or not ; anybody who bothers to read my threads ought to know I believe in God, its painfully obvious! Why should I bother answering useless questions that are so obvious? No, its obvious he asked the question for useless reasons; his question is not worth debate


Now tell how how is anyone supposed to work that one ouit from this.

I disagree that between Atheism and Theism, only one can be right. Both have right points, both have truth, both have sense, both have humans, both have things that attract, both have a following. Both have features that give special prominence to humanity, both are sides of the same coin. I believe God wanted both ways to exist, because humanity needs both. What would up be without down? What would yen be without yang? What would lies be without truth? There is no such thing as a one sided coin, or a one sided humanity. Atheism needs Theism; Theism needs Atheism.


you come across as a theist working out that maybe there is no god after all andare in fact on your way to being an agnostic of one kind or another. Now let's go to the next step. Why do you believe in god? Enlighten us all with your wisdom. That's assuming you actually do have a reason for believing. Blind faith is not really proof nom matter how cinconved you are.

posted by four part

How many Religious threads have been started by Atheists (not counting Gnostic, of course).




I confess I've started a few usually because I am annoyed at something the unco guid arev up to.
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Post by Mickiel »

gmc;1494861 wrote: [psted by mickiel



Now tell how how is anyone supposed to work that one ouit from this.



you come across as a theist working out that maybe there is no god after all andare in fact on your way to being an agnostic of one kind or another. Now let's go to the next step. Why do you believe in god? Enlighten us all with your wisdom. That's assuming you actually do have a reason for believing. Blind faith is not really proof nom matter how cinconved you are.

QUOTE:

I believe in God from process of elimination; I have examined all other possibilities and find the God factor as the best available possibility in my perspective and reasoning. It appeals far more to my conscious intellect, than all the others.

In my view the sheer " Excitement of Life", came to be from a more exciting existing life force , not the dull explanation of science , we are not continuous with the idiotic bloodline of speechless apes! We did not crawl out from under magic appearing self generating rocks! And we are not " Space People", born out of silly black holes in space. My personality did not evolve from pitch black nothing, that insults my intelligence.

I believe in God because I am Supposed too. Its normal for me; its my destiny; its the cards dealt to me; its what my consciousness was primed for; its the road placed in front of me. I believe in God because I agree with it. It fits my being like a glove. I believe in God because it was placed in me from the inside, not by outside influences. Although outside influences were there. I believe in God because all the other ways are primal discust to me ; deceitful things which blind people. I believe in God because I like it.

I believe in God because I see its color. I smell its scent. I believe in God because he has backed me into a corner , and shut me off from other ways. I believe in God because he has forced it on me. There can be no other way for me. I am hedged in. And I know there is absolutely nothing I can do about it. Who can straighten what God has bent?













quote;

I confess I've started a few usually because I am annoyed at something the unco guid arev up to.


Let Four part know
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Post by FourPart »

Mickiel;1494862 wrote: Let Four part know


What kind of answer is that?
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Post by Mickiel »

FourPart;1494863 wrote: What kind of answer is that?


How fittingly strange, the four words you decide to harp on, were not written or spoken by me.

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