the Rapture

[capt_buzzard]

Tell me more about this Rapture? I've never heard of it before. :-5

[capt_buzzard]

There has to be jugement first and this beast ect. Are they going to heaven before that?

[capt_buzzard]

plazul wrote: There's a Christian novel out there called, Left Behind, about Armageddon and the Rapture (I think). It's sold millions of copies and I think that gives some insight into what matters most to Christians.

The idea of the resurrection and an eternal after-life never mattered much to me. What matters to me is the humanity of Christ, not his divinity, and I don't understand people who visualize him as a shining diety descending from the clouds to establish the Kingdom of God.

What appeals to me about the real Jesus is that he got his hands dirty, felt real pain, fear, lust, anger, and the whole range of human emotions. he was a real *human being* who used his free will and the power of faith to resist temptation and perform miracles.

What good would his crucifixion have been if he had felt no pain? And how could he have expected us to resist temptation if he had used the will of a god to overcome it? And most importantly, what good would his faith and his unconditional love have been if it hadn't been human? That's what makes the story of Jesus so beautiful and inspiring.

Jesus truly was the Son of Man..... But what if the Son of man was just insane?

I've thought about that. What if Jesus was just a delusional man with a messiah complex? According to Roman records there was a messianic fervor in Gallilee in 70 A.D. and many radical revolutionaries came out of the region preaching about the end time and encouraging rebellion against Roman oppression. Maybe Jesus was one of them and maybe the story his life got turned into a highly embellished apocryphal myth to glorify the lost cause of the rebels.

If that were the case, I think the story of Jesus would be even more remarkable because it would mean that a crazy nobody from a backwater village in an agricultural province of Israel changed the course of human history on the sheer force of his personality. No divinity, just humanity.

If Jesus wasn't divine I don't think that should diminish the power of his message. That's the important thing. Not the coming of the Rapture.


And Jesus was a Jew right? And so was his family & friends? This christian thing did not start until much later and then Rome took over, The rest is history. What I really want to know is? Why there was nothing in the history books about this man Jesus down the centuries. If he really came back from the dead,and done the things they say he did?

[capt_buzzard]

And where did the name Jesus come from? Not many Jews or Arabs about the middle east with that name? Only in Spain.

[telaquapacky]

What’s the Rapture? At the second coming of Christ, at the end of the world, all the people who ever lived on earth, who are saved by God, will be transported to heaven all at once. This supernatural mass exodus of people from earth to heaven is something Bible students call the Rapture. The Bible doesn’t contain the word “rapture,” nor any Greek or Hebrew word that translates into “rapture.” Somebody just made up the word. But the event is explained by the Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. Paul says he didn’t make it up, but that Jesus taught about it.

“Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”

Jesus talked about it in John 14:2,3

“In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.”

And in John 6:40

“For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

And in Matthew 24:30,31

“At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

[Ted]

I have been doing a great deal of study both formally and informally concerning the historical Jesus. Now I don't know all of the arguments but Jesus is mentioned by Josephus and Tacitus and apparently a few other ancient writers as well as in several independently written scriptures.

Most Biblical and Theological scholars today no longer even bother with the question. Their feeling is that yes there was an historical Jesus.

Now as to why few others mentioned this man from the past, I can only offer a few suggestions. He was an Eastern Mediterranean Jewish peasant. That is he was born among the lowest class. I don't think any of these folks made the history books. He became a "trouble maker". These folks weren't written up in the history books they were cruicified and most of the time left for carrion. In some cases they were in fact burried.

Now as to why his resurrection was not mentioned in the history books; another good question. First of all we really do not know what happened at the "Easter"event. We are not really told any historical details. However, it must have been something quite powerful because the thoroughly mortified apostles had this very strong feeling that this Jesus was still with them. We can call this their experiential reality. They went from total fear to being willing to die for their cause. Now this experiential reality has been experienced by many millions down through two millenia. I too have had this experience. Not bad for an unknown Eastern Mediterranean Peasant, I would say. This questionable character has certainly caused major changes down throughout history.

My heavens who will remember two thousand years from now that I ever existed and I don't come from the poor class and I think that I have made a very valid contribution to my society during my life and career. I haven't been crucified yet, though I'm sure there are some who would like to. LOL

Shalom

Ted

[telaquapacky]

Ted wrote: Now as to why his resurrection was not mentioned in the history books; another good question.


I'd be careful with any history books that would mention as fact, the resurrection of Jesus. It's not the historian's job. What they teach us in history class is not actually what happened, but what people think happened, and their opinion of why it happened. What happens is History. What they teach us in school, and what historians write is more properly called "Historiography." Historiography is fascinating and useful, but I don't go to historiography books for the same reason I go to the Bible.

I visited The Garden Tomb in Jerusalem. I think that is the site of the tomb Joseph of Arimathea loaned to Jesus (He only needed it for one night ). The tomb is less than 100 meters from an old quarry site, a bluff of stone that has holes in it that suggest a face- like a skull. Could be Calvary? Today, Christians aren't allowed to walk on that hill because it's a Muslim cemetary, and to them, we're infidels. What I like about the people who run the Garden Tomb is that while they go to detail to explain why they believe their site is authentic, they don't insist they're right and everybody else is wrong. That is, they insist that the resurrection happened, but they don't insist that it happened at that particular site- only that it's the most likely known spot.

We take these things by faith. The most important thing to me is to believe that wherever it is, Jesus' tomb is empty because He resurrected. If Jesus is not resurrected, but a pile of dust somewhere, then likewise, I have nothing beyond this life to hope for.

[capt_buzzard]

There is rumours going about here in EU lands that the Pope in Rome has the true Bible,and that we only have a half baked version. That when it was first published, it only contained books that they thought fitting at that time. :-5

[telaquapacky]

capt_buzzard wrote: There is rumours going about here in EU lands that the Pope in Rome has the true Bible,and that we only have a half baked version. That when it was first published, it only contained books that they thought fitting at that time. :-5


I am told (correct me if I'm wrong) that serious, traditional Roman Catholics don't study the Bible at all, and they frown upon lay people studying it. I'm also told (ditto) that prior to Vatican II the RCC claimed that only their priests had the authority to interpret the Scriptures.

I take seriously all the places in the Bible where it encourages common, lay believers to study it out for themselves. I also have learned to trust God that if He wants us to study it for ourselves, He would make good enough versions available to us. In other threads, even serious Bible students agree that the versions we have aren't perfect- but they're good enough.

The Pope has a reason to pretend that he has a direct line to God that nobody else has because he wants everyone in the world to think that they have to go to him to get their doctrine right. He has a reputation to uphold, and he's certainly entitled to his opinion .

[koan]

Ted wrote:

Now as to why his resurrection was not mentioned in the history books; another good question. First of all we really do not know what happened at the "Easter"event. We are not really told any historical details. However, it must have been something quite powerful because the thoroughly mortified apostles had this very strong feeling that this Jesus was still with them. We can call this their experiential reality. They went from total fear to being willing to die for their cause. Now this experiential reality has been experienced by many millions down through two millenia. I too have had this experience. Not bad for an unknown Eastern Mediterranean Peasant, I would say. This questionable character has certainly caused major changes down throughout history.




Since you have mentioned a few times how the Bible was written in midrash (hope that is right) and literal interpretation is not intended, what various meanings do you think may have been intended by 'the rapture'? From my Freemasonry study (of them, not with them) I have heard the term midrash before and they mention that the miracles of raising from the dead were actually Jesus converting people to the Essene religion. People not of the religion were considered 'dead' and their conversion brought them to 'life'. Does this play into the descriptions of Rapture? Also the idea that there are many rooms in God's house, mansion, whatever...why do we only know of heaven and hell? What may the other rooms contain? Have you any info on that?

Also, I would love to know what your 'experiential reality' experience was!

:-6

[capt_buzzard]

telaquapacky wrote: I am told (correct me if I'm wrong) that serious, traditional Roman Catholics don't study the Bible at all, and they frown upon lay people studying it. I'm also told (ditto) that prior to Vatican II the RCC claimed that only their priests had the authority to interpret the Scriptures.

I take seriously all the places in the Bible where it encourages common, lay believers to study it out for themselves. I also have learned to trust God that if He wants us to study it for ourselves, He would make good enough versions available to us. In other threads, even serious Bible students agree that the versions we have aren't perfect- but they're good enough.

The Pope has a reason to pretend that he has a direct line to God that nobody else has because he wants everyone in the world to think that they have to go to him to get their doctrine right. He has a reputation to uphold, and he's certainly entitled to his opinion .


And you are right. Get ready for the Holy Roman Empire (One Church For all)revisited coming soon at a church near you. Sponsored by G.W.Bush.

[gmc]

capn buzzard

The rest is history. What I really want to know is? Why there was nothing in the history books about this man Jesus down the centuries. If he really came back from the dead,and done the things they say he did?


There are records from roman times that record the trial etc of JC, or of several who could possibly be jc The romans kept detailed records of trials etc and pontius pilate was known as a typically ruthless roman governer which is why the story he was mollifying the jewish establichment is probably a load of rubbish. He was commander of the occupying power for goodness sake. Jesus would have been just another messian type figure that would be executed as a potential trouble maker, nobody remembers all the others killed at the same time why would they remember JC particularly? It is only the later activities of the disciples Paul in particular that led to the forming of the christian church. Pontius pilate is only known because of his assiciarion to JC same with herod. Take JC out of the picture and they would only be known to keen historians.

How many of you know the story of cincinnatus for instance. there is an american city named after him but I wonder how many of its citizens even know who he was and what he did?